LIVE FROM THE BORDER: Breaking Down the Border with Chris Clem

Chris T. Clem, the former Chief Patrol Agent of the U.S. Border Patrol in Yuma, AZ, joined the Guy Benson Show today to discuss the latest from the southern border of the United States. Chris Clem discussed his experience with being a border patrol agent for nearly 28 years on the southern border. Clem and Benson also discussed the current numbers of illegal crossings on the southern border, and the pair compared the current border crisis to previous administration’s respective borders. Listen to the full interview below.

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Full transcript:

Guy Benson I’m Guy Benson. We’re back here on the Guy Benson show. We are in South Texas today. The McAllen area at the border, as we’ve been teasing for another program at Ground Zero, or at least one of the many ground zeroes of this crisis that we talk about on a regular basis, basically daily on this program. And I’m very pleased to welcome into the show here in studio with me, Chris Clem. He’s the former chief patrol agent of the US Border Patrol in Yuma, Arizona. Although he’s moved all across the region, he knows what he’s talking about. Chief, it is great to meet you earlier today and to have you here on the program.

Chris Clem Appreciate it. It’s great to meet you. And, what a great visit we’ve had so far.

Guy Benson Yeah, seeing a lot, learning a lot. And, you know, you come to the border once or twice if you’re like, okay, I got a handle on it. And then you go to a slightly different part of the border. The topography changes, the challenges change. This is one of the themes that you keep talking about. If you’ve been to even one part of one sector, that’s it. It does not apply those same lessons necessarily to other parts of the border. Before we get into all of that, just for the benefit of our audience, if you wouldn’t mind just running through your career, you were 27 plus years in the Border Patrol, starting as a trainee at the very bottom, then all the way up to sector chief. Just quickly tell us about that journey, just for your expertise and the sure, the credibility you bring to this conversation right now.

Chris Clem It was a great career. I started off as a as a young GS five Border Patrol trainee in Lordsburg, New Mexico, down there in the Boot Hill of New Mexico. Now, I’m from New Orleans, originally grew up in Houston. So for a city guy to go out to the desert. But I fell in love with it. You know, I loved being out there. Back in those days, in the early part of my career, it was mainly Mexican nationals, seasonal workers and drug mules. That’s who we were going after. Smuggling cases, things like. It was so much fun, you know, the, the chase was better than the catch sometimes, right? You were tracking all day long. You catch them and they’re like, well, now we got a process, right? So, so much fun.

Guy Benson When was that?

Chris Clem That was in the in the late 1990s. I came in in 1995 under the the Clinton administration. I moved around, promoted up to a senior position out in West Texas. I worked in Sierra Blanca, which was then part of the Marfa sector. It was mainly a checkpoint stage, but it was wide open terrain. So if I wasn’t working checkpoint, we were tracking tracking groups for miles, sometimes days to to catch them. Then I went back to New Mexico as a supervisor, and promoted up the ranks and began, commander, we called the patrol agent charge, of a station in New Mexico. Then I moved to, back to El Paso area command of the station there. Then I went to Arizona in 2010, and I was the patrol agent charged the Casa Grande station. And it’s important to talk about that because that was the busiest station in the nation in 2010. Tucson sector was was just crazy with with, migrant traffic, drug running. And it was all happening right there in Costa County. So I really earned my stripes, the years I was there in Casa Grande that got me up to Washington, DC, where I had oversight of, of operations, mainly Texas. And then, I became the deputy chief of the New Orleans sector. So a, a a little bit different dynamic of dealing with off the border, but yet, coastal operations and interior operations. And that ultimately got me back to Arizona and then to El Paso as the deputy chief. I was the number two for the El Paso was checking.

Guy Benson Off a lot of states.

Chris Clem Here. Yeah, yeah. So I’ve covered all of the southwest border, the, the yeah, the Gulf Coast and then Washington DC. The only place I didn’t work as an agent was the northern border. And, and I became a deputy chief in the senior executive, service, and, and El Paso was ground zero for a while. And in thousand and 18, 19, it was it was crazy. In El Paso, we were seeing thousands a day coming in there. It was it was, awesome. I had a short stint as an acting chief and Big Ben and then got the permanent position in Yuma. And I spent, a couple of years as the chief in Yuma. But I lived away from my wife and children, and, and I had, I had done my time and thought, you know what? You know it. Now it’s time to get out, because I wasn’t, like, in the direction that, this administration was taking. I expected some changes, but I didn’t expect this complete upheaval of what was probably the best border security apparatus we had in place in my career, and have it completely turn away. I had my time in I had 27 plus years, and, I was ready to retire.

Guy Benson You were.

Chris Clem Eligible? Eligible? So.

Guy Benson Yeah, I was out of here. I wasn’t.

Chris Clem Forced out. I was actually encouraged to stick around, by, by those at the headquarters level. But I thought what’s best for me and my family was for me to go ahead and retire.

Guy Benson And that was 2022.

Chris Clem Yes. December 31st, 2022. So I’ve been retired just over a year and a month. It’s been a great year and a month for me.

Guy Benson So one question before we get into the current crisis in the current policy. You were talking about how different areas, even in different states, ended up becoming the hot spots of any given six month stretch or two years or whatever it is. And it’s New Mexico, it’s Arizona, it’s this part of Texas. Why do certain areas get hot all of a sudden? Is that just the cartels saying we’re going to flood that zone for a while?

Chris Clem What? That’s exactly what it is. I mean, you go back to right before I came in, all the all the hot spots were California. I mean, that’s where, you know, Operation Gatekeeper started in the early 90s. That’s where the first infrastructure, the double layer fencing, all the, cameras. And, I mean, that’s where we kind of learned the model of what the right system is. That was an early 90s. We kind of replicated that in El Paso.

Guy Benson That’s a pretty small, relatively speaking. Yeah. Chunk of border it is.

Chris Clem California only has about 60, 70 miles of really international border where it’s intense. Maybe a little bit further. But back to your question. Yes. Currently in the way it’s always been is the, is the cartels control the flow of what comes into the country is when we’re talking about illegal entry. Some of that has to do with infighting within the cartels. Who’s going to, control one area? But, but, yeah, they see our chasing the soccer ball mentality that the federal government does about. Oh, well, there’s a problem here. Let’s shove everything over there. So what do they do that is run someplace else? So instead of having this consistent plan that we’ve had, this administration essentially just kind of follows the soccer ball and the cartels use that.

Guy Benson That reminds me of a point that we were just talking about earlier on our way over here. And I think it’s important for people to really understand at home. And it’s something that I did not until I came here in 22, probably around the time you were getting out. Yeah, I came down here for the first time to really look at it. I did not appreciate how sophisticated the cartels are, the scope of this operation. It’s not just, you know, a couple guys paying off some coyotes and, like, get some drugs in there if you can. This is a multi multi-billion dollar operation and it’s run by people who might be really bad, but they’re also really smart. And the stuff that we’re doing on this side of the border and our government saying, doing, etc., they pay attention to all of it and they adjust accordingly, right? I mean, that’s just the reality, you know?

Chris Clem Absolutely. So they’re definitely have a business model and very business savvy, right? They pay attention, especially as we are in election years and election cycles of what the rhetoric is. You know, if this person gets in, you know, it’s going to be harder. So let’s let’s start recruiting heavily right now. But the cartel is commodity neutral and they don’t care as long as they can make money. And they have realized that smuggling people, trafficking people is a win win business for them because they get most of the money up front. And the smugglers nowadays do not cross the border with the migrants that they’re smuggling. Back in the day, we would catch the smugglers, you know, walking and guiding a group or driving a group across the border. Now everything’s done online. Everything’s done, you know, through cell phones. They’ve made arrangements, they’ve paid some money upfront, or they’re going to pay money when they get to their location. The cartels have their tentacles all over the world. And so think about this. If they were running drugs, they would have to manufacture the drugs, cross the drugs, get the drugs to the end user and get the money and the proceeds back. All right. When you’re moving people, all you gotta do is get them to the border. And guess what? In this model and the way our government has responded is, well, we’ll just take everybody that gives up. Yeah, we’ll.

Guy Benson Finish the process for.

Chris Clem Them. And again, that’s another quote from former Secretary Jay Johnson. The U.S. government is completing the smuggling cycle. And basically that’s what we’re doing.

Guy Benson All right. So our guest here on the Guy Benson show from the border today is Chief Chris Clem, who’s just recently retired from Border Patrol career agent here. When we come back, since you have now invoked Jay Johnson, we quoted him on this show. This is the former DHS secretary under Obama. That number that he gave a thousand people crossing a day would be overwhelming. He said that’d be a crisis level. Well, we know, especially these last few years, been blowing past that on a regular basis. I want to talk about what that looks like. Sort of nitty gritty day to day, what it’s like for people in your position for 27 years and just try to put it into perspective over more than a quarter century of your experience, how bad it is today compared to even not that long ago. So that’s all to come. Chris Clem is with us here in studio at the border. I’m here with the Americans for Prosperity Foundation. Delighted to be here bringing you this information on the Guy Benson Show. Fascinating conversation continues right after this. America is listening to the Guy Benson show. We are halfway through today’s program here on the Guy Benson Show. Guy Benson is our website. The podcast is free as soon as the show is over. We’re broadcasting from Q RV, Am 710 here in McAllen, Texas, right at the border. I was actually south of the wall earlier today. Not technically in Mexico, because the border wall actually is a little bit inland, so to speak, in certain places. But we were south of the wall, right up against the river, and seeing with our own eyes this crisis that has gotten so much worse. As you all know, within the last three years under this administration, with me here in studio is Chief Chris Clem. He was the border chief, the station chief, the sector chief, I should say, in Yuma, Arizona, and had a long career leading up to that. So let’s put things into perspective, chief. You have seen through your career certain areas and you talked about this were okay. The crossings are really intense right now. Let’s put resources there. Let’s deal with that. The numbers, though, in the last three years. We talk about them here on the program a lot. It’s like people’s eyes glaze over. They are so huge. The magnitude of the crisis is unlike anything that we’ve seen. You’re a boots on the ground guy. Try to contextualize it from your perspective.

Chris Clem Yeah. So we had I started in 1995, as I mentioned, President Clinton. Every administration had leaned forward on border security. We were building wall, we were building infrastructure. We were adding personnel, strong policies. And it really kickstarted a lot under under President Trump where, you know, we had some challenges getting started. But once it started, you know, working we were building wall, we had access road, we had the technology. And the numbers started showing that especially with some of the policies like the Romania, Mexico or the Migrant Protection protocol, third party asylum agreements and you guys all know the numbers and I’ll round up a little bit. But I think in 2019 we had 900, just over 900,000 arrests with one. That dropped to just over 400,000 in 2020. We got a new administration. There’s executive actions and executive orders ending wall construction, by the way. So everybody knows the wall was just one piece of the puzzle. It was wall cameras, sensors, access, road and policy. He ended all of that. Biden. Biden did within the first hours and days of his administration. In fiscal year 21, those apprehensions went to 1.66 million. 22. It went up to like 2.4 million and then 23. If you play the nuance game between CBP and Border Patrol, it was still 2.4 million people, and we had over half a million gateways into those three years. So there’s close to nine plus million, almost 10 million people that we know of that have come in legally under this administration, close.

Guy Benson To 2 million of whom we got away with no idea who they are, where.

Chris Clem They are. Absolutely. And so that that goes back to the kind of the premise of the question when we had this system, this wall system, those requirements were identified by Border Patrol agents saying, this is what we need in the sector. Repeating thing. We’ve talked about this drip. If you’re you mentioned earlier, if you’ve seen one sector, you’ve seen one sector like we saw today, the river bending in Rio Grande Valley. I mean, you would you would need ten cameras to cover one mile. We’re out in the desert in Arizona. One camera could cover ten miles. So you can’t take this one size, that all approach. That’s why the border is complex. It’s dynamic. And the cartels know that. And they know that the federal government is typically slow to respond with, especially with big resources. So when they see attention going in one area, it’s easy for them to shift and go someplace else. Yeah, yeah.

Guy Benson Jay Johnson, who ran DHS under President Obama, was certainly at the time criticized by conservatives and border hawks. By comparison, looking back, he was a hawk himself relative to the current team and the current administration. No doubt about that. You were telling a story earlier about how the crisis during the Obama administration, about unaccompanied minors and family units, how that was treated, how that was reacted to by the Obama administration versus numbers that are way higher now under Biden. Tell us a bit about that.

Chris Clem Yeah, I will say this. And we invoke Jay Johnson. But it was very pragmatic in his thinking. He was solution and results oriented. I like the man as a secretary. Obviously when you see him testify, it’s kabuki theater up there. Any way you know that when you’re doing that. But when it came down to problems and looking for solutions, that military background, that military prosecutor mindset was there and I appreciated his attempts. So what we’re talking about is it was actually that leading up to Mother’s Day week in 2014, we were seeing just a huge influx.

Guy Benson A decade.

Chris Clem Ago. Yeah, a decade ago, under Obama and Vice President Biden. I think that’s important for people to know. It’s the same leadership, if you will. Leading up to Mother’s Day weekend, Rio Grande Valley, specifically, the McAllen station, was seeing a huge increase of unaccompanied children and families. And it was, I mean, literally hundreds of them. And we had we have no border Patrol stations were built for single adult men or short term holding, not care and process of children. That’s actually, by law, the responsibility to help and human services. So it’s overwhelmed. And we told the department on that Friday, they wanted to just wait for the Mother’s Day weekend. Let’s talk about it on Monday. We said, no, no, no. If you wait, you’re gonna have a full blown crisis. Actually, Jay Johnson and his wife diverted their trip and came down to McAllen. There’s a there’s a picture where he’s looking at all these children with the the mylar blankets. And he’s like. And he went back to Washington the very next day and basically issued a secretarial proclamation, which got all the DHS resources to say, hey, we’ve got an unaccompanied child price crisis. And later that week, the president, President Obama, made a proclamation say, hey, we’re going to take a full court press and we’re going to divert resources. And so we demanded, like health and Human Services to step up and open shelters.

Guy Benson We just when the kids in cages.

Chris Clem Yes. And by the way, that’s when we built the kids in cages. We built the cages here in McAllen. The first ones were built, an old warehouse. We had so many people, we had to get them out of brutal concrete holding cells. So the best thing you do with a warehouse for safety and security, both the migrants and the agents, is you use chain link divide and so we can see through it. So no one’s being assaulted or abused.

Guy Benson It was actually the images were kind of twisted.

Chris Clem Yeah, absolutely. That’s what they do. Right. That it was about the narrative.

Guy Benson And and they blame that on Trump even though it started under Obama, which is just an interesting footnote. But I think the more important story here, although the kids in cages optics, I think does matter. The origin story there, the way that the Obama administration, for all their faults, said this is a real problem.

Chris Clem Yes.

Guy Benson Compare that to what we’re seeing now and over the last three years, because it has totally dwarfed anything that you were seeing a decade ago.

Chris Clem Yeah. And I think a lot of the Border Patrol agents who, you know, were in the patrol during that time are seeing that same lot of familiar names in the administration now going, well, wait a second. What changed ten years ago, ten years ago, this was a crisis. Now you won’t even utter the words crisis. Now it’s a challenge. Ten years ago, you were doing a full court press to stop things. Now you’re seeing how quickly can you process and release people? It’s very frustrating and that, you know, and that’s what I think is kind of a big problem for. Or the border security, you know, enforcement agents. Right. We had support to to detain and remove. But I think to which is important is to give, you know, give context and credit. Remember, between Obama’s first term and second term, there was a big push for comprehensive immigration. And the conservatives said, we want border security. The, the administration said, well, we want comprehensive immigration. So they said, if you secure the border, we’ll give you the reform. So there was a reason for the Obama administration to work very hard at securing the border. And this unaccompanied children and the family that’s ever come in that was looking bad. So he had to fix.

Guy Benson That, jeopardizing his other political goals.

Chris Clem Right, right. And ultimately, it came down to semantics what the definition of a control is. Apparently we still hear that because we hear the border is secure, the border is closed, but we witness it every day that it’s not to the extent that it needs to be. Yeah. Not even close.

Guy Benson Because Johnson was saying a thousand day is overwhelming. Just two months ago, in December, it was more than 10,000 a day on average.

Chris Clem Right, right. Yeah. So think about this. And this is kind of funny. And I’m glad we’re talking about it. When I was in Yuma, in October, right before I got there in October 2020, we averaged 25 people an arrest. Those were good of.

Guy Benson The sector.

Chris Clem In the sector.

Guy Benson 25 a day.

Chris Clem That’s it. That’s fun. That’s that’s. Agents are having a blast. So November happens. We had an election. It went up to 34. All right. Not a big increase. No big deal. December it was close to 50 a day. January it was around 70 today. By May it was 500 day, and by the end of the year we average a thousand a day.

Guy Benson Oh my goodness.

Chris Clem And I only had.

Guy Benson To hold on, hold on, hold on. Let’s just it was before the election and right around the election, 25 a day. Yes. And within months it was a thousand a day.


Chris Clem Yes.

Guy Benson In your sector that you that you controlled.

Chris Clem That’s right. So when you look at I was coming and going, this is going to be awesome, right. This is going to be a great chief fun time being a Border Patrol chief. Do we have no support? The policies have been taken away. They stopped building the wall. And by the way, to include myself. And as chief, you’re not out there tracking and catching and processing every day. Now, that would be a luxury. We had just over 900 agents. You divide that across five stations, multiple shifts, days off. I mean, you’re looking at a on a fat day for us would be maybe 150 agents catching a thousand people a day. And that was one sector. And that’s why it is so important that we have to look, take a complete holistic approach, look at every sector challenges, every sector’s requirements. And that’s how we focus on getting this.

Guy Benson Because like the one size fits all top down thing from DC doesn’t really work in a lot of cases. I want to talk about the recently killed Senate bill, what can be done coming up in the next segment. But very quickly, before we go to break two stories, number one, we were talking about non-governmental organizations, NGOs, Catholic Charities and others. I understand in my heart that there are people who want to do good and want to help, and these are human beings coming across, and you don’t want anyone to starve or not have water or what have you. There also seems to be an element, though, with some of these NGOs where they are perpetuating the crisis almost as part of a business model. I know that sounds a little cynical. Maybe, but in your experience, is that true? Are you seeing groups that maybe say that they mean well, and maybe they do mean well? Ultimately, the money is flowing into their coffers from the feds or whomever to deal with the crisis that they are incentivized to kind of keep going. Is that too cynical?

Chris Clem No, no, it’s not cynical. I think it’s it’s very real. First of all, any law enforcement, whether you’re a Border Patrol agent or a domestic police officer, if you don’t put the well-being of human beings, first and foremost, you probably shouldn’t be doing this job. So, we’re all in this to take care of people, right? And we just do it, by securing the border and do a humanitarian response. The non-government organizations in many areas, especially where I was, Newman stepped up. They basically changed their business model to protect the community because the the numbers were so enormous for, you know, like Yuma that the food shelters, the domestic violence shelters, all of that would contribute to the citizenry. We’re taking all the resources to support the migrants. And so you had that NGO step up and say, hey, we’re going to help, but then you have some other ones, right, that are, you know, again, I don’t want a broad brush, but I will say that there are quite a few that are have some really big international connections and coffers and are in some of these source countries that we have seen that they are giving maps out and giving aid and encouraging the route of travel.

Guy Benson Giving migrants maps to get here.

Chris Clem Yes. And they’re they’re directly and indirectly connected to some of the non-government organizations here. And so that that is not I mean, that’s fact. We’ve seen the reports.

Guy Benson And one of the objections to that Senate bill was that it would further empower and fund some of these NGOs, which a lot of people view as at least to some extent, part of the problem in certain respects.

Chris Clem Well, they’re all getting they’re all getting paid, reimbursed, dollar for dollar from FEMA for every migrant that they take and help.

Guy Benson You replenish the money and top it up even more. Then, you know, the incentives speak for themselves very quickly. You left in 2022. You said you were encouraged by some people at Border Patrol to stay. I don’t think DHS in Washington would have wanted you to stay. You were telling about how Secretary Mayorkas would kind of send little minders down to try to really prevent you from giving interviews, and for a while they did, and then they wanted to sit in the room during interviews, they would tell TV stations, well, he didn’t mean that. Change this. We want you to use the DHS secretary’s talking points. That seems to be extremely inappropriate from a law enforcement perspective, but maybe it makes sense from a political narrative perspective, if that’s what the priority might be up there in.

Chris Clem DC, as we mentioned, their their priority was secure in their narrative, not the border. I, I did not have an adversarial relationship with Secretary my orcas and, it was kind of like the, the sheepdog and the wolf. Right. Good morning, Ralph Morton. Sam. And then they would, when we were in the room or talk about policies, we we would have disagreements, but we were professional and respectful. But I used to get frustrated when we finally got to be able to speak our mind and tell the facts. And, look, I, I was a career employee. I knew where the line was. I wasn’t going to cross it. But the facts are the story. And, and so, yeah, we’ve had I had a few of those kind of contentious host interview conversations with people. Well, you.

Guy Benson Didn’t want you sharing the facts with the.

Chris Clem Public, right? Absolutely. That’s it. Yeah. That’s what it come down to. You know, that’s not what we want. That’s not the message we want. But eventually, because I am true to myself and had maintain the integrity, I kept, the forward momentum and and they pretty much did. Well, we’ll let them continue to do that because not doing it became the narrative. If all of a sudden you, you gag me and shut down my social media and all that kind of stuff, people would notice. Yeah, would say, hey, why isn’t he talking? Why can’t we interview anymore?

Guy Benson Well, we’re interviewing him right now. Chris Clem was the sector chief in Yuma, Arizona, at the tail end of a 27 year plus career with Border Patrol. We are here at the border in McAllen, Texas, from the studios of Q, RV, Am 710. And when we come back, I do want to ask you about maybe quickly, some thoughts on real solutions that could work on the Guy Benson show. Next, it’s the Guy Benson Show partnering with Americans for Prosperity Foundation from the border today. Thank you for tuning in. Our guest for really most of this hour. Fascinating. Chris Clem, who was in Border Patrol for 27 years. He ended up as a sector chief in Arizona. But as we talked about two segments ago, he’s been all over this border. He knows what he’s talking about. Which brings me to political solutions. There was this Senate bill that died recently. I ended up being against it, but not sort of in a super heated way. I just ultimately didn’t trust the Biden administration to enforce anything that they don’t want to. There were other components of it that concerned me. People almost forget that H.R. two was passed by the House. That is the Republican bill that has gone absolutely nowhere. Of course, in the Democrat held Senate, there was Brandon Judd, for example, came out in favor of the Senate bill. He came on this show and said, here’s how it would improve things dramatically in these eight ways. He said, it’s not perfect. Well, it’s a moot point. It’s not going anywhere. But what do you think could actually realistically work between the Senate bill, the House bill, the president that happens to be in office right now, the vice president’s border czar. As you look at this, how would you sort of cobble together something that at least would be a dramatic improvement?

Chris Clem Yeah. I was disappointed that Senate bill, and, because it projected the numbers of when they were going to act, it basically presupposes that when it got to a number, we could we could actually do something. That that telegraphs, hey, 4000 a day. Once that hits that number, then we’re going to do something. Well. Here’s my problem with that is, as I mentioned, in a place like Yuma, if you send 1200 a day for 2 or 3 days, we’re completely swamped. But that would. But that would never trigger the the president’s actions to take further action. So you’re going to go ahead and drown one section and leave it wide open to the cartel because it meets your threshold. So I couldn’t stand that part of the Senate bill.

Guy Benson Well, and also it’s like they said, well, if we get to this threshold, then we’ll do all these things. Which tells me you can do all those things.

Chris Clem Absolutely. The only thing, the only thing I found that was important that I liked in the Senate bill was the Ice detention, because they are the necessary piece of consequences. What was also important, and I confess I didn’t read the whole bill, but it’s really what wasn’t in the bill. It did say mandatory detention for single adults. How long? Because you know it. You get three parties in high school. You’re going to get mandatory detention for three hours. So how long are those single adults going to stay in there? Is it really going to be a consequence? So maybe a short term solution give a little breathing room. And that’s maybe why Brandon Judd was in favor of that. But it didn’t have a long term security piece, which is why I like H.R. two, because it starts off right off the bat. The first 3 or 4, contents on the table is border security reinforced. Finish building the wall. Support the, the ports, back ice it somewhere between that piece and the Senate piece. Maybe we can find some common ground.

Guy Benson In between somewhere there. Because border enforcement, lasting enforcement, credibility restoration has to come first before any of this other stuff. That’s where I come down on it. Chris Clem, longtime Border Patrol agent and he was sector chief in Yuma, Arizona, here on the ground with us at the border in McAllen, Texas, on the Guy Benson Show. Chief, what a pleasure to have you here and to meet you.

Chris Clem A pleasure to meet you. Thank you for having me. And look forward to, maybe talking again.

Guy Benson Final hour of the Guy Benson show coming up next. We have some other fantastic guests here in studio as well. You don’t want to miss that. Straight ahead.