What's the controversy? seems fair. If the business has the right to discriminate against customers, then customers have the right to discriminate against businesses.
truth. But question on everybody's mind here is whether or not they should get sued for it. I'm a Christian and if I were a baker, I would probably not want to engage in any part of a gay marriage simply because my beliefs would be contradicting my actions.
Am I a bigot and should that be considered a violation of legal discrimination standards in the same way as if someone refused to bake a wedding cake for, say, a mixed-race couple?
This discussion leads directly into a deeper debate about civil rights…could be a loooong night hahaha
David M. McMahon Very good question which i also had on my mind. If a Christian baker can deny service to a gay couple based on religious beliefs, could they also deny a cake for a Jewish person? The answer is legally no. Both are protected groups against discrimination. Personally i think religious objections are just a cop-out to protect personal bigotry or dislike- nonetheless, legally both are wrong
@David M. McMahon –This basically brings up the questions that if religious bigotry/discrimination/prejudice is NOT valid for blacks, women, jews, muslims, interracial couples, red-heads, and the left-handed, why is it ok for LGBT individuals? (Keep in mind in the past religious objections have been brought against each one of those groups.)
Tony Lamar Ivey It is true that the groups you mentioned have been discriminated against by religious people, and it is certainly true that such discrimination is evil and groundless. However, one thing I notice about all of those groups is that to be black, to be a red-head, to be a Jew–in every one of those situations a person is born into those circumstances. It is who they are, not what the have chosen to do. My argument is that homosexuality really has no place in the civil rights movement because it is a choice; it is not a pre-existing, unchangeable condition like being born to two African-American parents.
Tony Lamar Ivey For that Christian baker, not selling that couple that cake was not a matter of discrimination; far from it: any real Christian chooses deliberately to love that homosexual couple because Christ commands them to. (Yes, it is possible and has been seen throughout history that Christians have not always lived out their calling, but bear with me.) What that baker is trying to do is to avoid encouraging a behavior that they consider by the Bible to be not only sinful but self-destructive (see Romans 1). It would be the same as handing an abusive alcoholic a bottle of Jack Daniels. For a Christian it is irresponsible and sinful to encourage sin in others.
David M. McMahon- ah and here we have the crux of the issue- "Being gay is a choice" Heres the thing David: Despite the 40 yrs of scientific evidence, the reputation of every major professional medical organization, and most of the common sense logic that all says that being gay is not a choice and is a result of biology; it is still irrelevant. Being Jew is a choice. You aren't born into an interracial relationship. Those are choices but it is still wrong to discriminate.
David M. McMahon- I'm a Christian too, David, but that comparison is offensive and false analogy. Plus, your rationale works the same for religious intolerance. By your assessment, a Christian baker should deny a cake for a Bar Mitzah because is encourages the 'sinful and self-destructive' lifestyle of being Jewish which leads to eternity in hell
Tony Lamar Ivey #1. While it is a choice whether or not a Jew wants to continue in the practices of Judaism, that doesn't change their inherent ethnicity; that's not a choice.
#2. Every person is born with certain proclivities or tendencies. It can be shown that certain people (to build off my earlier illustration) are born more likely to drink too much; that does not condemn them to a life of alcohol addiction, cirrhosis of the liver, etc…Likewise I still argue that being gay is, at root, a choice. If that were not the case, then it would be impossible for a person to cease from homosexual behavior and desires. However, I personally know a few people in that position (for a more famous example, look up a guy named Donnie McClurkin).
Tony Lamar Ivey- And you are right. I wasn't born into an interracial relationship (lol). But if the Bible told me that I shouldn't be dating outside my race, I wouldn't, because according to my (and that baker's) faith, disobeying God's Word is a sin. Fortunately for Krystal and me, the Bible instead implies that race is totally irrelevant (the Book of Ruth, Acts 17:26, Revelation 5:9) and that all the peoples of the earth are the same.
I guess my larger point is that as Christians, our battle is not against gay people, who were created in God's image just as much as I was. Our battle is against homosexuality, which God's Word tells us is sin, just like adultery, theft, and disobedience to one's parents while under their authority (see Romans 1). I wouldn't help a thief steal, cover for someone cheating on his wife, or encourage a boy to disobey his mother; so why would I encourage two homosexuals in their efforts to do something I am convinced is wrong?
Tony, if you don't believe the way I do, I totally understand why we disagree; just trying to help you understand the reasoning behind some of the things we Christians do (or not do).
David M. McMahon – Read up on Supreme Court case Loving v. Virginia- apparently God didn't want you in an interracial relationship because he put races on separate continent. ( thats actually an accepted argument that prevailed at the time) The Bible says lot of thing we no longer believe ( The Earth is the center of the solar system, don't cut your hair, no contraception, no polyester, etc) Why hang on to the views on gay people now that we scientifical know otherwise. All i'm saying is don't use religion to support bigotry. It doesn't work for women, jews, or muslims, why should it work for gays. Plus it reflects poorly on your judgment and the religion itself. BTW whats "wrong" about being gay. If two guys are in a loving relationship- doesn't effect me. I think love is love- isn't that what Jesus was all about- love?
David M. McMahon – Look David, all im trying to say is calling gay's sinful based on religion is no different then calling women inferior to men (" The head of the man is God, and the head of the women is the man") or supporting slavery. All are/were Biblically held beliefs. What makes you different than chauvinists or 18th century slavery advocates that used the bible? How bout we just treat everyone equally with respect instead of using religion to justify hate
btw i used to completely have you position on homosexuality ("Our battle is against homosexuality, which God's Word tells us is sin…") That is until i say how the Bible had historically been used for bigotry for nearly every group. Not saying the Bible doesn't have good stuff- but everything should be evaluated instead of blindly followed.
Tony Lamar Ivey I appeal to the authority of Scripture, not the authority of the Supreme Court. The Bible actually doesn't say anything about the location of the earth vs. the sun. The Scripture I'm sure you're referring to about contraception (Genesis 38) is about selfishness and hatred, not condoms. The no haircut thing only applied to certain people at certain times, and the woven cloth scripture from the Old testament was ceremonial and symbolic. Such ceremonial traditions (including animal sacrifice) were made unnecessary by the finished work of Christ at Calvary, as pointed out by the apostle Paul in the book of Galatians…and I hope I don't have to point out that slavery was defeated in America BECAUSE of the Bible, not in spite of it.
It is not God's fault that His Word has been abused at times through the ages, and that fact does not detract from the truth in it.
I am not arguing for hatred or bigotry, against gays, Muslims, or anyone else. Nor does the Bible. What the Bible does say, as you pointed out, is that Christians should love and respect everyone. (Whether or not people who claim Christianity actually do that consistently is another matter entirely. I can do my very best to live in the love of Christ. I cannot and will not defend hypocrites.)
As for the fact that one person's homosexuality does not affect me: true. No argument there. The point is not about me, it's about that homosexual (or that adulterer, or that thief, or that bratty kid) and his/her relationship with God, which is negatively affected by their sin. Jesus loved us so strongly that He would have us turn to His grace in order to cease from sin, not continue in it.
And yeah, bigotry is wrong! I would go to a birthday party with that gay guy, or hang out with him, talk to him, and treat him with respect as God's creation whom He loves, without question. But essentially what this baker is being asked to do is sell the Koran from a Christian book store. It's signing off on something she just does not believe in.
David M. McMahon -He's the bottom line- Using the Bible to gay sinful, is the SAME as doing it call Women stupid, or Blacks cursed ( Curse of ham) No matter how you justify it. Truth is, we now know sexuality is biological controlled as seen in humans and animals. Calling gay sinful now sounds just as crazy as calling red-heads witches
But honestly you've already given me your answer. Basically because you feel the Bible says being gay is a sin, absolutely no scientific, logically, or social evidence will convince you otherwise. I still don't see the difference between you and a anti-Semite or a chauvinist. Talking about "on no, that was for that time" is just your interpretation of the Bible. FYI a growing number of Christian theologians and pastors are now seeing gay being sinful as a mis-interperatation.
Tony Lamar Ivey Anti-Semites actually hate/fear the Jews, and chauvinists actually despise and disrespect women. I'm afraid I don't see the comparison between them and my attitude toward homosexuals. But thanks for the conversation Tony, it's always good and refreshing to have an honest but respectful discussion with people who you disagree with. God bless.
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What's the controversy? seems fair. If the business has the right to discriminate against customers, then customers have the right to discriminate against businesses.
truth. But question on everybody's mind here is whether or not they should get sued for it. I'm a Christian and if I were a baker, I would probably not want to engage in any part of a gay marriage simply because my beliefs would be contradicting my actions.
Am I a bigot and should that be considered a violation of legal discrimination standards in the same way as if someone refused to bake a wedding cake for, say, a mixed-race couple?
This discussion leads directly into a deeper debate about civil rights…could be a loooong night hahaha
David M. McMahon Very good question which i also had on my mind. If a Christian baker can deny service to a gay couple based on religious beliefs, could they also deny a cake for a Jewish person? The answer is legally no. Both are protected groups against discrimination. Personally i think religious objections are just a cop-out to protect personal bigotry or dislike- nonetheless, legally both are wrong
@David M. McMahon –This basically brings up the questions that if religious bigotry/discrimination/prejudice is NOT valid for blacks, women, jews, muslims, interracial couples, red-heads, and the left-handed, why is it ok for LGBT individuals? (Keep in mind in the past religious objections have been brought against each one of those groups.)
Tony Lamar Ivey It is true that the groups you mentioned have been discriminated against by religious people, and it is certainly true that such discrimination is evil and groundless. However, one thing I notice about all of those groups is that to be black, to be a red-head, to be a Jew–in every one of those situations a person is born into those circumstances. It is who they are, not what the have chosen to do. My argument is that homosexuality really has no place in the civil rights movement because it is a choice; it is not a pre-existing, unchangeable condition like being born to two African-American parents.
Tony Lamar Ivey For that Christian baker, not selling that couple that cake was not a matter of discrimination; far from it: any real Christian chooses deliberately to love that homosexual couple because Christ commands them to. (Yes, it is possible and has been seen throughout history that Christians have not always lived out their calling, but bear with me.) What that baker is trying to do is to avoid encouraging a behavior that they consider by the Bible to be not only sinful but self-destructive (see Romans 1). It would be the same as handing an abusive alcoholic a bottle of Jack Daniels. For a Christian it is irresponsible and sinful to encourage sin in others.
David M. McMahon- ah and here we have the crux of the issue- "Being gay is a choice" Heres the thing David: Despite the 40 yrs of scientific evidence, the reputation of every major professional medical organization, and most of the common sense logic that all says that being gay is not a choice and is a result of biology; it is still irrelevant. Being Jew is a choice. You aren't born into an interracial relationship. Those are choices but it is still wrong to discriminate.
David M. McMahon- I'm a Christian too, David, but that comparison is offensive and false analogy. Plus, your rationale works the same for religious intolerance. By your assessment, a Christian baker should deny a cake for a Bar Mitzah because is encourages the 'sinful and self-destructive' lifestyle of being Jewish which leads to eternity in hell
Tony Lamar Ivey #1. While it is a choice whether or not a Jew wants to continue in the practices of Judaism, that doesn't change their inherent ethnicity; that's not a choice.
#2. Every person is born with certain proclivities or tendencies. It can be shown that certain people (to build off my earlier illustration) are born more likely to drink too much; that does not condemn them to a life of alcohol addiction, cirrhosis of the liver, etc…Likewise I still argue that being gay is, at root, a choice. If that were not the case, then it would be impossible for a person to cease from homosexual behavior and desires. However, I personally know a few people in that position (for a more famous example, look up a guy named Donnie McClurkin).
Tony Lamar Ivey- And you are right. I wasn't born into an interracial relationship (lol). But if the Bible told me that I shouldn't be dating outside my race, I wouldn't, because according to my (and that baker's) faith, disobeying God's Word is a sin. Fortunately for Krystal and me, the Bible instead implies that race is totally irrelevant (the Book of Ruth, Acts 17:26, Revelation 5:9) and that all the peoples of the earth are the same.
I guess my larger point is that as Christians, our battle is not against gay people, who were created in God's image just as much as I was. Our battle is against homosexuality, which God's Word tells us is sin, just like adultery, theft, and disobedience to one's parents while under their authority (see Romans 1). I wouldn't help a thief steal, cover for someone cheating on his wife, or encourage a boy to disobey his mother; so why would I encourage two homosexuals in their efforts to do something I am convinced is wrong?
Tony, if you don't believe the way I do, I totally understand why we disagree; just trying to help you understand the reasoning behind some of the things we Christians do (or not do).
David M. McMahon – Read up on Supreme Court case Loving v. Virginia- apparently God didn't want you in an interracial relationship because he put races on separate continent. ( thats actually an accepted argument that prevailed at the time) The Bible says lot of thing we no longer believe ( The Earth is the center of the solar system, don't cut your hair, no contraception, no polyester, etc) Why hang on to the views on gay people now that we scientifical know otherwise. All i'm saying is don't use religion to support bigotry. It doesn't work for women, jews, or muslims, why should it work for gays. Plus it reflects poorly on your judgment and the religion itself. BTW whats "wrong" about being gay. If two guys are in a loving relationship- doesn't effect me. I think love is love- isn't that what Jesus was all about- love?
David M. McMahon – Look David, all im trying to say is calling gay's sinful based on religion is no different then calling women inferior to men (" The head of the man is God, and the head of the women is the man") or supporting slavery. All are/were Biblically held beliefs. What makes you different than chauvinists or 18th century slavery advocates that used the bible? How bout we just treat everyone equally with respect instead of using religion to justify hate
btw i used to completely have you position on homosexuality ("Our battle is against homosexuality, which God's Word tells us is sin…") That is until i say how the Bible had historically been used for bigotry for nearly every group. Not saying the Bible doesn't have good stuff- but everything should be evaluated instead of blindly followed.
Tony Lamar Ivey I appeal to the authority of Scripture, not the authority of the Supreme Court. The Bible actually doesn't say anything about the location of the earth vs. the sun. The Scripture I'm sure you're referring to about contraception (Genesis 38) is about selfishness and hatred, not condoms. The no haircut thing only applied to certain people at certain times, and the woven cloth scripture from the Old testament was ceremonial and symbolic. Such ceremonial traditions (including animal sacrifice) were made unnecessary by the finished work of Christ at Calvary, as pointed out by the apostle Paul in the book of Galatians…and I hope I don't have to point out that slavery was defeated in America BECAUSE of the Bible, not in spite of it.
It is not God's fault that His Word has been abused at times through the ages, and that fact does not detract from the truth in it.
I am not arguing for hatred or bigotry, against gays, Muslims, or anyone else. Nor does the Bible. What the Bible does say, as you pointed out, is that Christians should love and respect everyone. (Whether or not people who claim Christianity actually do that consistently is another matter entirely. I can do my very best to live in the love of Christ. I cannot and will not defend hypocrites.)
As for the fact that one person's homosexuality does not affect me: true. No argument there. The point is not about me, it's about that homosexual (or that adulterer, or that thief, or that bratty kid) and his/her relationship with God, which is negatively affected by their sin. Jesus loved us so strongly that He would have us turn to His grace in order to cease from sin, not continue in it.
And yeah, bigotry is wrong! I would go to a birthday party with that gay guy, or hang out with him, talk to him, and treat him with respect as God's creation whom He loves, without question. But essentially what this baker is being asked to do is sell the Koran from a Christian book store. It's signing off on something she just does not believe in.
"Why hang on to the views on gay people now that we scientifical know otherwise." My objection on that point has not been effectively answered.
David M. McMahon -He's the bottom line- Using the Bible to gay sinful, is the SAME as doing it call Women stupid, or Blacks cursed ( Curse of ham) No matter how you justify it. Truth is, we now know sexuality is biological controlled as seen in humans and animals. Calling gay sinful now sounds just as crazy as calling red-heads witches
But honestly you've already given me your answer. Basically because you feel the Bible says being gay is a sin, absolutely no scientific, logically, or social evidence will convince you otherwise. I still don't see the difference between you and a anti-Semite or a chauvinist. Talking about "on no, that was for that time" is just your interpretation of the Bible. FYI a growing number of Christian theologians and pastors are now seeing gay being sinful as a mis-interperatation.
Tony Lamar Ivey Anti-Semites actually hate/fear the Jews, and chauvinists actually despise and disrespect women. I'm afraid I don't see the comparison between them and my attitude toward homosexuals. But thanks for the conversation Tony, it's always good and refreshing to have an honest but respectful discussion with people who you disagree with. God bless.
Mr Baker continue to do what is right in the sight of God, He will watch over you.