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U.S. soldiers assigned to Camp Marmal in northern Afghanistan said the removal of a cross from an Army chapel has created a “huge controversy” and at least one soldier called it a “direct attack against Christianity and Judaism.”
A Pentagon spokesman told Fox News & Commentary that the cross was removed after someone complained. He also said the cross violated Army regulations.
“Military chapels have to be open to all denominations and as such can’t have permanent symbols of one particular religion or another,” said Commander Williams Speaks.
The chapel is used for general Protestant services and a Baptist church service. There is a smaller chapel used for other services. The camp also has a mosque and a German chapel that is used for Catholic services.
Speaks said the cross was erected about a month ago – but when questions were raised the Army unit’s chaplain consulted the rules and “realized that taking it down was the appropriate thing to do.”
Army Regulation 165-1, 12-3k states:”The chapel environment will be religiously neutral when the facility is not being used for scheduled worship. Portable religious symbols, icons, or statues may be used within a chapel during times of religious worship.”
“Symbols are to be moved or covered when not in use during services. Distinctive religious symbols, such as crosses, crucifixes, the Star of David, Menorah, and other religious symbols will not be affixed or displayed permanently on the chapel interior, exterior, or grounds. Permanent or fixed chapel furnishings, such as the altar, pulpit, lectern, or communion rail will be devoid of distinctive religious symbols.”
A soldier stationed at Camp Marmal contacted Fox News & Commentary and said soldiers are very upset that the cross was removed.
“My personal feeling is that it is a direct attack against Christianity and Judaism,” said the soldier who asked not to be identified. “When you look at the regulation and you notice the four items directly quoted are crosses, crucifixes, the Star of David and the Menorah.”
The Army regulation makes no specific mention of the wheel of Dharma, Pentagram, Pentacle, Star and Crescent or the Yin and Yang symbol, he noted.
“There is a huge controversy about the cross removal,” the soldier said. “There are several like myself who never knew such a regulation existed and are speaking out about it.”
However, Speaks said there had been complaints.
“I’ve also heard that there were some that were upset about the cross to begin with,” he told Fox News. “Our job as military service members is to abide by the UCMJ and other regulations to ensure that all religious denominations and religions of our service members are treated fairly.
And that is accomplished by taking down the Christian symbol?
Speaks said it is his understanding that the rule applies not just to that particular camp – but all military chapels.
Some conservative leaders said it’s proof of an effort underway to sanitize the military and country of Christianity.
“What’s the purpose of a chapel?” asked Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. “The timing of this – what a way to celebrate Thanksgiving.”
“There’s a sole purpose of a chapel and it’s to worship – whether it’s Catholic or Protestant. Americans who serve in the military are overwhelmingly Christian.”
The soldier said the military is not hostile towards religion. Instead, he called it a direct attack from secularists and atheists.
“If they are able to erase Christian symbols from the military, then it can be pushed to be erased in the private sector,” he said. However, rules are rules, he said – and in spite of his personal beliefs the soldier said he will follow Army regulations.
“As a soldier, I will follow the orders,” he said.
“My fight is not to have the cross put back up,” the solider told Fox News. “My fight is to have the regulation changed. My God is bigger than a wooden cross and I don’t need to defend Him.”
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Place religious symbols of all the worlds known religions in all Military chapels. USN, USAF, USA, All USN and USCG Ships have a designated place for worship services, lets be fair now and put up all known religious symbols so as not to piss anyone off… Retired Military Guy.
I understand where you are coming from but there are about twenty major religions in the world…who is going to pay for this? I swear my tax money better not pay for anyone's symbols to be put up on any place that is also supported by my taxes. period.
Michael Edward Mall, Obama spends your tax money any way he wants. He gave half a trillion do his buddies at Solyndra. Do you swear that Obama won't spend you money on other matters you don't support. Probably not, you're just a HATER of everything to do with Almighty God and Christians.
Michael Edward Mall :.. Most government buildings in Washington DC have some type of
religious symbol built into the building, just look around… I know I was stationed there 3 years, for example Washington Monument..Supreme court… Religion of any type is based on Faith, neither provable nor disprobable… so each goes his own… tax dollars are spent on religious things.. who pays the Military Chaplains… who paid to have the places of worship built on Military bases…etc…. nothing else to say…
Don Rose I am not a HATER of religion. you can pray to all the imaginary gods that you want to. pick one…there are thousands of them…literally. what I do have a problem with is when you try to push your beliefs on others. keep your religion in your heart, in your home, and in your church. keep it out of my schools, my public buildings, and my wallet.
Christians like yourself are so quick to judge those who don't have your beliefs as haters. you seem to forget that Christianity was born out of Judaism as well as Islam and Mormonism. even the god named Yahweh was borrowed from previous myths. dont you see? before you dismiss me you need to be reminded that Christianity is one of thousands and thousands of myths told throughout time as an explanation of the things that couldn't be explained. thankfully we have moved beyond the dark ages. when are you going to catch up? before you get all high and mighty keep in mind that there is overwhelming evidence that indicates that the Jewish concept of monotheism evolved from the syncretism of various polytheistic sources like Canaanite and Babylonian polytheism…did you read that? let me explain that for you. Yahweh is one god taken from polytheistic religions that existed in 2000 bce. the Israelite civilization wasn't around until 950 bce. (the Israelite are the Jews who wrote about Yahweh)
listen here old man. I am a scholar that has read all the Abrahamic texts (Torah,Testament,Quran) as well as dedicated many years of my life to the study of other religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and so on…). Now I study religion from a sociological perspective. I am sure that you have only heard what you have been told on sunday mornings by some child molesting priest standing at his pulpit.
your "Christianity" is nothing more than myths stolen and twisted from those of the Israelite which was taken from other myths from ancient times.
when you explain to me why you dismiss all of the other myths and gods that existed before Yahweh,God, and Allah, you will know why I dismiss yours.
Pete Stafford you are correct sir. Christianity has made its way into our government buildings even though it is written in our country's great founding documents that there shall be , as Jefferson put it, a wall of separation between church and state.
Sir, I implore you to stand behind our great nation and those words of our founding fathers and those that have given their lives for us and who wanted no more than to be free from the shackles of organized religion. Please remember that the pilgrims came here to this great nation because they were being hunted down and persecuted by the Church of England, not Islamic radicals, not Jews, not Hindus, not Buddhists, but from those who followed the teachings of the bible.
This is a great place to live because we all have the freedom to think and pray for ourselves. Please don't tarnish it by forcing others to believe what you believe. This country has many different believers from many religions which all believe they are correct and we all have the right to pray to our own separate god or gods.
our children are dying…literally…to bring democracy to this world and are trying to free those in other places in this world from their religious dogma.
turning America into a Christian nation goes against what are brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, mothers and fathers, all which are soldiers…are dying for…that is Democracy. the freedom to be who you are without fear of persecution.
I am a secular humanist, I am a scholar, an uncle, a brother and a son. no more no less. I give my time to charities, youth programs, and help the homeless. I am not a bad or evil person. I treat those around me, regardless of race, creed, color, or religion, the same, with kindness. I will stand with you if you will stand next to me. and I will give my life to protect the rights of those in this country that want no more than to be free to live their lives without someone else's beliefs forced upon them.
keep your religion in your heart, and in your home, but please sir, let me live here, in this wonderful country, without fear because I think differently from you.
Lol you silly bitchy little Christian morons.
Why waste time attacking Christianity? Just piss on religious materials left in hotels – urine mixes well with dung!
With the most respect I say this.Is America worth fighting for in it's current state?
My dad in World War II before risking his life to defeat Hitler in North Africa and Europe was issued a little NEW testament Bible as standard U.S. procedure. Franklin D. Roosevelt asked in his speeches for the help of Jesus Christ but it has been edited out by the extreme liberals, socialistist and immoralist. Seperation between church and state is not in our consititution, rather it was in the failed Soviet Constitution. Christians pray for a revivial in our country. The younger generation has been brain-washed by former hippy immoral teachers and media types. They are so lost and have no idea of a wonderful life in Christ they are missing!
The first official United States Thanksgiving came on November 26, 1789. In the first year of the Constitutional Republic, both houses of Congress recommended to George Washington that he set apart a day for "thanksgiving and payer." President Washington agreed and proclaimed the fourth Thursday of November that year to be set apart for expression of the "sincere and humble thanks [to God], for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country."
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/george_washingtons_thanksgiving_wish.html#ixzz1egqjq9GS.
Sure, remove God from everything and let humans solve all the world's problems. That'll work…..as if!
Humans are the only people capable of tackling the problems created by humans. But with a defeatist attitude that requires waiting for some non existent entity to do your work for you? Well that is probably a cause of many of the problems to begin with.
Michael Allen Ross Why remove two sticks shaped like a "T" if there is no God? They are meaningless then and therefore can not be offensive.
We are a nation of many faiths, and no one faith should be given a privileged place, including Christianity.
What I don't understand is why many of you, and this soldier, are getting all upset about a permanent fixture being removed in accordance with regs. Regs that also say you're allowed to put up temporary religious symbols and such DURING a service.
Are temporary and portable symbols not sufficient? If so, why? And how is it such a great "attack" on Christianity. If I were on that base and had put a Mezzuzeh on the door or a Star of David in the sanctuary, would Christians then feel uncomfortable having their service under it? I would imagine the answer is yes. I'm Jewish and I'd feel uncomfortable attending a service where the rabbi's giving a sermon under a crucifix.
And yes, maybe this chapel was mostly used by Christians. So what? If the camp mosque were to be shelled, they might move their service to this chapel, as might any other denomination. My point here is CHRISTIANS HAVE TO LEARN TO PLAY EQUALLY WITH EVERYONE ELSE. Portable and temporary symbols are fair and equal for everyone. The regs are well thought out on this point. Probably one of the few military regs that makes perfect sense. So play nice, bring a portable cross on a stand, and we can all share the same house of worship.
I just started to go to colleage after 20 years out of high school most of the teachers seem to think that if you belive in jesus and god then you are a crazy fanatic and if you are a republican that belives in jesus and god then you are down right evil. how is it that teachers in college get away with being so so far left and impse thire idias on the class and if u speake out aginast it you jepodise your grades for your right to speake your mind? it makes me so sick that I almost want to drop out.
America Bow down and lick the boots of globalism. You deny god he will deny you as well! If you believe in Christ then that order is unlawful and unjust, you should display the cross. It is your duty as a christian to spread the word of god and share the good news! If you are Ashamed of Christ then he will be ashamed of you!
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Funny how sooo many people have so many opinions. A true believer and follower of the Koran, Torah Bible etc. etc. really would not care if the cross, the star of David, the crescent or whatever was on any building at any time for any reason.God is acknowledged in all religions and true believers respect the fact that we all see things differently. This is about being well trained soldiers. The soldiers crying about it being there as well as the ones who advertised this were and are the problem. Stop being a fobbit and volunteer for a mission past the gate. See then what God has to offer, the choices you have to make. See then what difference it makes whether there is or is not a cross on a building and who knows about it.
Good let's start removing more crosses.
People, haven't you heard of the 1st Amendment? Government and its property should not seem to advocate one religion over another — hence the removable symbol requirement. Would you have been OK with a Crescent Moon and star (symbols of Islam) permanently affixed to the chapel? Grow up and read your Constitution — religion is a PRIVATE affair!
why is the taxpayers funding a special "prayed room" for the muslim if a chapel is for all faiths. Check the story here:http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37483.
why is the taxpayers funding a special "prayed room" for the muslim if a chapel is for all faiths. Check the story here:http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37483.
It is unfortunate that his kind of thing happens every Christmas and Easter. We need to pray more and do penance for those who hate the Church.
As a former military member and a taxpayer, I say this is absolutely correct. I don't understand why we have to pay for military chaplains or chapel services to begin with. Something about the first amendment that our country seems to have forgotten about…
Faith, no matter what you believe in comes from within not from within the 4 walls of a building. No matter who you worship, if you carry your faith with strength you do not need a symbol all you need is your faith and inner strength something no one can take away from you.
why is the taxpayers funding a special "prayed room" for the muslim if a chapel is for all faiths. Check the story here:http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37483.
Most likely because M uslims pray many times a day and, perhaps, because C hristians did not feel comfortable sharing the J esus place with a heathen religion (aka not Christian). As for you concerns about a secret place for U.S. military of M uslim faith to plan J ihad — you need to reign in your paranoia.
Scott Thomas Brewster read the story you idiot no premenant symbol for christians but mulisms not only get a permenant symbol but a permenant building at taxpayer expence
Here it is folks……..
An announcement that the U.S. Marine base at Quantico, Va., has refurbished a building to be used as a prayer room for Muslim soldiers and civilians on base is a "bad signal," one critic has concluded.
The Marines announced earlier this summer that one of the buildings on the base had been repainted so that Muslims would have a place to pray and hold religious services
The new "Islamic Prayer Center" is the first of its kind on a Marine base, and "serves to express the Marine Corps' recognition of diversity among service members and the commitment to provide continued support to all Marines regardless of race, religion, ethnicity or gender," the base announcement said.
However, Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer said he wonders why the Marines do not seem concerned such facilities might to used to generate anti-American sympathies.
"It's going to go up as part of a testament to American multiculturalism and so on without any indication of the possibility that this could be a source of what we're fighting against," he said. "It just sends a bad signal."
At the dedication ceremony, Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England praised the estimated 4,000 Muslims in the U.S. military. Joining him were leaders of the Council on American Islamic Relations.
CAIR describes itself as America's largest Muslim civil liberties group and boasts 32 offices, chapters and affiliates nationwide and in Canada. Its mission, it says, is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.
However, CAIR is a spin-off of the Islamic Association for Palestine, identified by two former FBI counterterrorism chiefs as a "front group" for the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas. Several CAIR leaders have been convicted on terror-related charges.
"It is sadly ironic and lost on most that the plan to dedicate the prayer center and build a new mosque was approved by military leaders occupying a building that was attacked on 9/11 – the Pentagon – where more than 100 of its occupants were killed on that day," was the conclusion of those at Homelandsecurityus.com, a private security organization.
Stars and Stripes estimates there are 426 Muslims in the Marine Corps, and a maximum of 24 at Quantico.
The Muslim leader who worked on the project was Navy Lt. Abuhena Mohammed Saifulislam, described as a self-proclaimed Sunni Muslim who worked for awhile at Guantanamo, lobbying the Pentagon to issue prisoners prayer rugs.
The U.S., said another critic, Paul Sperry, "is giving him a permanent, taxpayer-supported platform from which to convert grunts to Islam. With the Quantico Mosque, the Pentagon is facilitating the study of the holy text the enemy uses, heretically or not, as their manual for war."
Sperry is a Hoover Institution media fellow and authored "Infiltration: How Muslim Spies and Subversives Have Penetrated Washington."
Another critical website, andrightlyso, notes that Saifulislam studied at a school in Virginia that was raided by federal agents after Sept. 11, 2001, and one of his mentors was identified as Taha Jaber Al-Alwani, who was alleged to give $50,000 to support suicide bombings.
Sperry, in FrontPageMagazine, said, "We are at war with militant Islam, but you wouldn't know it from the Pentagon, which is busy erecting a shrine to Islam."
Base spokeswoman Capt. Teresa Ovalle told WorldNetDaily that each religion gets its own place to worship on the military post, and since the chapel that already was being used wasn't large enough, officials prepared the extra building for the Muslims.
"We threw some new paint on it. Once we expand the chapel area, they will be able to use the chapel like everyone else," she said.
She said the additional building plans are scheduled to happen probably in 2007.
She described the availability of the building as good for the base, and didn't understand all of the resistance that has been voiced.
The dedication ceremony included a recitation from the Quran by Saifulislam, Quantico’s Muslim chaplain, in Arabic and English.
England said Muslim Americans have been serving in the armed forces since World War I and later helped unveil an Arabic plaque that says, "In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful."
Read more: Taxpayers fund Islamic center http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=37483#ixzz1ejE88cr1
The prayer space at Quantico is a permanent structure … Just like this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/army_arch/3225510570/
The Ted Starnes story is a completely different thing. Simple.
The military chaplain caqnnot mention Jesus and you wonder why the cross is now suspect by the Denfense Department. The higher ups in the DOD, both military and civilian and wondering how to be more PC and forget Christianity and Jesus.
Huh? What do you mean a military chaplain can't mention Jesus? They preach at services on Sundays and talk about Jesus.
Reading And understandingis a lost art…….this is not a new regulation….. You are idiots ifbyou blame it on liberals, dems, any one. It is not an attack on Christianity. The founding principle of America was freedom of faith…..
Soooo… let me get this straight… the Christian Cross seems to upset the people over there considering they are in an Islamic state….
The Problem: We shouldn't even be there in the first place.
The Solution: Get America out!
Good point, Kelly. I wonder how the "Christians" would react if a Muslim country invaded the US and started putting up the star and crescent.
John Burt they have, right at the twin tower site, and omoba says oh-well it's american freedoms, and too bad to the dead and thier familys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Michael Schindler Obama didn't say it was "American Freedoms", the United States Constitution did, and he swore an oath to uphold those values. It doesn't matter where the mosque was being built.
Michael Allen Ross tell that to the familys of the 3000 dead, and the constitution also says, no law shall be placed on the people with out a public forum and a majority vote, but he push healthcare down our throats, now didn't he??
and the question was: I wonder how the "Christians" would react if a Muslim country invaded the US and started putting up the star and crescent.
and the answer IS they already have!!!!!!!
Michael Allen Ross, Obama doesn't believe in American Freedoms or freedoms of any kind. After all, he did refer to the US Constitution as "a charter of negative liberties". Also, just because he swore an oath doesn't meant he's following it. Ever hear of Occupy Wall Street and Operation Fast and Furious?
By the way a symbol does not a church make…….. And it's funny that as I read through some of the most hateful comments are coming from the good cursor an folks, go figure.
"Christian"
I'd be curious to see how many jewish lawyers were involved (in some way) in the crafting of this neutrality measure. Of course they'll give up the prerogative of having the menorah or star of david displayed in any facility designated for religious observations; why not when the christian majority has to, too? Jewish attorneys have been the ones leading the charge against christianity in the united states for some time, so I always find it humorous when evangelical christians rush to defend the very people who seek to marginalize them and who view them with thinly-veiled disgust and contempt. Ah, the jews: once again playing both sides against the other to advance the tribal agenda.
You punk atheist and other than Christian people. Don't piss off our Creator. We on this earth may not like it when Jesus Christ steps foot here for the second time! Jesus was very gentle. Our Creator ruled with an iron fist. He'll kill those against Him in a heartbeat. Remember Noah and the flood? Like I said, don't piss off our Creator!
I wonder if the Creator pisses at all. To excrete is somewhat universal and wonderfully relieving. Why would God invent such a thing and then deem it unclean? Oh- sorry, just started down the rabbit hole of your personal insanity there…
I'd be curious to see how many jewish lawyers were involved (in some way) in the crafting of this neutrality measure. Of course they'll give up the prerogative of having the menorah or star of david displayed in any facility designated for religious observations; why not when the christian majority has to give up the cross, too? Jewish attorneys have been the ones leading the charge against christianity in the united states for some time, so I always find it humorous when evangelical christians rush to defend the very people who seek to marginalize them and who view them with thinly-veiled disgust and contempt. Ah, the jews: once again playing both sides against the other to advance the tribal agenda.
I would like to know why one person complains and action is taken, yet a thousands of people complain about the filth on TV that our children are subjected to and we are told, "Sorry, that's just the way it is…" The double standards are killing me.
Uh…dumbass…get rid of TV and the internet. You have this choice. You know, unlike the Wiccan forced to worship under a cross. (An entertainment suggestion instead of media, straight from the fundamentalist playbook would be hobby marriages to multiple fourteen year olds. God's OK with it.)
It would only be persecution against religion if athiests were requesting the chapel be removed completely. Frankly, I think it should be removed completely, but athiests aren't haters like most here.
I thank the soldier for his service but also think he's an idiot.
Anti-Christian is a mantra of OBAMA leadership for change to the USA. Very sad and very bad.
One's first thought is to think it good for you heavenly party goers. Of course ones second thought is- why the hell don't you go tonight?
By removing all symbols of faith the military has reconize secular humanism and support it as it is a religion and was deam so by the sepreme court.
Obey the rules? Absolutely!, UNTIL the rules prohibit God. Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Of course to get through the day Peter had angels bust him out of jail, pulled cash from fishes mouths, enjoyed a personal hugger with Jesus Hudson Christ and had a big dome in Rome named after him. Tough to compare.
I'm guessing that the next religious object to go will be the chapel itself. It will only be able to be constructed when religious services are allowed to be conducted. Laymen (laywomen) will have to ask the base commander for permission to erect a temparary worship facility and post non-denominational flyers indicating where individuals from various religious and non-religious groups can gather if they want. At the time of the group meetings (formerly religious services), individuals will need to bring their own personal belief books and symbols. They won't have a chaplain to lead any services because the pentagon won't hire religious leaders of any denomination unlless the chaplain agrees to lead all types of belief groups. Am I going too far here? We'll see.
Um…the chaplains DO have to provide services for all religious groups, regardless of their beliefs. It's part of being a chaplain. If someone isn't willing to do that, they can preach somewhere outside the military instead.
Don't bother the nice man with actual facts Teresa.
'… the solider told Fox News. “My fight is to have the regulation changed. My God is bigger than a wooden and I don’t need to defend Him.” '
THIS is a true Christian thought, and we should be praying for them. It is the begining of dark times we would not want to live through. Are we Christians prepared to face worldwide prosecution?
Actually Christianity is going to just continue to fade away quietly, becoming more and more irrelevant each day. Boring bummer for you people that need to suffer.
About that: There is one truth that mankind must be aware of. There is a God, the only living God, bigger than any and everything in the world, and His words will never fade and will always be true.
Christianity, protestantism, catholicism are labels. God is not a label. He will never fade. People can choose to be with Him, or against Him. People change, climate changes, society changes. But the truth will never change.
according to Dr. Webster's dictionary a chapel is 1. a subordinate or private place of worship, 2. a place of worship used by a Christian group other than an established church.
This is why we're losing the "war" because of PC they're demoralising the military.
God(Jehovah) Bless our Troops christian or not.
So lets take the soldier's guns away too because they are symbolic of life death and peace!
Is this the same military that hands out free Korans at Gitmo? Muslim is ok; just not Christian, I suppose.
Yeah, and the same military that burned 1000s of Bibles in Afghanistan. We know what the removal of this Cross was all about. The world doesn't have a clue, but we know.
Is this the same military that hands out free Korans at Gitmo? Muslim is ok; just not Christian, I suppose.
I don't see how it's an attack against Judaism. Please let's all remember that we Christians are a separate and standalone religion. We are not an appendage of anything else, and for all practical purposes our faith and path to salvation would still be valid even if all knowledge of all oher religions suddenly vanished from our minds. Jesus made this clear when he said to the centurion "Your faith has healed your servant.". I mention this because many Christians have of late, bought into the notion that our faith is somehow lacking without a connection to Judaism. That is not true. It is apostacy! Be careful!
Undeniably, one of the most, if not the most, intolerant religion on this earth is the Mu$lim religion, yet practitioners of their religion come to what is a predominantly Christian nation (Regardless of what the Exalted One announced to the World), and whine about being offended by our cross. Try going for example to any of a number of Muslim nations and attempt to openly or publically profess your Christian beliefs, or publically advocate the tenets of your religion. Good luck staying out of jail, or alive for that matter, in those countries. In fact in several of those countries if you convert to Christianity you are subject to the death penalty. How tolerant is a religion that decrees in their Quran, or sacred Islamic writings, that they must "kill the infidel if they refuses to convert"! The whole philosophy of their religion is one of bigotry and hypocrisy when it comes to tolerance of the religious views of others. Why then should they expect us to abandon our cross simply because it is viewed as offensive to practitioners of their faith?
You DO realize that the cross in question here is in a Muslim nation, and not on a US base, but on a NATO one, right?
Teresa Casort Holland He either does not realize the concept of allies or how to treat them so that they remain your allies. To some people the military is a giant killing machine, but in fact it requires a lot of tact and diplomacy among the military allies of different nations, many of whom have different cultures and faiths. If you gave control of the military to the type of people who do not understand this, the entire mission would be compromised.
Teresa Casort Holland, you DO realize that the government is trying to remove every Cross visible in the United States, don't ya?
Don Rose – I will admit, it's not something I've specifically seen, because my family has been living overseas for several years (wherever the military sends us). Regardless…the cross in question here was prominently displayed on the outside of a building in another country.
This war is not meant to be the crusades revisited. It is not supposed to be Christians attacking Muslims in the holy land. However, prominently displaying a Cross on a building supervised by the U.S. Military could easily be read as being just that…Christians attacking Muslims, not Americans fighting for freedom.
On a practical note…having a huge cross on the outside of a building does have the likelihood of saying "Bomb Here" to extremists who still exist in Afghanistan. Do we really want to be painting a target on the outside of a chapel?
If you haven't seen what the cross in question looked like and how it was displayed, here's a link to an article with a photo. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065918/US-troops-Afghanistan-furious-cross-chapel-removed-breaking-Army-rules.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Good. Religion, that non-science nonsense, needs to be questioned and put down.
I find it interesting to hear liberals first cite "Seperation of church and state", which is non-exisitant in the Constitution, then claim there is no suppression of Christanity although we see every day here on the homefront. The closest they are to right on this issue is the military regulation cited to justify removing this cross but these same liberals ignore this part of the story "The camp also has a mosque". Therefore, this camp is STILL in violation of the same reg as well as the First Amendment.
The way I look at it is when things like this happen, where the cross is forced to be removed yet a mosque is allowed to remain, then Islam really is not a religion but a cult. If the Islamic Prophet is the same as God, why would the cross, which in my opinion, is a symbol of God and all things loving and peaceful, why be forced to remove it? None of this makes any sense to me. I also had another notion. This country was founded on religion. One Nation Under God, our money….In God We Trust….when God began to get pushed out of what he created, everything began going downhill. When you take God out of the equation, you haven't much left to depend on, to believe in or to turn to when you need that late night conversation to ease your mind and soul. God has not deserted us. He is still there, watching. And he will remain there. The naysayers cannot make him go away. But the rest of us will have to suffer the tests we are facing and will continue to face until something changes. If I choose to put a cross on my property at any time, that is my right. If a family member chooses to have a cross at the grave site of their loved one, they have the right to do it. And if Allah and God are the same, removed the mosque as well. By allowing the mosque to remain, it has answered the question I have asked for a very long time, God and Allah are NOT the same.
The Mosque and the German chapel (They even say it's German in the story) most likely don't belong to us. This is a NATO camp we're talking about.
D Riley, it doesn't matter. The camp is still under an American command, so same rules apply. If the cross has to go, then the mosque has to go in order to be compliant with the regulation in question. No if's, and's, or but's about it.
Dave Caillouet. So you're telling me that even the non American soldiers have to adhere to our rules in the NATO camp? They all adopt the US Army Chaplain's manual? Are you sure about that?
Dave Caillouet No one is asking the Chapel to be removed, only that the religious symbol be removed when not in use. It has nothing to do with buildings being removed.
That is exactly what I am telling you, Riley. It may be a NATO camp, but the whole shebang is still under US command. And even if it were not, regardless of what regs say, you cannot tell our soldiers that they cannot engage in the free exercise of their religion, even if it is the display of symbols, while keeping the symbols of another faith on the same camp. That is in clear violation of the First Amendment. The United States Supreme Court has made that clear in re McSally vs SECDEF Rumsfeld. These joes have a right to a lot more than just complaints and questioning. They have the right to challenge by means of filing a lawsuit.
Michael Allen Ross, to demand that a cross be removed while allowing a mosque, which itself has permanent symbols displayed to identify as a mosque, to exist IS promoting Islam to the exclusion of other faiths. Forcing these joes to remove a cross is prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and therefore, it is still a violation. Why is that such a problem for you?
Dave Caillouet When you take the oath to join the military, you give away many of your rights under the Constitution so that the military can operate with good order and discipline. This has been upheld often in the both the civilian and military courts.
They are allowed to exercise their religion. They are not allowed to keep religious symbols within the building when they are not using the building. The building does not belong to them, it belongs to the U.S. government. You have the right to decorate your own houses any way you like, but you do not have the right to take over a house that isn't yours and decorate it as you see fit.
Michael Allen Ross , you are so full of shit that it is coming out of your ears. None of us gave up any of our rights upon enlistment or commission. We might have accepted certain limitations upon the exercise of some of those rights, but we did NOT give up any of our rights and there is NO court that has ever upheld any such principle. Yeah, I notice you don't cite cases.
Michael Allen Ross, Micheal, read the fucking article. First, this building was being used as a chapel that holds Protestant and Baptist services. Second, there is a mosque on the same camp with its permanant symbols. Therefore, they have every right to have that cross as long as that mosque exists. Regardless of regs, Command cannot order the removal of symbols of one faith while keeping the symbols of another. That is in clear violation of the religious clause in the First Amendment.
Dave Caillouet I'm not an expert on Islam and as far as I can tell, neither are you. Nothing in the story says anything about the other chapels not taking down permanent religious symbols while not in use.
Dave Caillouet There is actually very little in the story about how the other chaplains are behaving. We really only know about the one who got reprimanded and reminded of the regulations. We, the readers of the story can't simply make an assertion one way or another about what was happening within the other chapels. To do so would be an assumption based not on facts, but unsupported beliefs.
Michael Allen Ross, you are so full of shit that it comes out of your ears. I did NOT give up a single one of rights as an American citizen upon enlistment. None of us have. We have accepted certain limitations on the exercise of our rights, but we did not give up our rights entirely. I still had the right to go to a Tea Party rally and as long as I do so wearing civilian attire and not doing anything else that puts me in a position to represent the US Army, neither you nor anyone else have shit to say about that. I still have had the right to own my own personal firearm or firearms. I still had the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, I still had the right to not be compelled to incriminate myself, and I still had the right to the free exercise of my religion. And in the event of being accused of a crime, I still had the same rights and legal protections that the rest of society has, such as legal counsel and the right to presumption of innocence, and the Burden of Proof is still on the shoulders of any accusing party. And the reason why you cannot name cases of "rights being given away" being upheld by both military and civilian courts is because there ain't any. So quit being an idiot.
Michael Allen Ross, I never claimed to be any kind of an "expert" on Islam, but it is quite clear that I know more about it than you and Nate put together. And I sure as hell know for a fact that mosques do have permanent religious symbols such as crescents that identify them as mosques because I believe what what is in front of my eyes. And I know that compelling anyone to remove symbols of their faith while allowing those of another faith is a clear violation.
Dave Caillouet You have no knowledge of whether any other chapel on the base was in violation of the regulations by not removing their respective religious symbols when not in use. You have no way of knowing that. You are assuming it. Do you know what happens when you make assume?
Michael Allen Ross, you are no expert in any law or of the military. You're an idiot. I did NOT give up a single right of US Citizenship upon enlistment. None of us have. We have accepted certain limitations on the exercise of our rights. For example, as long as I am not in uniform or presenting myself as representing the US Army, I can go to a Tea Party Rally and neither, anyone else, not even the President cannot say shit about it. So re-read your "When you take the oath to join the military, you give away many of your rights under the Constitution " and think about what a totally stupid thing you just said there. Also, the reason you cannot cite any cases where either or both civilian and military courts ever upheld the giving away of Constitutional Rights of anyone is because there are none. So you're an idiot pretending to be an expert.
I have been to hundreds of churches, and all of them had permanent religious symbols within them. All of them except the ones on United States military bases. There was only one person in the story who was reprimanded for disobeying the regulations.
Dave Caillouet. "regardless of what regs say, you cannot tell our soldiers that they cannot engage in the free exercise of their religion" What religion mandates that permanent crosses be displayed on military bases?
Michael Allen Ross, again you are spouting nonsense. The military has plenty of chapels in and outside CONUS with such "permanent religious symbols" as you whine about, in the cases where these chapels have been set aside for particular sects and services, and these symbols are permissable in those cases, provided the same post has other chapels set for other faiths, as it is in this case. Now unless this is a case of one chapel being the only game in town, then chapels themselves do not have to be non-denominational. The post on which they reside does have to take steps to ensure that other faiths are not being excluded or discriminated against, as the case is here.
Michael Allen Ross, Michael Allen Ross, once again, you show yourself to be glittering jewel of extreme ignorance when you state "When you take the oath to join the military, you give away many of your rights under the Constitution so that the military can operate with good order and discipline. This has been upheld often in the both the civilian and military courts." No soldier has given up ANY rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights upon enlistment or commission. All of us served only accepted certain limitations upon the exercise of our rights, and even then such restrictions can ONLY be made in the best interests of the Service to maintain discipline and good order, not on some commander's whim and definatetly not some pussified professional crybaby who is "oh-so-offended" by this and that. . And I notice your lack of actual cases that upheld any prinicple about the complete relinquishment of civil rights upon donning the uniform. The reason you do not cite any such rulings is because they do not exist.
D Riley Claborn, any and all religions can and do at those chapels that are either specifically set aside for these religions or if they are designated and recognized Historical Landmarks. In the case of the former, the base command has to redesignate them as non-demonational and in the case of the latter, all you can do is put up and shut up because there ain't shit that even the post CG can do about it.
I think the problem is that it's a general use chapel and not a specifically Christian chapel. They're allowed to display the cross. just not permanently. It's hilarious that it's such a big deal.
D Riley Claborn, I find it to be pathetic that the display of symbols is such a big deal to the few who constantly complain and demand they be removed.
D Riley Claborn, I find it to be pathetic that the display of symbols is such a big deal to the few who constantly complain and demand they be removed.
Dave Caillouet. I'm not surprised. Taking rights away from those few would probably suit you just fine.
This must be a new AR because when I was in the Army the post chapels all had crosses either inside or outside. It's the Muslim revolution that is changing our values and religions. What would Jesus say about this? It's time to take back our country and stop giving in to all these foreigners who do not want to assimilate.
Everyone:
The fight is to plant the cross in Jerusalem. Not Afghanistan.
And we will have to fight trough all of the people who live there to accomplish that,
Not just the moslems.
Congrats! You win today's award for most appropriate anonymous Facebook handle!
Thank you sir!
It was down this or Magilla!
This is NOT about "freedom OF religion".
This is about freedom from the biblical Word of God.
If burning a USA flag is "freedom of speech" then why isn't erecting a cross?
A simple cross says sooooo much.
This about a moose limb cow la fate! Hom os exual / athei st freedom from conviction.
I'm curious whether you'd prefer to get free from someone attempting to shove the Quranic word of God or the Vegan Word of Veganism in your face 24/7/365… Whether you might duck out when you see someone like that coming… Or whether you'd agree you'd have gotten sick of it a long time ago to the point where any chance of it impacting you as a non-annoyance/non-threat would have long since eroded, and any value it might have had totally lost to you…
Erecting a cross is protected by free speech. On private property. The government shouldn't fund Piss Christ, and it shouldn't fund the erection of crosses. Unless you're advocating theocracy.
And just to mention, I'm quite a serious Christian.
If we don’t change our political system, our religious beliefs will eventually be outlawed here at home in the name of political correctness.
The chapel is used for general Protestant services and a Baptist church service. There is a smaller chapel used for other services. The camp also has a mosque and a German chapel that is used for Catholic services.
a quote from the article. Question : do these other structures display the religion being conducted in them?
The regulation is meant for the entire United States Army, not just a single base. On some bases there may have multiple chapels and on some there may be only one. Either way the regulation has to be enforced and followed.
Here is my take on this whole religious thing. The cross is just an object if you have no belief in it. It should have zero meaning to anybody that doesn't believe and should just be like a picture on the wall. The same goes for every other "religious symbol" if you don't believe it should have no effect on your life. They are just decorations and to some they have significant meaning. Any object could be considered a religious symbol right down to the benches being considered "god forbid" pews which are traditionally in a christian church.
The cross is still there but is only a symbol and not Christ himself. I am proud the complaining "Christian" soldier questioned the "military" decision to remove the cross.
maybe Marx was right, "Religion is the opium of the masses" I also agree with John Lennon, 'Imagine no religion to" what a peaceful world it could be if the Jesus and Mohammed fan clubs just kept their bigorty and hatred to themselves.
A Pentagon spokesman told Fox News & Commentary that the cross was removed after someone complained.
Someone? Someone? How about the thousands that didn't complain?
You're a US Soldier, listen to the regulation and do your job! It is foolish to think this is an attack on christianity!