Oct 21, 2011
Furious New York City residents sounded off at a community meeting Thursday night over the hundreds of Occupy Wall Street protesters encamped in Zuccotti Park.
“The occupiers are not our neighbors,” one resident said while addressing a Community Board One meeting in Lower Manhattan. “Our neighbors do not beat on drums when they’re sleeping, our neighbors do not verbally attack on the way to work. Our neighbors do not break into buildings or defecate on our street.”
Public sex, open drug usage and nudity have been reported in the park — occupied for more than a month by anti-capitalists. Hundreds have been arrested but New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has given his blessing for the protesters to remain in the park for as long as they want.
But several hundred furious taxpaying residents said enough is enough.
Occupy Wall Street the Focus of Community Board Meeting : MyFoxNY.com
“They are defecating on our doorsteps,” stay-at-home mom Katherine Hughes told the New York Post. “A lot of people are very frustrated. A lot of people are concerned about the safety of our kids.”
“I walk out of my apartment and see people urinating on my steps,” resident James Fernandez told the Post. “The protesters taunt people who are on their way to work.”
An Occupy Wall Street spokesman told the Community Board they were making changes but could not make any promises that the urinating in the streets or the constant drum beating would end.
“In terms of accountability and enforceability, we’ve got a ways to go,” he said. “I think we’ve made progress, I do.”
“Get some earplugs,” a protester told the newspaper.
WNYW-TV reported that the board passed a resolution noting their support for the right to protest – but noted there need to be limits on noise, more bathrooms, and the removal of NYPD barricades erected around the neighborhood.
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People are SO nice!
Disgusting. Behaving like brute beasts. But then I guess that's what Obama wants. No good end will come of all this, mark my word.
This is not a movement for Obama. 70% of OWS are independents. Many actively speak out against Obama.
Jason M. Glover -
70% Independents?
Is that the new euphemism for Marxists?
Jason M. Glover if they are against oboma why not protest in the white house?
Eric Scher Of course, just because they don't want to be associated with either party they Must be Marxist! How clever of you.
Gary Hollis They are not "against Obama", they are against the influence of corporations on the government, the widening gap between the middle and upper class, and the corruption in the banking system. He is part of the problem – but is not the focus of the problem. That doesn't exclude him from it, it simply means if he were removed, it would not fix any of the goals OWS wants to achieve.
Gary Hollis, consider the implausibility of your suggestion. The middle class has been ruthlessly raped and pillaged by the corporatocracy. We cannot afford to leave our jobs to go physically to Washington, DC. But if you are volunteering to purchase our plane tickets, maybe we can find a way to do as you suggest.
I can only hope they are gone when I make the trip to NY… thoroughly and utterly disgusting behavior!
The brute beasts are the ones with riot gear, sir. The OWS majority is trying to find a way to get the drum circle to close down at a reasonable time without causing tension and violence.
Bullshit
John Freeland Oh, I'm sorry. I forget that FoxNews turns its viewers into robots that can't do their own research.
Jessica Loughlin Lipscomb Oh whatever, Jessica. Research what? Police in riot gear? I saw them years before you were born, I'm guessing. The drum circle? You think that's the way to change the world? Go to work tomorrow. Make whatever your wish is happen. Stop worrying about the drums. Take comfort in us old robots, girl.
: ) I've never been apart of a drum circle, and I'm pretty sure it would drive me insane. I was only saying the majority of people there feel the same way. This is according to the people involved, not Hannity or Coulter or Rivera. I used to take comfort in you old robots, until your generation forgot about the Constitution.
Jessica Loughlin Lipscomb And what exactly would us old farts have forgotten about the Constitution? I have several areas I could tell you I have a beef with, but I suspect they are not the same ones you have.
John Freeland Drum circles have more of a chance at changing the world than voting for corporate politicians, Obama included.
you guys are so STUPID, you thin k something is going to change, your nuts, obama is nuts.
Linda Lawrence this is not a pro-Obama movement. His entire economic advisory board is connected to Goldman Sachs and other firms that caused the financial crisis. Obama is what they gave us to shut us up, we've realized it, and I know I at least am doing my best to make sure the OWS knows he is not our ally.
Obama may very well be nuts. He seems like a liar. The only way things change is when people stand up against what's wrong. Civil rights? A powerful movement of the people, not politicians.
Jason M. Glover Sure and unicorns will dance at the park on saturday. I don't vote for "corporate politicians" I vote for who I think will represent me the best. I work for a corporation. They pay me well, offer benefits that they don't have to, and in return I give them the best days work that I can provide. I raised a family I am proud of thanks to a paycheck from a corporation Jason. No one in that drum circle is going to do that Jason. You do what you have to do. Hope those drums get you through.
John, why do you suppose our beefs would be different? I'm sure you think that I'm a leftist, Liberal Democrat. Or, that I think the Federal Gov't should continue or increase the entitlements. Would this be an accurate assumption?
Jessica Loughlin Lipscomb Civil rights? Oh Jessica, may I be the first one to apologize to you for the mayhem that has been visited upon your civil rights? I hope you get them someday. Then you can think about decency and manners, like not peeing on peoples doorsteps. Sorry, I forgot, you have to take it one step at a time.
John Freeland My point wasn't that drum circles are useful, it is that they are more useful than voting in a rigged system. (As in, voting for the two major parties will not change one thing). I'm glad you work for what sounds like a respectable corporation. I do as well. It is important to note that OWS just wants corporate money out of politics, not an end to business (especially ones that provide jobs, one of the things we are protesting are companies that are shipping jobs overseas to exploit sweatshop labor). Publicly funded elections would also get union money out of politics. You decide who to vote for, but your choices are predetermined by the 1% with all the economic power. Maybe things won't change, but voting for the status quo certainly isn't going to change things. At least these folks are trying to do something.
There is more to OWS than drum circles. We are transferring our money out of the "too big to fail" banks and into credit unions or local banks. We are interacting with our neighbors and meeting new people and learning about new positions on issues no covered in the press. We are throwing out labels like "democrat" and "republican." We are learning about what happened during the financial collapse so we can educate others.
Most of all we are learning how to respect each other even when we disagree. We all want a better America. We don't want bigger government, we want accountable, transparent government that can't be bribed with huge campaign contributions from banks, drug companies, and unions.
Jessica Loughlin Lipscomb I suspect that our views are very much the same. I also suspect that we come from completely different places. I think there are a lot of people fed up with life as usual. If you would like to agree on that, I'm with you. Now let's figure out how we can stop going at each other and make some real changes. That should come from Me and You, Jessica. You ready?
John Freeland I'm not trying to offend you. Are you saying the civil rights wasn't a powerful movement? That was the only point I was making. I do have manners and decency,that's why anytime I've ever moved away from the south I came runnin back! : ) I'm not even IN New York, let alone peeing on people's doorsteps. The way you just threw me into that category is exactly what is wrong with news outlets. People willing to sleep on a sidewalk instead of in their beds at home for what they believe in does not make them dirty, animals like you seem to think we all are. (The few that are allegedly peeing on stoops probably are, but it's a worldwide movement.I would venture to say a tiny percentage are defecating on doorsteps.)
Jason M. Glover I wish there were a SUPER like button : )
Jason M. Glover And yet I suspect you vehemently disagree with the Tea Party who pretty much wants the same thing. Who gives the money to our politicians is not the point. What our politicians do with that money is. Until you attack that problem, there will be no change.
John Freeland I absolutely do not. In fact, one of the founders of the Tea Party has endorsed OWS and written an article helping it so it doesn't get hijacked by the Democrats the way the Tea Party got hijacked by the Republicans.
There is a ton of overlap with the issues being discussed at OWS and with what the Tea Party was upset about.
Here's the thing: what the politicians are doing with our money is what the people who finance their campaigns want them to do with our money, not necessarily what their constituents want them to do with their money.
For example: Obama's campaign was funded by the banks and unions. He then is beholden to satisfy both of these interest groups. Most of his economic advisory board is comprised of former employees of companies like Goldman Sachs. Obama allowed these corporations to loot the treasury and did nothing to prosecute the crooks who scammed the American public with Credit Default Swaps, falsely rating horrible investments (ie, fraud), and derivative trading.
The root of the problem is that bribery of politicians is a matter of course in this country, and the simplest solution to this is a constitutional amendment requiring all politicians to run on public funds. Obama is going to raise $1billion for his campaign this year. Such a waste of resources.
If every candidate is judged only based on their ideas, we'll start to have real discussions, instead of discussions on how to kick the can down the road a little further so the next generation has to deal with our debt.
John Freeland Absolutely.
I think its dangerous to lump every NYPD officer into this idea that they are all "Enemies of OWS". Cops are People and they are doing their job. While there are some shithead cops out there, and they should be held accountable for their actions, some sympathize with the movement. There are a Lot of cops down there, and while some will make mistakes, this does not represent the NYPD as a whole.
John Freeland, Oh whatever, John. You can puff out your chest and keep blowing that hot air, but you know full well that her comment was not intended to mean that drum circles can change the world. Say something useful or go crawl back under your rock.
Linda Lawrence, the definition of stupid is as follows:
stu·pid
1. lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2. characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless.
3. tediously dull, especially due to lack of meaning or sense; inane; pointless.
4. annoying or irritating; troublesome.
5. in a state of stupor; stupefied.
Be careful when you point a finger at someone else–there are three fingers pointing back at you.
John Freeland, pop another blue pill.
Christine Roeder Christine, Very proud of yourself aren't you. I'm so happy for you. I'm back under my rock. Thanks for adding some useful crap to the conversation.
John Freeland, I admit that some of my comments have not been particularly useful. As we can all probably agree, it can be difficult to avoid making some unproductive statements when we feel we are being wrongly attacked. My apologies.
Take PICTURES perhaps? I hear a lot of this but seriously, if they are really doing that take some damned photos. Media would love the proof don't you think? Perhaps it would inspire someone to donate porta poties.
What I don't understand is how many people doubt what's going on during these OWS protests despite numerous videos and photographs showing people in a variety of disgusting acts, yet I would be willing to bet that those same doubters are still adamant that a Tea Party member spit at Emanuel Cleaver or yelled racial epithets at the Black Caucus despite no evidence of either of these actions existing. And I've watched several videos of the Black Caucus trying to instigate just such actions by walking through the Tea Party activists all while they held their cell phones and video cameras up in case someone did or said something. No evidence as of yet has come forth, despite monetary rewards being offered for just such evidence.
Ron Mitchell Jr. Yes I think the Tea Party is owed an apology. The media manipulates us into warring camps to keep people from unifying behind anything that would actually change the system for the better. MSNBC's job is to rally people on one side, Fox News serves the other side. There are no sides. There is one side: the side of the people. We may not always agree, but we've been sold out. And that should piss all of us off. I am using this as an opportunity to never again judge a movement by the actions of a few individuals — it makes no difference to me if those acts involve waving guns around and creating signs that say stuff like "english is are only language" [sic], or taking dumps on cop cars and being so fucked up on drugs you don't even know why you are at a protest.
What I have learned is ANY mass movement will attract these elements, because assholes and idiots make up a large portion of our population. We're human beings, none of us are perfect. But we are dealing with complex global problems, and our government is useless at addressing them so long as it does not serve the will of the people.
If the actions of some of the more adolosecent protesters (and remember, we all did dumb shit as teens) bother you, I suggest doing what I do: Going down to your local Occupy and talking some sense into them about tactics that don't work as opposed to ones that do. The GA is open to all, I suggest go checking one out… it's pretty cool to see democracy in action.
It does appear that the extremes are always covered in events like this, while those that are more grounded tend to get ignored.
Ron Mitchell Jr.
Ron………you da man!……..keep talkin!:)))))))))))
I strongly recommend everyone start preparing themselves for what's to come.
http://4ffd3kujwcrscm9csdq8c5t82i.hop.clickbank.net/
…..and this is what Obama supports and sympathizes with!?? Get caught doing that at my house, expect to be doused with lighter fluid and show a match!
The Not-Federal Reserve has been crapping on all of us for almost a century. Whats a little more poopie?
I thought New Yorkers were tough?
If non-criminals could own guns in NYC, the whole ows thing would be over in about ten minutes.
Really? You'd massacre your neighbors for standing up for their rights? ::facepalm::
Jason M. Glover this movement wants to end capitalism and usher in socialism, that bis not good for our country, go home and grow up.
Linda Lawrence it absolutely does not. I am grown up, gainfully employed, and at home using the internet connection I pay for in order to converse with you. But I also know that when I hear something on TV or see something in the news, and that TV station is controlled by a giant multinational corporation with ties to the same banking industry that the OWS is protesting, that maybe, just maybe, the reports are designed to give people a false impression of the protests.
I know for a fact you are wrong because I've gone to the protests and seen the people there first hand, and you should go check them out, meet your fellow Americans, and form your own opinion in terms of being for or against the protests.
We don't want an end to capitalism, we want an end to crony capitalism, which is something even Sarah Palin has complained about.
I think our founding fathers would disagree that this is not good for our country, since they commanded us to refresh democracy if the government ever ceased to serve the will of the people. Our government is bought and controlled by Goldman Sachs and their friends. These individuals tanked the global economy and cost millions their jobs, pensions, and savings.
Our "free market" is manipulated through the bribing of politicians in both parties to enact legislation that allow these assholes to profit enormously by taking tremendous risks as they know that they are "too big to fail" and will be bailed out by the taxpayer.
Jason M. Glover Adbusters,aCanadian group dedicated to spreading the gospel of Socialism orchestrated OWS,Lisa Fithian,a paid socialist shill,is there to push the crisis,there are lots of pictures of Mao,the hammer and sickle,Che and screeds of down with capitalism( often seen misspelled as capitolism),not to mention the anti-semitism,as well as
Danny Strunk first, you are actually mostly incorrect. All Adbusters did was create a poster in their magazine and sent out a single email. Then it started with a very small group of people and went viral due to social tools like Twitter, Live Streaming, Facebook, youtube, blogs,
I've loved Adbusters since I was in high school, they have a large youth audience because it has good graphic design, covers tons of issues (from psychology and science, to politics, consumerism, and environmentalism).
Have you ever read an Adbusters, or leafed through one in a book store? You may be suprised by how many values that are traditionally "socially conservative" it espouses — by complaining about the comodification of our kids through TV, videogames, name brand clothing, etc. Did you know more children recognize the Golden Arches of McDonald's than the Christian cross?
Adbusters is a nonprofit that publishes a, yes, subversive, magazine, runs campaigns such as "TV turnoff week" and "Buy Nothing Day" (mean to protest the fact that Christmas and other holidays have turned into excuses to accumulate crap we don't need instead of spend time with one another and giving).
Now, I don't agree with all Adbusters does. In fact, their pie-in-the-sky idealism and occasional ridiculousness (articles that I not only disagree with, but just are fucking generally stupid) turned me off of the magazine so much that after being a long-time subscriber I finally quit reading.
So imagine my suprise to see something they did actually went somewhere for once. All Adbusters did was throw a match on some gasoline. They haven't actually organized anything — the protesters did that. The liberal establishment only joined in later, and the protesters are fighting tooth and claw currently to keep them from hijacking the movement (they could use your help). Regardless of your opinion on Adbusters, at least understand the chronology of how this started.
Now, as far as the ridiculous and just plane offensive signs you will see on occasion. Think about this. Who else was just complaining about sterotyping based on a few lone nuts? The Tea Party.
People can be stupid. Especially when you get what amounts to a random grab bag of people together. However, you know who isn't stupid? The photo editor who chooses, out of all of his amazing photos, to print the one he knows is going to cause controversy because it's so extreme or innaccurate. I grit my teeth when I go and know, yes 9/11 conspiracy nuts will be there, etc etc.. but it's for the greater good of getting our country back that we have to work together right now.
And that means even working with people who do stupid things.
Jason M. Glover, do you endorse the principles of the Tea Party. Less government, lower taxes, and less regulations that hinder small business.
as well as the interviews with the people who think they are entitled to a sense of security or a well paying job just because they went to the right schools.If and this is a big if…this isn't a push, then this group needs to define itself and stop with communist /,
socialist rhetoric otherwise,this movement will die out as the cold weather moves in.Actually OWS should ,instead of protesting Wall Street should be in front of Congress and the WH….
Conrad Devers yes, I do. And here is how (sorry it's so long):
Less Government
First, let's clarify what we mean by the word "government". If by government you mean the federal government, that is different than state or local governments. Or do you mean all three?
If, by less government, you mean that the "government that governs least governs best" I certainly agree with that statement. I'm against the idea of a concentrated power that can exert almost complete control over its subjects. But, note, I'm also against the idea of a concentrated power that can exert almost complete control over the market. And this, provides a hugely unfair advantage to giant multinational corporations (particularly a very tiny 100 or so) over small mom and pop shops and entrepreneurs who start businesses and actually are the true "job creators" (whereas, the multinationals have sent manufacturing to be done in countries that still lack environmental standards or child labor laws or weekends).
If, by less government, you mean 0 laws governing how businesses operate, I would argue that that isn't "governing least" it's just "not governing" (in other words, anarchy and lawlessness). It isn't "small government" to have a ton of regulations and rules about what people can do with their own body and their own life, and what art or music the person can listen to, and what a person can bring on an airplane but then absolutely no rules when it comes to the behavior of corporations operating in our nation — even when their actions harm people.
The repercussions of one person bringing something dangerous on an airplane is most likely the tragedy of a single airplane crashing. And yet, we allow ourselves to be subjected to all manor of laws to ensure our safety while traveling without much argument. We also pass repressive legislation like the "Patriot Act" which is about as big government as it gets — spying on your own citizens.
Corporations claim to be people to get the benefits of people — such as free speech — but with none of the repercussions when they ruin millions of lives. Chemical spills, oil spills, financial meltdowns due to fraud, cooking the books, denial of healthcare to paying customers, paying people a non-living wage while making record profits.
So I think having rules around our free market actually helps keep it a free market full of healthy competition, and having a market without rules is economic anarchy which leads to corruption, monopolies, oligopolies, and financial systems prone to collapse and failure. And that's how we got to where we are now.
Wall Street, owns our government, so when I think of "big government" I think of "multinational corporations" because that is who makes up our government — there is a revolving door between corporations and the regulatory bodies that are supposed to be keeping us safe from those who would be even willing to kill or risk global economic collapse to make a quick buck.
I think that the federal government should have two purposes: enforce the bill of rights, defend the country.
Lower Taxes
There is something everyone always forgets when they mention taxes. That is, actually talking about where our taxes are going. When you include costs for things like veterans benefits and other long term costs associated with the military, military spending makes up about half of our federal budget (most $$ going to defense contractors not the troops).
10 years of war costs a metric fuckton of money, and to me, that's part of the problem — war should only be waged when absolutely necessary, and I happen to believe that a lot of our foreign policy is driven by the concentrated economic powers mentioned above.
Let's also not forget the 0% loans from the FED, and taxpayer bailout of the auto and banking industries. (again, necessary because concentrated power means one of these babies goes down, and we all go down).
Then there is what amounts to corporate socialism: 0% tax rates, handouts, subsidies, exclusive contracts for projects paid for by our taxes, etc.
All that said, I do believe in some sort of social safety net, especially when it comes to kids since they have no control over the situations they are born into. Who provides that, I don't care. I think we should all have healthcare, and I think if we had single payer healthcare, we'd all benefit because healthcare costs would come down and ERs wouldn't be jammed up with people that don't have insurance. Just like we all benefit from socialized firefighting.
All solutions do not need to come from the Federal government, they could be local or community grassroots groups — but sometimes bad things happen to good people, and those people do, in fact, deserve help to get back on their own two feet. But so long as I am paying the ridiculous amount in taxes that I am, I at the very least want my friends and family to not worry about medical bills. Instead I watch my money go to wars and bailouts for the wealthiest Americans — the ones who are doing just fine without a handout but it's still not enough for them.
I strongly believe in balanced budgets, and I feel like a re-prioritizing of our spending and ending to preferential treatment to multinationals and billionaires would easily balance our budget and in fact allow us to even lower taxes across the board. I feel like I am being squeezed for taxes so the richest 1% can't gamble away my money on a hunch.
Regulations
Pretty much addressed this above. I am glad you mentioned "small businesses." I think the reason there is so much antipathy toward regulation goes to the red tape that your average business owner has to deal with. I should know since I started two. Multinationals do not deal with this. They have high-powered lobbyists, lawyers, and accountants who can find every loophole, exploit every weakness, and in fact write legislation to give them an unfair advantage in the marketplace. My diehard support for true entrepreneurs and small businesses is one of my driving reasons for participating in OWS.
Danny Strunk OWS is out in front of Congress protesting in DC. There is an OWS camp in almost every major city across the country, and now around the world. The targets are governments, central banks, and stock markets, as it was a collusion of all these forces that caused this crisis. The ones who I most worry about feeling "entitled" are the multimillionaire bankers who just took the entire country for a ride on the taxpayer's dime. The group is working to define itself. Again, the communist/socialist rhetoric is present, but it's not omnipresent. We are having a dialog with a consensus model to engage with each other and work toward a solution. Right now is just the beginning. The media will try to kill the movement by railroading it to be a "communist" or "socialist" movement. Again, I go down knowing that some people will be "socialists" but even if I don't agree with their opinion, they are still an American and they deserve to be engaged in dialog.
If we can't put aside our differences and quit calling each other names like "socialist" and "communist" or "conservative" and "liberal" we will never get our country back, and the American dream will fade away. I feel like there is some real potential to get our country back on the right track again… don't let the fringe groups bother you. They are "fringe" groups… that means they aren't a majority and that once our representatives remember who their bosses are and respond to the will of the people, there is utterly no likelihood enough people in the country would support something as radical as switching to socialism, communism, or anarchy. If you don't trust that the majority of Americans in this country want to see the country doing well and their friends and family and children prospering, then the concentrated economic powers which have bought out our democracy have already won, and the American dream has died.
Jason M. Glover Jason I guess what I do not understand is why the primary focus is Wall Street, NY and not the White House and Capital in DC. Wall St is doing what capitalists are supposed to do, make a lot of money. Our elected officals are not doing what they are suppsed to do represent us. It was DC and not Wall St that created the sub prime mess, people like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd have been able to walk away from the wreckage thy created. I am confused, enlighten me.
Jim Spaulding Perhaps what you are missing is that there is a revolving door between Wall Street and government, not a clean line of separation. Many of the folks making our legislation and policy decisions have direct ties to Wall Street, or even have worked for firms like Goldman Sachs for millions of dollars. The consumer protection agencies set up to monitor banking fraud are filled with former employees of the banks they are supposed to be regulating. They also have conflicts of interest at the FED. The issue is that, knowing that people tend toward being corruptible, we shouldn't have a system that so easily facilitates corruption.
One reason the protests started on Wall Street was that we were tired of being given the run around by our politicians and the criminals who crashed the global economy have not been brought to justice. (I'll get to your point about it not being the fault of Wall Street in a bit).
The folks leading the decisions that caused the financial crisis in Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, AIG, et all, never were charged with the serious crimes they committed — crimes of fraud which left millions in foreclosure, destroyed pensions, and massive layoffs. So people are right to direct their rage at those who profited off of the suffering of others, engaged in fraudulent behavior, and have gone unprosecuted because those who should be doing the prosecuting, including the president of the United States, are friends of theirs.
You say they are just doing what they are supposed to: make money. We have laws in this country to prevent individuals from engaging in illegal behavior the public deems hazardous to our society. You can't make money at harming others, or extortion, etc. The MAFIA is also supposed to make lots of money, and there is a reason their behavior is illegal — it creates unfair situations where competition is squashed, folks are swept up in scams, and bribes are required. That is exactly what we have today, but Wall Street investment banks are the mobsters, the police are their enforcers (JP Morgan Chase donated 4.6 million to the NYPD to fight the protests) and they've either assumed positions in, or bought out, almost the entire federal government.
The intended purpose of investment banks is to invest in worthwhile industry that leads to job creation and innovation (which in the rare case of internet technology companies, does) but, instead, the banks profited for making bad investment decisions and loaning people with no collateral or credit money. The banks knew these folks wouldn't be able to pay the loans, but lent anyway because they stood to make money either way.
The wall between savings and loan banks and investment banks was ended due to pushes for deregulation by financial industry lobbyists — the Glass-Steigall Act that was put into place in the 30s to prevent another great depression. This opened the floodgates for betting on sub-prime mortgages. Wall Street isn't creating anything for our economy right now other than speculative bubbles where they drive the market up as high as it can go by gambling on how much things will be worth in the future, thereby inflating investor confidence and value, until the whole thing bursts causing economic collapse. Privatized gains, socialized losses — we get fired, our pay cut, our pensions go away, health insurance goes away, we work two jobs, while the executives of these companies who engaged in criminal behavior walked away with a taxpayer bailout.
Now to your point about the government causing the crash. It is very common to blame this all on reforms attempting to assist low-income families get mortgages — first of all, the legislation that passed was watered down by the financial industry's lobby. Any reform is sure to just be a band-aid to shut people up. Again, the government and Wall Street are virtually synonymous, we don't have a way to vote against the banks.
There is a ton of great financial reporting on what happened during the collapse.
You had brokers who were making a killing convincing people to take sub-prime loans and lying to those who had never bought a home before about what their payments would be. You had Alan Greenspan telling people how great Adjustable Rate Mortgages were right before he damn well knew he was going to jack up interest rates so his banker buddies could make a killing. You had lending banks who WANTED to sell sub-prime mortgages, because they had no liability. All they did was sell the mortgages to the investment banks on Wall Street, who were packaging them into investment opportunities and bribing rating agencies to rate horrible horrible mortgages as a sound investments, and selling off the packages for a hefty profit. Then, in order to shore up their risk, they took out insurance policies called Credit Default Swaps, which basically meant, even if the homeowners default on their mortgage payments, the investment banks still made a profit with the insurance money. But AIG had insured more than it could back up, and when Goldman Sachs came calling because the whole scam started falling apart, that's when all hell broke loose.
This isn't an either/or problem — that's why we're protesting in DC too. This is an endemic problem that involves corruption of industry, government, unions, and educational institutions. Government is in collusion with Wall Street and a select number of multinational corporations who have NO loyalty to the success of the United States… they are global companies and care little about the gainful employment of American citizens if it ceases to serve their interests. For the last few decades they've been chipping away at our democracy, and now control both political parties.
Do we want a market where profit is placed before the stability of the market itself and we are saddled in debt because the concentrated economic powers in this country want to benefit when the market collapses or bubbles, A market where as long as oligarchies are too big to fail, the taxpayer has to bail them out?
As long as they buy politicians, or get their friends appointed into presidential cabinets, nothing will change. I want a market where real entrepreneurs and job creators can fairly compete with oligarchies and monopolies who use our tax dollars to shore up their bad investments and manufacture or produce nothing beyond speculative bubbles.
The usual channels have been exhausted. Please know OWS is completely aware of the corruption of the Federal government… but it also recognizes that we have a complex global economy where major players wield a disproportionate amount of power through corrupt governments around the world.
DC is just the buffer that Wall Street keeps up between us and them to keep the rabble at bay. The Federal government is comprised of high-priced puppets who use wedge issues to keep Americans fighting amongst themselves.
OWS is about people waking up and finally going after the puppeteers.
Jason M. Glover been there done that nasty people very few actually people that love this country.
Um… My understanding of the OWS movement is that it Anti Corruption – NOT Anti Capitalism. While they Are people down there are completely against capitalism, that is the opinion of a few.
Jason M. Glover: No one has a right to cause pain and suffering to their neighbour!
Linda Lawrence, you need a reality check. If you truly believe that the Occupy movement "wants to end capitalism and usher in socialism," then you need to find a reliable source of information. I strongly suspect that you rely on corporate propaganda machines like Faux News to tell you what to think rather than seeking the *truth* for yourself. People, stop being puppets!
Jason M. Glover I basically agree with you on the problem. I suspect that I disagree with you on the solution. We have crony capitalism because the gov is involved in the market place. Business should rise or fall on its own without gov help or hinderence. We do not need more gov or more gov regulation to fix the problem we need less gov and less gov involved in the market place. Please remember the gov and not the market created subprime morgages. The market would not create these as they do not make economic sense unless subsidised by the taxpayers. We should not be in the business of putting people in houses they can not afford and prior to the Community Reinvestment Act would not have qualified for. The gov including our present WH occupant screwed up the market place and is now using the crises to expand its power, i.e., Dood – Frank, etc.
It should be very instructive about how easily our Constitutional Rights can be usurped with the New York trumping of the Second Amendment rights of its citizens.
Jason M. Glover Nyet, Comrade Glover
All you need to know about these people is to see who's supporting them: Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-il, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama…Need I go on?
The liberal establishment doesn't support OWS or they wouldn't be funded by Wall Street. They say whatever can to turn this into a elect Democrats movement. Well, they are going to be sorely disappointed since we see through their lies.
OWS doesn't Need Obama's support. He is cautiously trying to harness Some of the movement for his own political gain, but quite frankly, the movement doesn't need it or want it. He's part of the problem!
Ron Mitchell, I don't know where you get the idea that we want any politicians or celebrities to support us. We don't care what THEY think. We are everyday Americans. We care only what everyday Americans think. And we DO want you to THINK about where this country is headed if we don't come together to find ways of getting the money out of our politics. Do you believe we really have democracy in the USA? Or is it possible that we are living under fascism? Although I do not speak for anyone other than myself, it is my experience that the people involved in the Occupy movement want to wake people up to what is really happening to us. If we let things continue down this path of corruption and greed between the corporations and government, it won't be long before we are completely enslaved. I, personally, do not want to leave that legacy for my children and grandchildren. I implore everyone to please stop giving credence to what the mainstream media is telling you to believe. You will never get the truth from them–about anything, including about the people and purpose of the Occupy movement. Get your information from the source. Visit an Occupation near you and take the time–with an open mind–to talk to people there and see what this is really all about.
Christine Roeder I've never been to an Occupy rally and I've never been to a Tea Party rally. Maybe you do not want the support of politicians or celebrities, but regarding those that do tells the rest of us plenty about what the OWS movement is all about. The way I see it, is that OWS is chastising govt for become too large and corrupt, yet their embracing of Marxist principles, which has led to endorsements from several Marxist politicians/celebrities implies that their solution is more govt. I have real issues with that.
This country was founded as a Republic, not a Democracy and our founders were pretty adamant about that. The separation of powers: legislative, executive, judicial, is still unique to the United States and it is essential to our enjoying more freedoms that any people in history. Under the Marxist utopia that the Occupiers envision, that separation disappears and along with it, the freedoms we now enjoy, including the freedom to peaceably assemble.
One thing that history has taught us about Marxism, is that there is no room in it for dissent or peaceful assembly to protest anything. Academia, who initially push for Marxism, are among the first targeted for execution by the regime once it takes complete power and academia realize that they've been duped. Enjoy the freedom to protest, and be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
Christine Anons
You flatter yourself to think that you are better informed than any other citizen.
With every right comes a responsibility, something protesters have conveniently
forgotten.New Yorkers pick up after their dogs & they shouldn't have to pick up
after spoiled brats. Your actions show that you have no respect for others.
If you cared about our country, you would not abuse its citizens. You remind me
of Castro, who used to blow into NYC & trash every place that he stayed.He had
no respect for anyone & it showed.
Teach people to be discerning in validating what they get in the MSM.Your method alienates
people. It certainly alienates me.
Ron Mitchell Jr. The way you see it doesn't seem to be the way anyone participating in this movement on the ground sees it. You dislike large corrupt government, we dislike large corrupt government. The financial collapse is an example of what happens when large corrupt financial institutions work with a large corrupt government to rig a system in their own interest thereby eliminating all their risk and leaving only gains — defeating the purpose of a true market economy which should be driven by innovators and entrepreneurs competing for who has the best ideas and business smarts on an even playing field. Instead we have a casino we call a "free market" wherein the "house" AKA Wall Street and corrupt politicians always win, and the people (the 99%) always take the hit when the the excesses and greed of the 1% balloon up the economy until it bursts and taxpayers are left picking up the pieces.
A plutocracy is still not a republic either. Even if you thought having a representative republic is ideal, this is still not the situation we find ourselves in. Where we find ourselves is a situation where those with the money make all the rules, and most of their rules involve making things harder on average people and easier on themselves.
I love how OWS is simultaneously being accused of being comprised of hippies (anti-authority "free spirits" who may be concerned about growing more weed, but certainly not growing a government that prevents them from smoking weed) and anarchists (the definition of which is the elimination of all centralized authority over local autonomous communities), and also is accused of being "big government". If we liked the government we all wouldn't think there is such a problem with it.
You are right that everyone has a different idea in mind as far as a solution… but we can't solve the problem of money corrupting our political process if we first don't all get on the same page that it's a big issue.
Just so everyone is aware… the OWS movement across the country and world has tried to work with city authorities. Some places, such as Portland, we have the support of our city government and police force and there have been few arrests or problems.
Archaic laws and the private ownership of what should be public space are being used to attempt and stifle our constitutional rights.
Many occupy camps have requested the ability to have portapotties present to prevent the "defecation" problem, and the cities refuse, including NYC.
As far as the noise, seriously? It's NYC! And the urination? Seriously! It's NYC! At least someone is feeding the homeless so they don't bug you for money. I haven't seen a single homeless person on the streets since Occupy Portland started, and I have to say it's quite nice.
Remember, OWS is not for big government as much as Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the corporate media stands to gain by convincing you of this.
What we want is an end to CORRUPTION of the government by corporations and special interest groups. We can get back to our disagreements when we have a functioning representative government again.
and why should the city have to psy for a potapotties for you???????????????????
Mitchell Penneau They want to pay for it, the city refuses to grant them the permit. OWS has plenty of resources since people around the world are donating them money. Don't you understand? Bloomberg WANTS them to look like dirty hippies so average Americans don't get behind the movement. The thing is, it's not working because we are communicating with eachother instead of listening to what our TVs tell us. I know it's not working, because when I go to OWS protests I see a cross-section of American citizens. So yeah, that includes some hippies, and some assholes. Hippies and assholes exist in our country. But I am willing to accept the fact that not everyone showing up at these protests is going to share my viewpoints on every issue. What matters is we all agree this country is headed in a bad direction and this is due to the corruption of the federal government by $$ and special interests.
Jason M. Glover
good for the sity
Mitchell Penneau You have every right to disagree with the protests. I just try to clear up misinformation, cuz there's a lot of it out there. If you think it's great that the city won't allow the protesters to pay for an outhouse so that things are both harder on them and the local residents, that is fine. Just so long as we are both on the same page, because that is what happened, and is happening, not just in NYC but around the world in 1000s of cities in over 80 countries. Authorities are attempting to suppress this any way they can — be that denying permits, digging up laws meant to address homelessness and not the right to peacefully assemble. (the constitution didn't put a time limit on peaceful assembly). If the same sorts of things that are going on in the U.S. were going on in a developing nation, we'd be watching our news media report the "lack of freedom" of the citizens of this totalitarian regime.
Obama and Hillary Clinton have been waxing on about how great protest is for the Middle East, and how we should support the youth movements crying out for democracy. And yet, what do we get from Obama that has the news media saying he "supports" the protest — an expression of "understanding that people are upset."
Not a single mention of the police brutality, or use of force by authorities very similar to some of the things which recently unfolded in Egypt (remember the horses? Well now they are being used against us here at home). And if it wasn't for the videos going viral via twitter and citizen journalists, we most likely wouldn't even be talking about this right now.
This is an AMERICAN issue, and honestly, if we are going to pull this off, we need the majority of conservatives on the same page as the majority of liberals. It won't be easy, we are going to disagree, but we have to trust in each other, and trust that none of us want harm to come to this country. We just want to fight for the ideals and values our school's taught us to believe in: justice and liberty for all.
Now let's show the rest of the world what freedom means. Get down there, get active, let your voices be heard.
that should have been city.,
Sounds like your a little naive. If you ban donating money to campaigns, candidates will find some other way to get "Monetary" contributions to there campaign. If you want to see human creativity at its absolute best, have the government ban something. You will never see people more resourceful.
put your address down so i can come over to your house and take what i want sleep where i want and poop where i want.
Conservatives, liberals, and independents must unite to get back our representative democracy so voting actually matters again. One proposal is a constitutional amendment making election day a federal holiday (so working people have time to vote) and banning private contributions to campaigns (either all, or any over $100). No one owns the airwaves. Media companies license them from the public and are allowed to profit enormously. In exchange they are supposed to serve the will of the public when it comes to announcing natural disasters or educating us about political candidates. Media companies should be required to give all candidates an equal platform during election season.
I respect that many of us disagree on a lot of things, but can we at least not agree that the corruption of our political process by Wall Street and special interests is bad for our country and our "free market" economy? (In quotes because I feel we have corporate socialism, where bad businesses are propped up by taxpayer dollars).
Imagine a future where politicians run on the merit of their ideas, and campaign ads educate instead of character assassinate.
Since the Mayor said it was okay for them to stay. Then I think he should pick up the tab for the clean up out of his own pocket. Why should the taxpayers of New York pick up the tab. I hope the people of New York can outlast the protesters, the weather will be turning cold. Let the Democratic party, obama and the mayor pick up the tab for providing tents with heat in them.
You say you're okay with the Democratic party and Obama picking up the tab. What do they have to do with the Occupy movement, other than the fact that they, too, are corrupt and greedy?
Actually the the OWS crowd is camped on PRIVATE property…not NYC property. The owner would like them removed but the City is too afraid of what the confrontation might lead too.
When New York City is so willingly the fools of these vagrant juvenile delinquents, thieves and old hippies as 'protestors', then we know even the once tough American city is full of cowards.
http://www.alternet.org/story/152812/why_are_police_attacking_peaceful_protesters_how_ows_has_exposed_the_militarization_of_us_law_enforcement?page=2
The media doesn't tell the whole story, just like they didn't with the Tea Party. The police in Portland are working with the protesters, and there are a lot let problems since they know police are there to keep them safe. There are fringe elements at any protest. I would indeed consider the beating of unarmed American citizens by the NYPD and police departments around the country to be cowardly indeed.
You mean 50,000 vagrant juvenile delinquents? Unless you've Actually gone down there to see for yourself the kinds of people that are there -not just one or two or ten or twenty people – but the thousands of people that are down there, you might see that these are not just "hippies". And even so, what makes this Huge group a bunch of hippies? Perhaps you should go down there and catch the massive horde of naked peace loving stoners on camera so we can see for ourselves. Secondly, why does it matter if they are hippies at all? It doesnt matter whether or not you are hipster, goth, white collar, blue collar, punk, young or old – These are People exercising their right to protest and assemble and have done so peacefully.
These 50,000 people are Anti-Corruption, standing against the influence of corporations on our government and the corruption of the banking system through which banks extract billions of dollars out of our government. How does that make them cowards?
Kristin Kitahara So, what has it accomplished other than promoting the program of the American Communist Party? Van Jones and his ilk are ecstatic that all these "Useful Idiots" have shown up and disgusted the country.
Keith Smith seems like they've inspired the country to me. Just turn off your TV and go see for yourself. But that said, we aren't promoting that stuff, many groups and individuals have issued statements in support, but those individual's support was not requested, sought after, and nothing was done to get it. The cause is an umbrella that is bringing together people from all over the political spectrum. Yes, that includes "communists" but it also includes libertarians and others. And you know when libertarians AND the socialist workers party are on the same page, something is at least worth looking into.
Bloomberg what a joke. He is a waste of space.
Well, see its not that necessarily doubt this is going on, there are too many people there, and a lot of people are stupid, and stupid people en masse will do stupid things. Its more that I am curious as I have not seen anything like that and some media saying they're anti semetic, druggies, and having sex in public etc, to me it looks like this is the same idea that falls in line with that – that its being done by a small minority, and because its being done by a few, its being focused on. But.. despite these claims I have not seen anything of that nature, and like I said, while I don't really doubt it, I'm just surprised that videos/pictures of these things have not popped up.
why have we never heard anything like this at Tea Party rallies? the liberal media despise them but the worst they can do is accuse them of racism. they leave anywhere they protest in the same condition it was when they arrived.
Craig Farrar The point that I am making is that it is a minority, just like liberals liked to point out that the Tea Party is racist – its a Minority that doesn't reflect actions made by the entire group itself.
Craig Farrar, the Occupations are not rallies, so that should partially answer your question. The Occupiers are not leaving their places of protest. I respectfully recommend that you reserve your opinion on that issue until such time that it is relevant. Even so, I can guarantee that here, at Occupy Phoenix, the protesters are extremely conscientious about keeping our plaza clean and safe for all, and I know that all other Occupied locations are striving toward, if not already achieving, great success in that regard. Any filth or lack of organization you are seeing at Occupation sites is largely due to the fact that our city and county governments are taking every opportunity to subversively make the Occupation as difficult as possible by denying us basic human necessities like access to toilets/porta-potties (which we can pay for ourselves–no taxpayer dollars required) and the ability to sleep without threat of arrest. We are being subjected to what would normally be recognized as torture techniques. The corrupt aim to crush the movement before America gets the chance to see what we are actually trying to achieve. The corporatocracy does not want the American people to once again think for themselves. They do not want to be held accountable for THEIR massively destructive actions. They do not want us to realize how enslaved we really are. I would hazard to say that a war of suppression and character assassination is being intentionally waged against the people of the Occupy movement, and indeed against all Americans. I hope that the citizens of our country will soon see through the lies of the corrupt and power-hungry minority that seek total control of every aspect of our lives. Personally, I am stunned and saddened that so many of my fellow countrymen prefer to perpetuate the slander and marginalize the protesters rather than be outraged about the inhumane and brutal treatment we are being subjected to simply because we want our government to serve The People instead of pandering to big money interests.
Get some courage. That's what is needed. As long as the people who live there are willing to allow themselves to be treated like serfs because the politicians they voted into office and support with their taxes are looking towards the 2012 election and see their wants, needs, security issues as irrelevant are allowed to get away with it they will. And, those who allow it will deserve what they get. Has anyone ever thought of starting a recall petition drive to remove those politicians from office now or in 2012. Seems like decision time. Occupy Wall Street is the face of Political Correctness gone amuck, Corrupt Politicians, Sexual Perversion, Depravity, EVIL, a civilization in decline by design. YOU the people have the POWER. Take it back! USE IT! Keep the faith and the conversation going!
I don't think I should have to pay the debt that I incurred all by myself. Should I protest too? I don't know anybody that has a credit card, house, student loan or any other kind of debt without applying for it first. You asked for the debt, now pay your debt.
I've read this entire thread and I just want to commend Jason M. Glover for rationally stating his case. I have no idea if your (Jason) ideas about OWS are wide spread or not because you're the first person I've heard articulate what it's about, the way you have here. I am a conservative and have no problem standing with you. I will not agree with everything you've said, of course.
I blame Washington far more than I do Wall Street for this mess. Every trail leads directly back to certain parties in D.C. At any rate… thank you for taking the time to share your views. I would suggest however that those of you that are protesting (for the reasons you state) immediately separate and condemn the actions of 'the fringe' that are destroying any chance of voices like yours getting through. Don't just accept that they show up at these things and be glad that they have the right to voice their opinions. Their opinions are harmful to this nation. Their actions are disgusting. And they are drowning out what you're trying to get across. There are times to take a stand and sometimes that means standing alone.