By Todd Starnes
Religious leaders from around the nation were nearly unanimous in their condemnation of President Obama’s announcement that he now supports gay marriage.
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“It is very depressing news when the president of the United States uses his power of influence to endorse same-sex marriage,” Bryant Wright, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, told Baptist Press. “… Scripture is very clear that from the beginning, God intended marriage to be between one man and one woman. It is important for us who are followers of Jesus to uphold the sacredness of marriage according to Scripture.”
Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, issued a statement saying Catholics could not “be silent in the face of words or actions that would undermine the institution of marriage.”
“The people of this country, especially our children, deserve better,” Dolan wrote in a statement, saying that he was “deeply saddened.”
Frank Page, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committee, told Baptist Press he was “saddened” and “deeply disappointed” by Obama’s announcement. ”No matter what culture may dictate with its ever-changing winds, I am grateful for the sure and unchanging source of authority we have in Scripture,” Page said. “We must hold to God’s Word on this and many other issues.”
Conservative advocacy groups were also unified in their condemnation.
“This shows that the Obama administration doesn’t understand the public purpose of marriage,” said Jim Campbell of the Alliance Defense Fund. “It’s not something that politicians should attempt to redefine for political purposes.”
Mat Staver, chairman of Liberty Counsel Action, said he was not surprised by the president’s move — and predicted it would elevate the importance of the 2012 presidential election.
“We are six months away from arguably the most critical national election in our lifetime,” Staver said. “America is headed in the wrong direction; we are on the edge of a moral, financial, spiritual and national security abyss.”
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Consensus negates leadership. Is that the phrase? Has this guy ever had moral viewpoint that was carved in stone?
Way to go Obama! Once again standing against the forces of bigotry and hatred. If Jesus exists and ever returned, he'd be saddened by how these "Christians" have subverted a message of love.
Oh c'mon – you know this is an election ploy. For the last almost four years he hasn't supported. Now suddenly…c'mon. lol.
Dear Daniel, Jesus does exist, He lives today and His Holy Spirit is linked to my human spirit. He will come again and He will bless those who bless Him and obey His Word. These leaders who are speaking out speak for millions of us who have accepted Jesus as our savior. Only when your spirit is born, can you truly live. Otherwise, you remain spiritually dead, and unable to see the riches God has for you in Christ. True happiness comes from living a life obedient to God. These leaders know this and they want to point others to that same freedom, peace and joy found in Christ.
You do know we don't live in a theocracy? Can you give a reason against gay marriage that isn't based on your faith?
So you are against the principle of liberty and freedom then?
How disgusting you are to say that unbelievers like myself are spiritually dead unless we think the way you do. And, of course, still without a lick of evidence for your supernatural claims.
Matthew 25 31-46 shame on you mary meens un american and un christian
Alex Agotsch could you explain that a little bit ?
You are free to worship whatever you like. What you cannot do is impose that on those of us who feel differently. We are all entitled to freedom of religion, not just those who believe as you do.
I'm not spiritually dead…I hate it when "Christians" say that crap to people who don't believe what they do.
Alex Agotsch Hi Alex. Yes, I echo Michael's comment, could you please explain why you cited the passage in Matthew?
Mary Meens . Take care how you treat the least of them because that is how you treat Jesus. His spirit does not just live in you, it lives in everyone, even gay atheist liberals. So take care not to cram your version of God down others throats A good Christian has open arms for everyone, they do not make exclusionary comments and obvious psychological reinforcement statements because their idea of God makes them feel warm and fuzzy.
Alex Agotsch huh, wow. Thank you Alex. <bows> I must admit, you're one of the very few Christians who practice that.
Michael Shigetani generally speaking the Christian churches are lost. As long as we live in an age of literalism people will continue to misread the bible as the literal word of God. Nothing could be more preposterous. Ahhh…but I digress.
Michael Shigetani generally speaking the Christian churches are lost. As long as we live in an age of literalism people will continue to misread the bible as the literal word of God. Nothing could be more preposterous. Ahhh…but I digress.
Alex Agotsch But it's such an interesting digresion! I had the honor of studying genesis under a professor who read Aramaic, the result being a very different Genesis than King James Version.
Alex Agotsch But it's such an interesting digresion! I had the honor of studying genesis under a professor who read Aramaic, the result being a very different Genesis than King James Version.
Michael Shigetani Yes the translation issues are interesting, but by and large irrelevant from a spiritual standpoint. Because they are all old stories retold in the bible through a new filter (Jesus), but the motifs are the same because the human condition hasn't really changed over the eons. Science has changed, and more aptly answers the cosmological questions that the church had previously held in monopoly, and here is where the church really struggles. Because it still argues that Mary literally had a virgin birth, that Jonah was literally in the belly of a whale, that the Earth was literally created in seven days. We know this is historical fiction, but the church would have you believe in what amount to magic, which one could argue makes one a candidate for mental decompensation (insanity).
For example "love your enemy" doesn't mean exactly that you should feel erotically for him, but instead feel an appreciation for him because he defines your destiny. You are honed by that which resists you.
Modern Christians are generally pretty abominable in their arrogance of convenient revelation.
Judge not that ye be not judged? Love your neighbor as yourself? Let ye without sin cast the first stone? Meaningless? Well, Mary Meens, if you are any indication, yes.
People like you and the rest of your fundie ilk think more about gay sex than gay people do. Why is that?
Quit trying to be the Bedroom Police and focus on your own life. I'm sure you have plenty of work to do on yourself as most of us do. It's none of your concern who consenting adults marry.
Michael Shigetani Take any two animals of male or female gender, put them in a cage for as long as you like, see if those animals have sex and bare offspring. I doubt if they will so if an animal knows that it is unnatural then why is it so hard for humans to understand that it has nothing to do with religion but everything to do with nature. If it wasn't for male on male sex there would be no aids,is your brain to small to understand that nature meant for it to be male and female and that religion had nothing to do with that. Whether you believe in creation or evolution that is the way nature planned it, (MALE AND FEMALE) Anything other than that is the doings of perverted humans.
William Bentley *sigh*
Please educate yourself. Here's some links to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gay-animals-and-evolution
http://www.livescience.com/1125-homosexual-animals-closet.html
Furthermore, you seem to be implying that marriage/sex is only for having children. Does that mean that you believe that people who can't have children shouldn't be allowed to marry? What about elderly couples? BTW, why do you care who other consenting adults marry? Seriously, how will effect you/your marriage?
If you don't believe in gay marriage, there's a simple solution. Don't marry a man.
William Bentley 1. AIDS is not a direct result of homosexuality. If it was, it would have been around several THOUSAND years ago. Because homosexuality has been around since, well, humanity. There are BOOKS written about homosexuality and the ancient world. 2. I know for a fact that cats and dogs have had sex, repeaditly, both seemed to enjoy it. (yes this was something i witnessed. ) No offsping, but that wasn't stopping them. 3. We, as humans do so many "unnatural" things in a single day your arguement is a waste of time.
Michael Shigetani I'M not talking about inbreeding in animals or cats and dogs breeding, I;M talking about 2 male or female of the same species. they may sniff each other but that is about as far as it goes. As for aids we know where it came from but was first spread by men having sex and then they passed it to females and so on. I wonder if Rock Hudson would have done things different had he known he was going to die from aids. To me its just common sense that it is meant to be male and female but that's just me. i could not bring myself to lie down with another man. I think the aids thing is nature letting people know that what they are doing is wrong.
William Bentley, I see you would rather skip the articles I posted to you. However, as much as you may want to state otherwise, what you're saying about animals of the same species is just untrue. If you want to maintain your aversion to homosexuality, you are certainly entitled to, but at least be honest about it. You don't care if it's right or wrong. It grosses you out, and that is enough for you to believe gays should have 2nd class citizenship. So sad.
William Bentley 1. There are gay animals. Really. Deal with it. 2. The origin of AIDS is not some conspiracy. It was a very tragic set of circumstances; and no it wasn't some germ warfare thing either. Nor was it beastality. As for how it spread, new information indicates that several of the first people exposed were BISEXUAL. You know, people who like both sexes? 3.I'm not gay either. But I don't give a damn what people do sexually as LONG AS IT'S SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL. I'd prefer adults only; BUT I know there's a TON of sexually active teens out there. (which is a WHOLE seaprate issue) We might all like things to be different, but we have to deal with how things ARE.
Kim Arr Nicely put
Dear Daniel, Jesus does exist, He lives today and His Holy Spirit is linked to my human spirit. He will come again and He will bless those who bless Him and obey His Word. These leaders who are speaking out speak for millions of us who have accepted Jesus as our savior. Only when your spirit is born, can you truly live. Otherwise, you remain spiritually dead, and unable to see the riches God has for you in Christ. True happiness comes from living a life obedient to God. These leaders know this and they want to point others to that same freedom, peace and joy found in Christ.
Mary: I will be praying with you for Daniel. He does not realize that Jesus is holy but also merciful. The only hope these people have is the deliverance that God gives us through His salvation.
assuming you're christian. And not everyone in America is.
Way to go Obama! @Mary Meens; @Michael Nathan, you do know we don't live in a theocracy right? Can you give a legal reason against gay marriage?
Whenever a state is given the chance to vote on same sex marriage, the people have voted against it, every time. You're correct, we don't live in a Theocracy. Whenever our Democratic process is followed, the people's voice is heard.
Joseph Rivera Not everywhere. I'd also point out that slavery wasn't ended democratically either.
Joseph Rivera Interracial marriage wasn't ended by democracy or majority vote. Civil rights absolutely should never be put up to a vote. You are on the wrong side of history brother.
Slavery was ended in the U.S by a constitutional amendment, which means it was passed by Congress and agreed to by 2/3 of the states. That is democracy at work. Faith played a major role in the establishment of this country. Our history books do not teach this. This info is available if you search for it.
Kenneth Oldridge Ok, let's try this: If America becomes a "Christian Nation" as you, and so many others want it: Where does it stop? What happens to those of us who don't want to become Christian? What happens to homosexuals? Can you guarentee our safety? Will we be allowed to worship as we please? Will gays be allowed to live their lives ? What about the Churches that DO allow homosexual marriage? (and there are christian churches that do.) Which laws of Leviticus do we ignore? Who will say which one's we ignore and which ones become law?
The arguements made against homosexual marriage are the EXACT ones made against: interracial marriage, freeing the slaves, letting women have equal rights. Bible passages were used in all of those arguements. MORE than are quoted against homosexuality. So either we take women's rights away, ban interracial marriage and enslave blacks; or maybe the Bible is better seen as A holy book, one of many. Maybe this is why our founding fathers insisted on Seapration of Church and state?
No one should be forced to join a religion. God gave us free will. True Christians will not force it on you. They should share their faith and through polite conversation. I have not problem talking and treating peope of different beliefs. I will however will try to get them to see what the consequences of their life will be if they do not repent of their sin and we are all sinners. A true Christian will not sit in judgement of another person. We will try to help them see where there behavior is leading them. You ask good questions. I am not opposed to interracial marriage, it exsist in my family. Also believe in equal rights and oppose slavery in any form. Yes, I oppose gay marriage on bibical grounds. As I stated earlier, it is a sinnful life style, but we are all sinners so that does not make me better than them. The seperation of church and state is greatly misunderstood in today's world. I was a political science major in college and teach U.S. Government. Government can not dictate religion or force reilgion on people. That does not mean that religious symbols of our past need to be removed. Example of religions influence on law is the Ten Commandments. These are the same for Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Buddism has some beliefs that are very similar. Better shut up now and get on the some projects around the house. Hope you did not mind me posting on your Facebook on these subjects.
Kenneth Oldridge Don't mind you posting at all. I finished prepping dinner myself. This is not the same thing as posting the Ten Commandments. This is telling one group of people that they are not equal. By doing that, you ARE sitting in judegement. This is not a matter of faith, it's a matter of LAW. Either we are all equal before the law, and that includes marriage, or this isn't a democracy and we should stop pretending.
Kenneth Oldridge I'm going to quote a good friend of mine, because frankly he put it better:
As several people – including my father and a few friends – have asked me, "Why do gays want to MARRY? Why not have civil domestic partnerships and let things go at that?"
Because a domestic partnership is not legally or socially respected as a marriage.
Domestic partnerships are recognized or withdrawn at the convenience of whomever chooses to recognize or withdraw them… a fact evidenced by North Carolina's Amendment One, which technically invalidates ALL domestic partnerships, regardless of the orientations of the people involved.
As I said yesterday with regards to Amendment One, once again – as in California and elsewhere – one group of people decided to withdraw rights from another group of people through popular vote.
Michael Shigetani. Sorry that you were exposed to Christians with the wrong ideas. Christ taught to reach out to others with love. We can best reach out to others by forming relationships. I walked away from church and wandered in the wilderness for 30 years. I did not deny the exsistence of God, just did not follow his teaching. Then about 10 years ago, some life events caused me to reconsider my beliefs and I surrender to Him. It changed my life. I have discover the is was people of faith that were the leaders in struggles to end slavery, and other social problems such as prison reform and woman's right to vote,etc. I would urge all to read the teaching of Jesus in the Bible. Find out who the Biblical Jesus is and what he taught, not the man made image of Him. Sadly, many Christians did not live the life of one.
When it comes to whether something is right or wrong, where do we draw the line. Some has stated on the issue of gay marriage, Christians are trying to deny a civil right. Is any behavior a then a civil right if a group claims it is? The Mormans were denied being able to have multiply wives. Is then a violation of their civil riigts How about if a group claimed child porn is a civil right? How about marrying a child? The point I am trying to make is where do we draw the line on what is is right and wrong. I personally feel that the best guide on that is the Bible.
Kenneth Oldridge Child porn is a non issue because the child doesn't concent. I would also point out that children were married off in Chirstian countries. The point is this: Beastiality and child porn aren't the same as gay marriage: With Gay marriage we are talking about CONSENTING ADULTS! Get it? A dog cannot consent. A child cannot consent. A child isn't an adult. As for multiple partners; that's a different tangle. One which requires a lot of thought. And yes, marriage is a civil right. It's about equality. It's about power. Let me put it this way: Being a Buddhist is a choice. Would you deny two Buddhists the right to marry?
Kenneth Oldridge Child porn is a non issue because the child doesn't concent. I would also point out that children were married off in Chirstian countries. The point is this: Beastiality and child porn aren't the same as gay marriage: With Gay marriage we are talking about CONSENTING ADULTS! Get it? A dog cannot consent. A child cannot consent. A child isn't an adult. As for multiple partners; that's a different tangle. One which requires a lot of thought. And yes, marriage is a civil right. It's about equality. It's about power. Let me put it this way: Being a Buddhist is a choice. Would you deny two Buddhists the right to marry?
No, I would deny a Buddist or any other religious group the right to marry. I agree with the consent point. Be careful with the consenting adults argument. Someone may ask if is OK for consenting adults to do some other acts that are clearly illegal, but they may want to argue them under the can not dicate morals position. You know more about what being Buddist is. I would imagine there is some common ideas about morals and some differences as well. Another comment about religion. Religion is man made, I prefer a relationship with God, I do not want to follow man's verision of life and religion, but follow God's will.
Kenneth Oldridge Then your logic fails. Two gay consenting adults want to marry. Why deny them this? If homosexuality is not a choice (And I don't believe it is) then they can no more deny their love than you or I can change the color of our skin. If Homosexuality is a choice; well so is religion. We do not live in a theocracy. If you say they cannot marry; you invalidate their love. In effect; you tell them they don't matter. You are free to follow YOUR God's will. I am free to follow MINE. Both are valid.
Micheal, you have really challenged me. I have discovered that I am very poor at explaining what I believe on this subject and why. I am a lousy writer. I have much to learn yet. The Bible verses my position comes from are Gensis 13:13, and 19 :4-7; Leviticus 18:22; Judges 19: 16 – 22; Romans 1: 26 -27; and 1 Corinthians 6: 9 -11. Up until 12 years ago, I would probably have been agreeing with you on this subject. It was a God encounter in my life that made me realize the faultness of man's thinking and how wrong I was in my thinking and way of life. Will not bore you with the details. Will close with this: I care deeply about sharing the grace andsalvation that Christ gave us on the cross and sharing that with people. Thank you for allowing me to have this exchange of ideas.
Kenneth Oldridge Glad I could give you something to think about. Feel free to message me anytime.
It's about time Obama endorsed equality before the law. These religious leaders have nothing to say except "Sodom and Gomorrah" and "think of the children". If these religious leaders were thinking of the children, then they would be supporting marriage, not actively working against it.
AMEN! (ok sorry, had to, my sarcasim is showing;) ) Let's just forget that most pedophiles are straight men. ("Think of the children") If you can give me a rational, legal, non-faith based reason to oppose gay marriage, I'll listen. (Not you Erik Jensen, just putting the idea out there)
People who oppose gay marriage cannot claim they believe in freedom and liberty. The Principle of freedom: People are free to think, believe, & act as they choose so long as they do not infringe on the equal freedom of others. I'm not saying one is better than the other only don't be hypocrites and say you are against gay marriage at the same time you are crying suppression of your freedom of speech rights.
Agreed. Don't know what the fuss is all about. There's idiots and there's us.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. No one has proven that homosexuality is anything other than a choice. There is no gay gene and therefore it's not a "human right". Natural law has always been procreation only happens with a man and a woman. This doesn't come from the perspective of faith, it just IS.
so our rights are proscribed by your sense of natural history? who the fuck are you?
So we'll ignore the fact that homosexuality occurs in nature? As for the "gay gene", current study indicates it's not a single gene, more like a cluster of them spread throughout the genome. Which makes sense if you think about all the things that have to happen when you get turned on. Just out of curiosity, when did you choose to be straight?
So we'll ignore the fact that homosexuality occurs in nature? As for the "gay gene", current study indicates it's not a single gene, more like a cluster of them spread throughout the genome. Which makes sense if you think about all the things that have to happen when you get turned on. Just out of curiosity, when did you choose to be straight?
Yes, and being overweight or left handed is a choice too, right? Moreover, are you implying that you have gay feelings that you have chosen not to act upon?
So you chose to be heterosexual? I like women, and thats not a choice I made, that just my nature. So I can understand how some would naturally feel attraction to the same gender.
Nick Wright Same here. To all those who think it's a choice: Try being attracted to a member of your sex for five minutes. CHOOSE to be gay for an hour. See how easy that was? (sarcasim off now.)
Michael Shigetani Perhaps Joesph is battling with his own sexual orientation and his own feelings. Thinking he can "choose" what he is attracted to. Stop fighting it Joesph Rivera, you'll feel better.
Michael Shigetani lots of things occur in "nature". Doesn't make it right. We don't eat our young as some animals do. I guess it depends on your perspective. If we are no better than the animals than I guess it's okay to support homosexuality by their example. As for the studies on the gay gene. You can chose to look at the "evidence" as conclusive if it supports your original premise. However, there is a lot of controversy on the validity of the science behind it. Still not proven. As for when I chose my heterosexuality, my "choice" is supported by the natural law that drives me to want to procreate in the only way that I as created to.
Tim Gale If it can change, it's a choice. With regard to your question, I think it's safe to say that many men can feel a same sex attraction and there can be powerful forces that drive them to act on their feelings. I also know that feelings can lie to us. So being able to reason and base my life on something other than what I'm feeling helps me to see past such an illogical desire. It also helps that God made my wife so gorgeous.
Joseph Rivera ok. Let's say homosexuality is a choice. So what? So is religion. Does that mean you won't let Buddhists marry because their marriage isn't recognized as Christian? The point is we don't live in a theocracy. That means NO ONE gets to make laws based on faith. No laws made based on the Torach, no shiah law. No Laws based on Dharma, or celtic shamanism (thank gods) Just because your holy books says it's wrong doesn't mean you get to impose it on the rest of us. Can you give a reason gays shouldn't marry that isn't based on faith?
It matters not what "god" thinks of gay marriage. Its a civil rights issue. Your god does not shape our public policy. If you don't believe in gay marriage, that is your right and you don't have to have one! No church has to perform a gay marriage. But under our constitution, everyone is to be treated equal and there is absolutely no reason to deny the right to marriage based on sexual orientation. None at all.
Your anti-gay bigotry is just getting worse and worse Todd Starnes. Believe what you want about your faith, that is your right. But you don't have a right to impose that faith on the rest of us. And as a heterosexual married man, I can assure you, that no gay marriage will have any effect whatsoever on my marriage, so you can drop that whole 'war on marriage' crap you are spewing.
Thanks for praying for me Mary and Michael Nathan. I'll ignore the subtle condescension in your offer and will pray for you as well. For different reasons I'm sure. And like Tim above, I have a meaningful spiritual life that may be different from yours but no less important.
Thanks for praying for me Mary and Michael Nathan. I'll ignore the subtle condescension in your offer and will pray for you as well. For different reasons I'm sure. And like Tim above, I have a meaningful spiritual life that may be different from yours but no less important.
Sorry Nick, that response was for Mary. Darn iPad touch screen!!!
Also, back in 1967, the Supreme Court had to tell North Carolina that they were not allowed to ban interracial marriage. I predict in the coming years a similar ruling will be required so that the bigots in the south can't ban same sex couples from marrying. This is a civil rights issue, and those of you opposed are intolerant fools on the wrong side of history. WE ARE ALL EQUAL.
Pres. Obama jumped the shark and has taken the democratic party with him.
Maybe, doesn't change the fact he did the right thing.
Maybe, doesn't change the fact he did the right thing.
The best answer for those who disagree with my statements is, "Taste and see that the Lord is good, blessed is the man (or woman) who takes refuge in Him." Psalm 34:8. Jesus Christ wants to have a personal relationship with every person on this page. Seeing life from His perspective gives you a supernatural and eternal view. I pray each of you will discover it for yourself.
I was raised Episcopal. I was born again. I left, because of attiudes like yours. I HAVE meet born again gays. Who are in commiteed relationships. The idea that homosexuality is a sin is one of the major reasons people are leaving Christianity. You are also missing the main point. We do not live in a theocracy. As Nick Wight pointed out, you are free to believe as you wish. But there is NO rational, non faith based reason to deny gays the privilage of marriage. How many straight couples do you know have been together for 30 years or more? The first gay couple that got legally married in Mass. had been together for almost 40 years. If God is about love, why would he care what's in your pants?
Michael Shigetani Hi Michael. God is Love and when he created you, He had a plan for your life. His desire was that you would be raised by two loving parents, one male and one female. Now, if that story is not true for you and you can't think of a time when you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt you were deeply loved by both of your parents, that may be when your desire to seek affection and acceptance outside the norm began.
I am glad to know you have been born again. I would like to hear your testimony. But I don't agree that people can be true Christ-followers, with the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, and live in a state of sin True Christ-followers would be those who study the life and words of Jesus and strive to be obedient to His commands. God says that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as with a woman. If Jesus is God, and He is, and the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead, and He is, whatever Jesus or God said in the Bible will be brought to your attention by the Holy Spirit. His job is to remind you all that God has taught.
Mary Meens Ok. I was born again in high school. I left 4 square fellowship when they A. DEMANDED I burn my dungeons and dragons books. B. DEMANDED I stop talking with the Japanese side of my family because they're Buddhists. (I was raised with a episcopal mother and buddhist father, so yes I learned both) C. DEMANDED I not associate with a friend of mine because she was a lesbian. I attended Pacific Lutheran University, and it was there, in my freshman year, that I had my first true Vision. Of the Goddess, and Jesus. It was a very interesting night. And a very personal one. But that night I choose to leave Christanity and become a pagan. Mary, I am not seeking anyone's approval. I know I am loved, and that the path I am on is the one that is right, FOR ME. You are not addressing the issues I'm speaking of. I am not addressing Faith. I am saying, that the State cannot make a law that is based on a single religion. That way lies Madness.
Mary loves the sinner (all of us) hates the sin. But we have a way out from our separation from God and that is through Jesus Christ.
Cheryl Lorenz That's fine. Good you believe that. But that doesn't give you or I the right to make laws based on our faith.
Michael Shigetani Hi Michael. Thank you for sharing your life's path. Even on our best day, humans are a poor example of the love of Christ. I know there are denominations that capitalize on what NOT to do as a Christian. But that is a work of the flesh. Obeying God – rather than man's interpretation – is most important. Denominations (or religions) are man-made with man-made doctrines. They have been used mightily by Satan and his demons to distort the message of the Gospel. I'm sorry you did not feel accepted there. After my husband and I were asked to leave our Southern Baptist Church, when we had led "the most successful ministry at that church" for 9 years, we vowed to never go to a denominational church again. We clearly felt that we were living under a "lid." I only recommend a Bible-teaching, non-denominational churches. Or, you can just meet with a few friends and have your own Bible study. You can do church at home. I hope you will reconsider Christianity as just between you and Jesus.
But regarding your last comment, did you know that most of our founding fathers were Christians, and that sermons preached by Christian pastors of that day, are actually a part of our Declaration of Independence? I just learned these facts within the past 6 months! Our American History books have been revised to exclude all references to this and many other facts. Our country was founded on Christian principles – not on a "religion" – but upon the confident relationships that our founding fathers had with Jesus Christ, through the study of His Word. Please see http://www.wallbuilders.com for more info.
Mary Meens Ok, let's try this: If America becomes a "Christian Nation" as you, and so many others want it: Where does it stop? What happens to those of us who don't want to become Christian? What happens to homosexuals? Can you guarentee our safety? Will we be allowed to worship as we please? Will gays be allowed to live their lives ? What about the Churches that DO allow homosexual marriage? (and there are christian churches that do.) Which laws of Leviticus do we ignore? Who will say which one's we ignore and which ones become law?
The arguements made against homosexual marriage are the EXACT ones made against: interracial marriage, freeing the slaves, letting women have equal rights. Bible passages were used in all of those arguements. MORE than are quoted against homosexuality. So either we take women's rights away, ban interracial marriage and enslave blacks; or maybe the Bible is better seen as A holy book, one of many.
Mary Meens and just for the record, did you miss the part where I said I'm a pagan?
Mary Meens and just for the record, did you miss the part where I said I'm a pagan?
Michael Shigetani Hi Michael. I did see that. But will you stay a pagan when Jesus returns, since you were "born again" ? On that special day, your name was written in the Book of Life.
Mary Meens Well here we disagree. I don't think Rapture is happening. i believe in reincarnation. My life, my soul. My Sins. I claim all. I'm responsible for my soul, my sins. to quote a fave singer "Jesus died for somebodies sins, but not mine" I notice you haven't responded to my earlier post.
Michael Shigetani Hi Michael. America was founded on Christian principles and our founding documents were written by Christians, including text from sermons of pastors in the Declaration of Independence. Please see http://www.wallbuilders.com to learn the facts that were revised out of our American History books.
I think it is the role of Christians to reach out to homosexuals in kindness and love – not criticizing them – because Jesus said, He who is without sin should cast the first stone. There's no one like that, so we all need to humble ourselves before God, as we each live in obedience to his commands.
Homosexuals seem to make a bigger deal out of their sex lives than I do. It's their identity. I don't know why they only want to be known for who they sleep with. Could you explain it?
Mary Meens All the homosexual's i've meet don't make a big deal of their sex lives. Most of them are mongoamous. Some are very open about what they like, but I've meet plenty of straight women who'll tell you every detail of an encounter for the asking. And I've meet plenty of men and women, of all orientations, that get upset if you ask them anything. I think you percieve them as making a big deal about their sex lives. It's PART of their identity. And it's a part of themselves that society has been actively trying to suppress.
Michael, Sorry I'm not so quick to respond, but my boss pays me to get some work done. So, you want to be your own savior, what plan do you have to avoid Hell? You are free to make up your own "reality" and believe whatever you want, but Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It will be the Way He says, because He is the Creator and we are the created. Check out the book, 23 Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese.
Mary Meens we all have busy lives. I read 23 minutes in Hell. I wasn't impressed. I've had harder vision quests. I stated i belive in reincarantion, not that I'm my own saviour. I believe that when I die, I will be reborn, here. It's more complicated than that, but i don't feel like writing it all out right now. What I really want to say is this: My beliefs are as valid as yours. That is the whole damn POINT. If you want to make a law based on belief, that's wrong. How about this: Would you be opposed to me trying to make a law based on Celtic practices? Let's say: Every marriage has to be renewed after a year and a day. Would you be opposed to that?
Y'know Mary, you fool yourself when you subscribe to the idea that people are against your god and beliefs. They're not the problem. The problem is people like you who are not self-aware enough to realize that you use your god and beliefs to smugly justify being a bigot.
Steve, I feel that the only reason the gays are pushing the marriage issue is to legitimize this lifestyle. Why aren't they just content living together? I feel that to establish a home to raise children in is a distortion of the way we are naturally made. Two men cannot father children, nor can two women. Children raised by a loving mother and a loving father – having each role model – have the best chances for healthy relational development.
Are you married? If so, why? Gays want to get married FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS! Not every straight couple wants children either. Why weren't you content to live together?
Are you married? If so, why? Gays want to get married FOR THE EXACT SAME REASONS! Not every straight couple wants children either. Why weren't you content to live together?
Should two sterile people get married or two older people who can't have kids?
Amen
Amen Mary!
Should we assume that you, Mary Means, are not married, and will never get married, simply because you are content enough just living with your significant other?
The marriage relationship is supposed to be the manifestation of Christ's relationship with His Church, or believers. If marriage is done correctly, a husband will love his wife just as Christ loves the Church and is willing to lay down his life for her. In turn, the woman will respond in loving respect and honor for her husband. Jesus loves us and we should respect him. I am married and we are working on a marriage that exemplifies Christ's relationship with the Church. My Catholic upbringing, plus the relationship I now have with Christ, will not allow me to "shack up" as we used to say. Plus, if you are interested in God's best for your life, that is the wrong way to go.
Mary Meens Ok, so "shacking up" isn't good enough for you, but it perfectly fine for gay people?
I'm a heterosexual married man. Not religious, so my marriage relationship has nothing to do with your christ. Now, I understand and respect your religious beliefs, but why on earth should those beliefs allow you to dictate that others should not be allowed to have that same marriage relationship that you and I both have the right to enjoy?
It's like telling someone else they can't eat a donut because you are on a diet.
Alright y'all. I'm bowing out since there's no reasoning with crazy! Hopefully the Marys and Cheryls of the world don't end up running it otherwise anyone who differs is sh*t out of luck. I wish you all well (especially the sane people, you know who you are…).
Alright y'all. I'm bowing out since there's no reasoning with crazy! Hopefully the Marys and Cheryls of the world don't end up running it otherwise anyone who differs is sh*t out of luck. I wish you all well (especially the sane people, you know who you are…).
Mary Meens Again, you're basing your statements on belief. Belief is not fact. Fact: Every culture on the planet has an equilent of marriage. They're not all Christian. By your defination every Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto and Islamic marriage is invalid.
This is part of why we have seapration of church and state
Sorry, that last comment was in answer to Michael.
Steve, I totally support liberty and freedom and the freedoms we enjoy as Americans. But just as good parents don't allow their children to participate in certain activities, God does not want us to either. That's why He gave us direction in His Word. Boundaries keep children on the right path. Allowing gay couples to marry and elevate that equal to God-ordained male-female marriage that can produce offspring, is like telling God He didn't know something.
Tim, I am sorry you are disgusted by my comments. I was raised Catholic, but I was spiritually born in November, 1986. It's like I started walking 3 feet off the ground and I haven't come down since. I believe that spiritual death entered the perfect world God created in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. We were all spiritually dead at birth – stained with that same sin. But, spiritual life is now available to each of us individually because of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. If you have only been born once, you are cheating yourself of life to the fullest. Ask Jesus to reveal it to you. His conversation in John 3 with Nicodemus talks about spiritual birth.
Again, you're assuming everyone should be Christian. I'm curious what you'd say to a Buddhist.
Again, you're assuming everyone should be Christian. I'm curious what you'd say to a Buddhist.
She's not only assuming they should be Christians but a very specific Christian. Obama is a Christian but I guess not the right sort in this.
Michael Shigetani Hi Michael. I just know that my spiritual birth was the best thing that ever happened to me. But if you will agree that Jesus died for you, (John 3:16) then maybe it's Him assuming you should be a Christian. He said, I have come that they may have life and have it more abundantly." If he did it for me, I don't know why he wouldn't do the same for you, or any Buddhist with a heart to seek Him.
Daniel Krewson Hi Daniel. Mr. Obama has a way with words, and the way his statement was presented yesterday, saying that his belief in Jesus played a part in his decision to favor gay marriage is very concerning. Anyone can say they are a Christian, but it takes knowledge of God's Word to put it into practice. From what I know about Mr. Obama, I would never guess he is a Christian. And from what I know about God, I would be very concerned if I were Mr. Obama. God does not take kindly to being misrepresented. And when God administers correction, there is no escape.
Mary Meens You are missing my points. 1. How can you say a Buddhist, or anyone who devotedly follows a faith OTHER than yours is spirtually dead? I'm sorry, but to me that sounds horribly arrogant. 2. You cannot pass a law based on faith, ANY faith. I'm pagan, and I would STRONGLY oppose a group trying to pass a law based on Dharma or Wicca.
Mary, I agree with you. A true Christian is one that has a relationship wtih God and follows his teachings. We are all sinners and repentance of sin is the key. Christian are commanded to spread the Word of God to all and do so with love. The Bible makes it clear the consequences of sin without repentance.
Kenneth Oldridge I'm not opposed to people being Christian. I'm opposed to ANYONE making laws based on faith. Be that Christian, Muslim, Pagan, or Buddhist.
Kenneth Oldridge I'm not opposed to people being Christian. I'm opposed to ANYONE making laws based on faith. Be that Christian, Muslim, Pagan, or Buddhist.
Oh no the world will end if homosexuals can get married! They'll ruin the sanctity of marriage – AHHHHH! Of course the divorce rates in the US reflect the high regards heterosexuals hold marriage. There are legal marriage and religious marriage ceremonies. Who cares if LEGALLY they can get married – people can keep the religious part. If a homosexual couple wants a religious ceremony that badly, there are a few churches who will marry homosexuals. Go there. But I don't see why two consenting adults who want to be in a relationship can't have the same benefits as everyone else.
How about this – just take away all the federal benefits for marriage. No one said you HAVE to get them. Marriage isn't really a right – it's a privilege. How about no one gets married, how about that? I don't know why people want to anyway. For most (not all, most) Americans it's a joke anyway.
Hm, well, my wife and I are happily married. But you're right about that pesky divorce rate.
Hi Kelly, I have to agree that the divorce rate has not spoken well for traditional marriage, and most regrettable is that the divorce rate for church-goers is about the same as the unchurched. I have been divorced and I worked in a ministry to the separated and divorced, which included many single parents for over 12 years. Pre-marital counseling with programs like FOCCUS is the best way to alleviate the issues of conflict that you most definitely will have over the course of a marriage. I don't recommend getting married without it. The way to do marriage is "learned" by watching our parents – how many of them handled it perfectly? But there are many issues common to man that couples have to negotiate. Proverbs 15:22 says that plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many counselors is success.
Michael Shigetani I didn't say ALL marriages are shams in the US. But a lot are. Example: Friend of mine married his wife for all the wrong reasons. He has said repeatedly he considers her like a "roommate," he always sleeps on the couch, he doesn't love her and wants to get a divorce. So I tell him "Then just do it." Well she threatens him that he won't see the kids if he leaves her. There are a lot of marriages like that. One doesn't want to be in the relationship, it's obviously done, but the other person refuses to let go.
Mary Meens My parents never should've been married. In fact, they got married in the Catholic church so they had to do the six months of counseling before getting married. Priest tells them he doesn't think they should get married. He says to my dad "It's not because of you. You're ready for marriage." Looks at my mom "You; however, are not ready for marriage. You're not mature enough yet." Well needless my mom got pissed but the priest said "But I guess you'll get married even if I won't do it won't you/" And my dad said yes so the priest married them. My dad deserved waaaay better than her and now he has the woman he should've always been with in my stepmom. I just wish he would've had happiness sooner than in his fifties. But even with counseling people can still get married when they shouldn't.
If I meet someone who I have a connection to, who is someone I can be with AND who does not have the emotional hangups (that I seem to constantly attract in guys) I might get married. I really don't see the need to have a piece of paper tell me I'm committed though. I can be in a committed relationship without marriage BUT there are legal things that only come with marriage.
Kelly Calder Couldn't agree more. Lots of people get married for the wrong reasons. Lots of people STAY married for the wrong reasons. My only advice for those thinking about getting married (including you) is this: Live together for at least a year. And yes Mary Meens, i do endorse sex before marriage. Lots of it. For reasons that would take at least two pages.
Michael Shigetani Well you don't buy a car without test driving it right? Same with marriage lol.
Kelly Calder EXACTLY! It's amazing how annoying someone you love can be at two in the morning.
Kelly Calder EXACTLY! It's amazing how annoying someone you love can be at two in the morning.
Obama be on the down low. If he was Christian or Muslim he couldn't support gay marriage.
No, christians and muslims can support gay marriage rights. Just because you have religious beliefs doesn't mean everyone else has them, and those beliefs should not shape public policy. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. But to try to tell others they should not because it goes against your religion is like telling someone they can't have a donut because you are on a diet.
No, christians and muslims can support gay marriage rights. Just because you have religious beliefs doesn't mean everyone else has them, and those beliefs should not shape public policy. If you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. But to try to tell others they should not because it goes against your religion is like telling someone they can't have a donut because you are on a diet.
Nick Wright Hi Nick, Good analogy, LOL – but the donut you may have will not change the direction of our society as we know it. I believe that protection of the traditional family – man, woman and child – is vital to maintain American society. And religion is not why I say that. I'm not affiliated with any religion. I have a personal relationship with Jesus by reading the Bible.
Mary Meens Well, you've just contradicted yourself in your own paragraph. You are Christian. Christanity is a religion. And yes, you are basing your descision on faith. Which is the problem. You are free to discriminating or not in your own life. you are free to make descions based on your faith, FOR YOU. You do not get to tell me or my gay friends what they can and cannot do, based on YOUR faith.
That includes my gay christian friends.
Mary Meens Well, you've just contradicted yourself in your own paragraph. You are Christian. Christanity is a religion. And yes, you are basing your descision on faith. Which is the problem. You are free to discriminating or not in your own life. you are free to make descions based on your faith, FOR YOU. You do not get to tell me or my gay friends what they can and cannot do, based on YOUR faith.
That includes my gay christian friends.
Mary Meens Its not going to change the society in any way, other than for the better because now everyone has the same rights and the same liberties. 7 states have had gay marriage for a while now and I've yet to see any evidence that their societies are on the decline.
Tyronne Shoelaces I think He'll do just fine in November.
Tyronne Shoelaces I think He'll do just fine in November.
Happy retirement OBie!
Happy retirement OBie!
I'm going to quote a good friend of mine, because frankly he put it better:
As several people – including my father and a few friends – have asked me, "Why do gays want to MARRY? Why not have civil domestic partnerships and let things go at that?"
Because a domestic partnership is not legally or socially respected as a marriage.
Domestic partnerships are recognized or withdrawn at the convenience of whomever chooses to recognize or withdraw them… a fact evidenced by North Carolina's Amendment One, which technically invalidates ALL domestic partnerships, regardless of the orientations of the people involved.
As I said yesterday with regards to Amendment One, once again – as in California and elsewhere – one group of people decided to withdraw rights from another group of people through popular vote.
And that is an abomination to the entire ideal behind the United States.
Period.
END. OF. STORY.
That various generalized assumptions about "what homosexuals want" or "what gays do" make perfect illustrations for why such a practices destroy the fabric of any reasonable society.
Supposed I argued that "all Catholics want" to molest children. I mean, there is unquestionable and overwhelming proof that Catholic priests have done that, and that Catholic authorities have covered it up, therefore the exact same argument can be made about Catholic pederasty as can be made about gay marriage. Do YOU want to molest children? Of course not (I hope…). Do all Catholics want to molest children? What an absurd, offensive idea.
And yet, THE EXACT SAME LOGIC is being used to define "what homosexuals want" – often by making exactly that same comparison – and it is being used to deny rights and even humanity to a group of citizens as a result. If I were to convince a majority of my fellow citizens that all Catholics want to molest children, and we put it to a vote, and the result of that vote was to have all Catholic children taken away from their parents by force of law, would that be legally, morally or factually RIGHT?
Of course not.
Nor is it right to deny gay people similar rights because of the same kind of factually incorrect slander.
And yet, that is EXACTLY what happens if and when someone in authority is confronted with a "domestic partnership" he or she does not agree with: Whatever rights may be involved are immediately revoked. Children are taken from their parents. Partners are refused hospital visitation. Wills are invalidated. Benefits are denied. Inheritances are confiscated. People are banned from funerals. It happens EVERY SINGLE DAY, and IT IS WRONG. Corrosive to our society, and unspeakably wrong from a human perspective.
Ideally, laws exist because someone or something is being abused, and that abuse needs to end because such abuse harms society. When one group of citizens, taxpayers, contributors to the society – be they blacks, gays, Latinos, women, Catholics, whatever – may have their lives curtailed, their rights revoked, their property seized, their humanity crushed by legal fiat for no reason other than another group's distaste for their existence, SOCIETY IS HARMED AND THE ABUSE MUST END.
And thus, laws to end such discrimination are passed.
These are not "special laws." They are not "privileges." They are necessary methods to protect a society's citizens from one another.
In a nation like ours, laws exist to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority… and although they were rather bad at real-life applications of that principle when it pertained to blacks, women, Native Americans, and – yes – even Catholics, that ideal goes back to the Founding Fathers themselves. It has taken us over two centuries to gain the promises of the Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence for ALL American citizens, but the promises are there.
And honestly, I give not one flying fuck if one group of people's 4000-year-old law code can be interpreted as an eternal condemnation of another group of people. The faithful can believe such things if they like (picking and choosing, of course, which of those law codes to take as gospel and which to discard), but I refuse to be bound by those beliefs. Period. Point-blank. No.
We are not talking about prohibitions against theft or murder within the society – prohibitions found in any society's codes of law. (Don't even get me started about how every society ignores those prohibitions when they apply to OTHER societies; I may start quoting Samuel and Deuteronomy, and that'll get ugly.) We're talking about the laws in which a group of people is demonized simply for existing.
Meanwhile, as a society, we are NOT going to pass laws that make us stone rape victims to death (Deuteronomy 22:23-24), kill children who talk back to their parents (Exodus 21:7, Matthew 15:4, etc.), let us take foreign women as sex-slaves (Deuteronomy 20: 10-14), or invalidate debts every seven years (Deuteronomy 15:1). Why, then, do we have such maniacal – and yes, they are delusional, irrational and often violent… and thus by definition maniacal – obsessions about the humanity of gay people?
Saying "Well, my holy book says so" is not a valid argument in this society.
If you want to make laws that way, move to Iran.
Try to make them here, and we WILL have a problem about it.
Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, Netherlands, Norway, Portugaul, South Africa, Spain, Sweeden. Ten predominatly christian countries that have legalized gay marriage. I'd also like to remind people that you can't sell your daughter, or do pre arrainged marriages here. Thus we have all ready redfined Marraige over the last hundred years. We do not live in a theocracy. You are free to have your religion. You are not free to use that religion to take away others freedoms. Which is what has been done in regards to gay marriage.