TRANS TALK ETIQUETTE: Guy Benson and Will Cain Debate the Issue

Will Cain, host of The Will Cain Show live on FOXNews.com at 12PM ET (Monday-Thursday) and co-host of Fox & Friends Weekend, joined The Guy Benson Show for a lively debate on pronoun usage. While Guy believes it’s generally polite to use someone’s preferred pronouns (within reason), Will argued that bending reality to personal preference isn’t something that we should do in society. The pair engaged in the discussion on today’s show, and you can listen to the full discussion (and the full podcast) below!

Listen to the full interview below:

Listen to the full podcast below:

Read the full transcript (automated) below:

GUY BENSON: We are back on the Guy Benson show with our colleague and our friend Will Cain. All right. Well, I want to talk to you about something. I don’t know if you saw it. I had a tweet the other night about just kind of laying down some markers about how I feel on all the trans stuff, for lack of a better term. Because I’m seeing a lot of people fighting about it. And I realized, okay, well, I actually agree with some of this, but I don’t agree with all of it. And I just kind of laid out that’s. How I view it.

WILL CAIN: Okay, I saw it.

GUY BENSON: So there are a few examples of what’s cropping up in our society these days. There was a confrontational meeting in Illinois at a school board meeting, because I guess some middle school girls were upset when there was a biological male who now identifies as a female. Access to their locker room has male body parts. They drew those concerns to the attention of administrators, who then scolded them. The girls got in trouble for saying that they were not comfortable with that situation. Right. I think that is absolutely insane. On the other hand, I saw the whole hullabaloo in Congress the other day where the one trans member of Congress, I guess, from Delaware. A Democrat was called Mister by a Republican and the Democrats objected. The whole thing blew up, and eventually they adjourn the meeting because it was so much chaos. I’m like, could you just call the person representative McBride? If you don’t want to use a pronoun or a name or whatever, can’t you at least try to be polite to someone? And there’s a lot of people on the right saying, no, it’s not polite to indulge a fantasy, and you should tell the truth. And I have made my position clear on this, and I talked about it just a moment ago. How do you because you talk about authenticity. How do you navigate these waters? Because a lot of these discussions are things we weren’t even talking about ten, 15 years ago. But now it’s right up in our faces all the time.

WILL CAIN: Well, I really like you taking this on, and I didn’t hear you before I jumped on here. And I’ll be real. You had, like, a ten point thing. Yeah, it.

GUY BENSON: Was a lot. It was a lot.

WILL CAIN: And I don’t remember at the end of your ten point thing, you jumped in on a debate between Tomi Lahren and is the other one. I know Stedman. Is that who it is?

GUY BENSON: Yes. And Allie Beth Stuckey was in there, too. It’s is three ladies.

WILL CAIN: They were debating whether or not you should use he or she of preference. The pronoun of preference.

GUY BENSON: Right? Correct. That’s how it started. And I don’t know what shot.

WILL CAIN: Among your ten. I don’t remember if you did. If you did, I don’t remember. Where are you on that? And I’ll tell you where I am.

GUY BENSON: I am mostly with Tomi Lahren, which is within reason. I try to accommodate an adult who wishes to be called by a name. That’s what I want to do for that person.

WILL CAIN: Okay. But that’s that’s different. So I’m, I so I think Tomi was saying she will use the pronoun of their choice, he or she. Right. And then the other people jumped in and were like, no, that’s not the right.

GUY BENSON: Well, which is fine, because like, so Caitlyn Jenner has been on this show. Right. And when I have Caitlyn Jenner on the show, I refer to her as she. Even though Caitlyn Jenner is also cool talking about Bruce Jenner and the days of Bruce Jenner and the athletic exploits and all of that. And and doesn’t get all spun up if someone uses the wrong pronoun here or there. I love that attitude from Caitlyn Jenner. So I on this show, when she’s here, call her Caitlyn.

WILL CAIN: Okay.

GUY BENSON: As a as a as a reference point.

WILL CAIN: Well okay. That’s. So we’re not going to have disagreement on that. And I’m going to try to push us to where I don’t know if we do. And I’m going to tell you. So here’s my thing where I am and I, I don’t think there are some I can look everyone who’s listening in the eye and say, I honestly, I’m not driven out of any sense of malice or attempt to be rude or or provocative, even not no interest in being provocative on this. I will call you by your name of your choice. I’ll call Caitlin. Caitlin. I’ll call Ali. Ali. You know, that’s the from coming to America right there, the Cassius Clay verse Muhammad Ali debate. Right, momma name Clay. I call him Clay, you know. No, you have a right to change your name. You can be you can be. Your proper noun can be whatever it is of your choosing.

GUY BENSON: And by the way, just to jump in and it’s a completely different circumstance. But our vice president of the United States had a different name at his birth, and I don’t insist on calling him that. I actually don’t know it off the top of my head. He’s changed his name, I think, a few times for various reasons, but he wants to be called JD Vance, and so he is J.D. Vance. That’s what we that’s what we refer to him out because he’s an adult who prefers to be called that. And that’s his. That’s his name.

WILL CAIN: But I will not use your pronoun of choice. And this is my thing. Like, you have a right to your subjective world. And if you want me to call you the name that you so choose, I will do so. But you don’t have a right to change or alter objective reality. And I don’t think it’s provocative or rude to say you don’t get to just be a she by declaring you’re a she, and therefore I will reflect fidelity to the English language and reality. Those are the two things that I hold true to. Now, let me tell you something. It ain’t easy. You know, like if I have a friend who has a kid who’s going through this.

GUY BENSON: Well, hang out, let me let’s let’s not go into a personal realm. Let’s talk about. So Caitlyn Jenner is a colleague here at Fox, right. And and is again, pretty chill about all of this.

WILL CAIN: So Caitlyn was sitting with me right now. What would I do?

GUY BENSON: You would say.

WILL CAIN: I called I just said it to I just said I’d call him Caitlyn.

GUY BENSON: Caitlyn you’d call him.

WILL CAIN: You heard me. Yeah, right. So I’d call him Caitlin. I’m going to call him by the name that he so chooses, but I’m not going to change reality in the pronoun by his whim and a whim. Sounds too dismissive. But whatever. Subjective choice right now. But you you perfectly appropriate to push me. If I’m sitting here with Caitlin, what will I do? And I don’t know. You know, what I probably would do is own it. I would probably say, Caitlin, here’s my thing. This is how I’m comfortable doing this. I’m not comfortable using her. I don’t even know how much will come up in the context of this conversation. I don’t know why I’ll be using your pronouns as we go along. I’m not looking to be provocative.

GUY BENSON: If I was in the room, you’d be like, well, what she just said or what he just said, right? Right. And that person is called Caitlin and wants to be called Caitlin is sitting there in a dress and it.

WILL CAIN: Comes off as provocative, like, I’m trying to be rude to you.

GUY BENSON: And I think that, by the way, was the case in that congressional explosion where they went the Republican went out of his way to say Mr.. Like, I think that was trying to get attention and be provocative and be honestly a jerk about it. I think that was the point.

WILL CAIN: In that situation, Guy. I would have probably chosen do what you said. I would have said representative. I would. And if we’re being real, that’s me avoiding it. I’m avoiding the whole thing by doing that. Maybe I’m right to avoid it. Maybe I’m wrong to avoid it, but I don’t. I don’t go through the world looking to be rude or provocative to people I don’t, but I also don’t think that they should get to dictate the reality around me.

GUY BENSON: Yeah. I mean, I also think I reject the idea that trans women are women, right? Women are women. Trans women are trans women, right? Who are biological males who identify as women. And if that’s the choice you want to make as an adult, and you’re not being completely absurd about it with all these rules and these little, you know, tripwires for everyone, and you’re on hair trigger alert to attack, I am willing to accommodate that, even if it’s just for the purpose of being basically polite in human interaction. I think where we start seeing that abuse, where we start trying to uproot the entire English language and banish basic words like woman or mother, that’s the line that I draw, which is different than the one you’re drawing.

WILL CAIN: Would you do this for all? Pronouns of choice or just she her C has a bunch.

GUY BENSON: More, right? There’s I do believe. And this is again, these are kind of like subjective judgments. I think if you’re demanding that you are he they or zir sheep or whatever it’s going to be, I’m not playing those games.

WILL CAIN: Well, I know a personal example. Okay, this is a trans and this is a kid. And that’s always hard, right? So the kid is choosing to be they. So if they were here you would you you would say they for them the whole time.

GUY BENSON: It’s really hard. It’s grammatically hard.

WILL CAIN: So I think but but but it’s not just grammar. You’re saying that because you know, objective reality is it. They is a plural and you’re not willing to bend the objective reality of that grammar to accommodate that person?

GUY BENSON: Well, it’s like referring to one person is your it gets very confusing. It’s all or all you all to me, if there’s all involve, is more than one person. And trying to even like when you’re trying to talk about someone with they them pronouns, it becomes almost impossible to communicate clearly who you’re even talking about because. Plural. Whereas with he or she based on their identity, I think that’s easier to navigate. It’s not perfect. It’s not totally clean.

WILL CAIN: But it’s easy. The problem is okay, and obviously they is the least insane version of this that gets more. We know that whatever you said like Zeus.

GUY BENSON: Jim.

WILL CAIN: When he got it, when there was one turtle, the day when my I.

GUY BENSON: Saw a turtle, I did see the turtle. So that’s. You see, the thing is, that’s a troll. And I don’t respect that.

WILL CAIN: Okay. But my point is, you’ve drawn a line guy, and I. And I can hear you. I feel like I know what you’re doing, and you instinctually are where I am. You will not alter objective reality in this case. Grammar of the difference between singular and plural for someone. So you’ve drawn a line for yourself. But what? The point I’m getting at is you’re going to do this other thing, which is use their pronoun out of politeness. But you have with that step of divorced yourself, from from reality, in service of politeness. And I’m just saying your line is arbitrary. It’s hard when you go arbitrary because it can keep shifting, you know, slippery slope, all that, but you just it’s easier to say. Here’s the thing, man. I’m not being rude. The objective line, the line I draw is reality. And that’s. And then they’re like, well, then you’re not acknowledging my reality. You know, you can have your reality and I’ll call you by your name that you choose. But once I do this.

GUY BENSON: Is that arbitrary? Because you’re letting them make certain choices but not others about how they’re referred to? Is that not partially arbitrary in a line you’re drawing slightly differently than the one I.

WILL CAIN: Am, I guess, but it’s just so much just done all the time. Like I don’t have a problem, you know, like you said, Jade or Muhammad Ali and Cassius Clay, and it’s just done all the time, you know.

GUY BENSON: And I’m not I’m not attacking your position at all. I’m just saying, don’t worry.

WILL CAIN: I’m not defensive.

GUY BENSON: I love I think the lines I think the lines can be drawn different places by different people. And I just the reason I kind of randomly, late at night put out the tweets, because I had seen that exchange that I screenshot that you’re talking about Tomi Lahren and Allie, Beth and Inez. And I was like, okay, there are so many different moving parts of this. I’m just going to put all of my thoughts in one place because it had been bothering me, because I felt like some of the stuff conservatives are getting really mad at. I was like, I don’t think this is the important battle to be fighting.

WILL CAIN: I think this I had this with my wife. Like niceness is a good value, but it’s not the ultimate value in niceness.

GUY BENSON: It’s not the only value.

WILL CAIN: It can’t pull you into otherwise. Empathy. These are all like things you should have a part of your life, but they can’t be your only guiding light in Christ.

GUY BENSON: So kindness, right? And reality and truth and sensitivity, all of these things sort of coexist in a messy way, right? And that’s what I’m navigating here. And I suspected that you probably had at least a slightly different view than I do, which you do, which is why I wanted to have this discussion just for the audience so people can think about this for themselves as well, because it’s not the most important issue in our society by any stretch. But it is an issue in our society that we’re talking about a lot these days. And I knew you would be number one thoughtful. Number two, here’s the word again authentic, which is why we appreciate your time. Always will.

WILL CAIN: Thank you.

GUY BENSON: Guy on the Guy Benson show. We’ll talk soon.

WILL CAIN: All right.