Jul 2, 2012
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A Baptist church in New York City is facing backlash after they passed out flyers inviting children from a nearby public school to attend Vacation Bible School. Some neighborhood parents accused the church of being discriminatory because they oppose gay marriage.
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The Vacation Bible School was hosted by Sixth Avenue Baptist Church – a week-long event featuring songs, games, arts & crafts and Bible stories. They were assisted in the event by a youth group from South Carolina that was in New York City doing missionary work.
Local parents became outraged when three members of the visiting mission team handed students promotional flyers inviting them to attend the church event.
Parents at P.S. 282 told local media they were outraged for two reasons. First, they said the church discriminated against homosexuals. They were also upset that the individuals handing out the flyers were white. The school is predominantly African-American.
“I know this church,” parent Ernestine Heldring told DNAInfo.com. “Every summer they truck these kids up to proselytize. It’s a grand of Christianity that’s homophobic and homogenous, and I find it oppressive to have three white guys standing there making it impossible for kids to pass without taking a flyer.”
Another parent was furious that the Baptist church would invite “outsiders” to come into the neighborhood to do missionary work.
“These outsiders from South Carolina are showing little respect for our school, our neighborhood, our diversity and our values here in Brooklyn,” one father wrote to the online publication.
Heldring also blasted the conservative Baptist congregation for their opposition to gay marriage – and noted that a number of students at the school have gay parents.
She accused them of practicing a form of Christianity that’s “exclusive” and “discriminatory.”
The New York City Dept. of Education said to their knowledge no formal complaint had been filed over the flyer distribution.
Richard Johnson, the pastor of Sixth Avenue Baptist Church, told Fox News Radio he was surprised by the controversy.
“It’s really sad that a group like the gay and lesbian crowd that preaches a message of tolerance can be so very intolerant of somebody else that may happen to have a little bit of a different view,” he said. “There are some who are opposed to the message of Christianity and we understand that – but they took it to the next stop and verbally attacked us – when we did not pick a fight.”
Sixth Avenue Baptist Church is steeped in history. It was founded 145 years ago by Robert Wadsworth Lowry, the famed writer of church hymns like “Nothing But the Blood” and “Low in the Grave He Lay.”
Johnson said the church takes pride in being a Bible-believing congregation.
“We’re not trying to pick a fight,” he said. “We’re not trying to be offensive in any way. We’re just trying to love our neighbors.”
Johnson said the flyers were “very generic” and “non-offensive.” He said gay marriage had absolutely nothing to do with the Vacation Bible School event.
“The gay marriage agenda is the farthest thing from that particular series of events,” he said. “We decorated t-shirts, tie-dyed baseball caps and had Bible stories.”
He suggested that perhaps local gay and lesbian leaders had another agenda in attacking the church.
“In their determination, they look to exercise a choice not only for themselves, but for what other people should be able to have or not have,” he said. “Who are they to speak for the neighborhood as a whole?”
Johnson was also disturbed by the suggestion that having white individuals distribute literature at the school was someone racist.
“The racial makeup of our church mirrors the makeup of that school,” he said – noting that whites are actually a minority within the church membership.
Regardless of the controversy, Johnson said they will not deviate from their beliefs.
“We don’t deny the fact that we believe the Biblical definition of marriage is what it is,” he said. “I think American is quickly become a secular society – if we’re not already there.”
“We can’t allow some of the hate-mongering as they reject the Gospel to spill over onto us,” he said. “We still need to make sure we are gracious and loving. Our calling card is not to bash anyone else. We are out to stand for the love of Christ – the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World.”
FOX News Talk
A hundred thumbs up for Pastor Johnson!
This pastor is a hero. He says it like it is. The gays are trying to do as much damage as they can before Obummer is out in November. Then they can crawl back into their closets.
Our soldiers are heroes. Cops who do their job and don't abuse their power are heroes. Firefighters who save lives are heroes. This pastor had flyers passed out. You have a very low bar set for what constitutes a hero.
As an Army war vet I completely uderstand the point you are making. However, when people are routinely mocked and vilified just for speaking to their own privately held convictions it does become a brave act just to be willing to do so. If you say you are pro-life they say you only feel that way because you are a misogynist. If you believe homosexuality to be sinful then you are a homophobe etc. We do ALL a disservice wehen we shut down civil debate with namecalling. I know this isn't what you are doing but so MANY do that it is brave to stand up and speak on certain topics… http://www.kjv-truth-ministries.org
I agree that the name calling in debates has got to stop – that is no longer a debate. People should not be mocked for personally held beliefs. If you believe homosexuality is a sin, I think you are wrong, but so be it. The issue is when people take that belief of sinful nature and try to enact global legislation on it. Legislation isn't based on "sin" as it pertains to a single religion. But your overall point is spot on – free speech shuts down when we shut down civil debate with namecalling. Maybe if our "leaders" in Washington started setting the example by quitting the namecalling themselves, it would hopefully spread to the rest of the country.
Joe -again the flyers were passed out to all, reaching out across the lines. You said above about rights of freedom of religion. This pastor has a right to preach what the Bible says. Parents aren't forced to take their kids their they are just letting people know they are having a Bible school. Whose foot did they step on here. No ones at all. These kids can go or not – if parents know what the church stands for and you don't like it don't let them go. The gripe about handing them to a mostly African American kids – if they hadn't they would have been called racist/bigots. So this church can't win for losing. And Joe, the legislation of marriage is in the constitution…a marriage between a man and a women. Your right about our government they have become the biggest problem this nation has.
Please show me where in the constitution it says anything about marriage. The word does not even exist in the document. Does the pastor have the right to preach about the Bible? Absolutely and undeniably. Does he have the right to preach it anywhere he wants to? Absolutely not. There are limitations. Schools have been consistently ruled by the Supreme Court as one of those constitutionally limited areas. True, parents do not have to take their kids. But it is advertisement for a particular religion's activities on school grounds. Unless the school is specifically allowing this for all religious groups, they cannot hand out the flyers promoting a religious event/activity. Our schools here prohibit the advertisement of any religious activity – all are treated equal. The gripe about the race, I don't get. It is majority African American, the guys handing them out happened to be white. Its a stretch at best.
Joe you have kids that are young in the school system still. As they get older, they get and receive information about numerous things. Schools have picked and chosen what they let in. It is only separation when it suits them. Our high school government classes brought in a conservative person/ who only plans were to address the kids on following your dreams, get an education, get involved in your govt and got turned away at the front door by the principal after he approved it. One week later they let in another speaker that pushed planned parenthood and the right of choice to have an abortion. I don't teach at their school as you can't teach at the same school your child attends, we as parents were not given any heads up which would have allow us to pull our kids from the assembly. We should have been notified just as we are with their health class if you want your child to participate in certain areas of what they are teaching. I fill out a form and check what I would and wouldn't want my child to participate in…if they don't participate they are given a different assignment. I as a parent prefer that my husband and I have our "talks" with our children so we can answer any questions they might have. I teach h.s. english and I am at times very upset with what books these kids are made to read. It would make you skin crawl and yet I have to do it whether I like it or not because it is part of the classroom objectives for the year. I am just saying that even when we have to agree to disagree that there are those of us who disagree privately in our own way and others who take every chance they can to make a stink. Trust me when I say our education system is going down hill, it is unfortunate but it is the case and even your own beliefs for you and your family will be put to the test.
Joe you have kids that are young in the school system still. As they get older, they get and receive information about numerous things. Schools have picked and chosen what they let in. It is only separation when it suits them. Our high school government classes brought in a conservative person/ who only plans were to address the kids on following your dreams, get an education, get involved in your govt and got turned away at the front door by the principal after he approved it. One week later they let in another speaker that pushed planned parenthood and the right of choice to have an abortion. I don't teach at their school as you can't teach at the same school your child attends, we as parents were not given any heads up which would have allow us to pull our kids from the assembly. We should have been notified just as we are with their health class if you want your child to participate in certain areas of what they are teaching. I fill out a form and check what I would and wouldn't want my child to participate in…if they don't participate they are given a different assignment. I as a parent prefer that my husband and I have our "talks" with our children so we can answer any questions they might have. I teach h.s. english and I am at times very upset with what books these kids are made to read. It would make you skin crawl and yet I have to do it whether I like it or not because it is part of the classroom objectives for the year. I am just saying that even when we have to agree to disagree that there are those of us who disagree privately in our own way and others who take every chance they can to make a stink. Trust me when I say our education system is going down hill, it is unfortunate but it is the case and even your own beliefs for you and your family will be put to the test.
Joe Gonzalez
Your right up to the point where you say that pastors arent heroes. Pastors, like missionaries have done a lot for society, like for example: counseling those in emotional pain, feeding the poor of the community, clothing the naked, educating the uneducated, going into dangerous lands to conduct humanitarian outreach, providing shelter, distrubuting food and water to the needy in the poor areas of foreign lands, building homes and schools, providing medicine and medical care. If that doesnt constitute a hero, then there's something wrong with you. I'd like to see you do these same things and dare to call yourself a hero.
Great points Joel, it is easy for people to point out what they feel is wrong and are always neglectful of the good. Our church has a "Friendship House" it is for the whole community to come to. It gives out free food, clothes, helps pays utility bills and provides information on other places do in the community when homeless, women who abused and/or raped, where to find housing. The Salvation Army is a Christian organization and they get involved in a lot of the natural disasters. When we as people play into these stories it doesn't provide anything but more hatred. I notice that these stories are becoming more prevalent than the good do ones! Sad state of affairs.
Barabara Watts Goss
Its a good thing when we honor those that make a difference in life: the troops, police, firemen etc, derservedly of course. And then there are people who would include the media, Holy-wood and sports personalities….undeservedly. But we seem to omit those that give their lives, giving up a good life with all the perks in favor of being in the service of humanitarianism as it concerns the gospel, and sometimes putting their safety at risk for the sake of helping the sick, weak, uneducated, poor and the helpless.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know men will never recognize those who quietly do things, I do know God knows and that is why those of us do the things we do, not for recognition but because we know it is the right thing even when ridiculed. Have a blessed day sir!
Joel Rivera I said VERY specifically that THIS pastor was not a hero. I have a great deal of respect for those who commit to the life of a missionary. I never said pastors in general aren't heroes, so please don't put words in my mouth. I am quite involved in my community as well, including helping to run a low income housing project for ten people and running numerous fundraisers and food drives for the local Food Bank. I help house the homeless, and I help feed the hungry, but my part is small and I am certainly no hero – I am just doing my part. I come nowhere close to the service that many of these missionaries show being on the ground in many impoverished nations. Doing so is heroism. Handing out flyers to a summer camp is not. Again, she stated that THIS pastor was no hero, I stated that THIS pastor was no such thing. Anything else is what you read into my words that is clearly not there.
Joe Gonzalez You are incorrect that it is a "single religion" saying homosexuality is a sin. Christianity isn't a religion. Denominations are religions. It's not up to you or me whether homosexuality is a sin. The Word of God says it is.
If you don't think Bible preaching pastors are heros, you have never been a bible preaching pastor. Trying to not to offend the world is the first mistake. God and his word will always offend the world, because the world is Satan's stronghold.
Amen!
"We did not pick a fight." That is laughable. You take your Christian flyers to a PUBLIC school to hand them out to kids with varying beliefs, including those you know are alienated by your religion. That is asking for trouble. Stand in front of the sidewalk outside your church and hand them out to passersby. There is no need for this to have happened at a public school, though I'm sure Starnes and company see the reaction as part of the fake "war on Christianity".
What is wrong with standing by the school? They want to teach kindergartners about Homosexuals at school, but a Church can't pass out fliers to kids so they can have fun during the summer? And , OH Lord!! They were White!!! How horrible!!!
And hey Joe, why are you a top commenter on this fox news site? Why do liberals think we want to hear what lies they've been feed? Or the indoctrination they have been raised on?
And hey Joe, why are you a top commenter on this fox news site? Why do liberals think we want to hear what lies they've been feed? Or the indoctrination they have been raised on?
Because I'm not a liberal. That's just a lie you are feeding yourself, that only liberals could possibly be against something like this happening. Sorry, you lose. And I don't see any classes in kindergarten teaching kids about homosexuality. Maybe where you live, but not near me. And I don't care what the hell color they were. They could be purple for all I care. Send a mailing. Stand out on the street and hand them out to people who want them. Don't stand there and create a blockade that the kids can't get past without getting a flyer. That is intimidating to little kids. Hand it to the parents in the parking lot if you want to be straight about it. And for the record, it was not only the homosexual parents that complained – others did as well. If I were there, you can guarantee I would be among them – and I am not homosexual or an atheist. Or a liberal. Or an Obama supporter. Or anything else you might want to use to figure out why I would be against this.
Yeah yeah yeah. Right. Well just what are you Joe? You weren't there, yet you know all. Hmm.
I know what I know the same way you do…by reading the stories about it. Can't go by much more than that. Where did I say I know all? I know what was reported. Of course, facts don't seem to matter to you, as you clearly still think I am a liberal. Why waste my breath explaining what I am and where I stand? Will it make a difference to you?
Probably not.
Joe, you are making a LOT of assumptions here. The people who COMPLAINED are the ones saying that people were blocking the path of the kids etc. IF that was true I can almost GUARANTEE they would'e been arrested. Do you not subscribe to the 1st amendment? The way I read it these people have EVERY right to gather peaceably and to distribute literature if they like. Atheists and Muslims can do the same. Freedom of speechand religion protect us all… http://www.kjv-truth-ministries.org
They may have that right, but not on public school grounds. Many public schools, my kids' included, have regulations preventing this – and it is their right to do so to protect the students. A public school is not "public" in terms of people showing up to hand out their flyers. It is public as to how it is paid for and who can attend to get an education. After that, it is government property where religion cannot be sponsored, preferred, etc. So no, I would say atheists and muslims cannot do the same, nor should they be able to. In our schools, religious institutions aren't allowed to even have their flyers passed out by teachers if they are promoting a religious event. I can have flyers passed out to advertise the chili cookoff I run every year that takes place at a religious building, because the event itself is secular, all money goes to the local Food Bank, and the religious institution housing the event makes nothing from it.
I live in Brooklyn for much of the year, I can tell you that the cops have better things to do than arrest these people.
They are still wrong to do what they've done. Would you support NAMBLA doing the exact same thing with their handouts?
@ Joe~ Perhaps you are an unbeliever–opposed to the gospel being brought to other unbelievers?
Joe~ Where in the world are you getting that they were "ON" the school grounds? Every account I have read of this mentions that they were inving children from the school–with absolutely NO mention that they were on the school grounds!! You are making HUGE assumptions to bolster a bias. IF they were on the school grounds, the police should have been called and they should have been removed. THAT did not happen, ergo there is not a single FACT to suggest that were on the grounds of the school! In fact MOST public schools can enforce that up to 100'–so likely they were not even that close!
I am a believer, I just don't believe the same religion you do. I have no opposition to the gospel, and have studied the bible extensively.
Oh, and by the way, I get my additional information because I read OTHER accounts of the story, not just the snipped stuff that Starnes posts.
From: http://usconstitutionalfreepress.wordpress.com/tag/sixth-avenue-baptist-church/
"The men allegedly stood at the public school’s front gate on Tuesday to hand out the invites during morning drop-off, a busy time during which children and parents flow into and out of the building."
Pics of the gat – a very small opening easily blocked – are here. WELL within 100 feet. Even 100 inches.
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120627/park-slope/baptist-missionaries-target-park-slope-students-at-school-parents-say/slideshow/popup/200174
I'm not gonna ask how you can possibly know WHAT I believe–you've simply made another assumption!
I read that, actually-and the word that stood out to me was "ALLEGEDLY." Again, if that were the case, and they were there "… during morning drop-off, a busy time during which children and parents flow into and out of the building." then why were the police not called? Why were they not removed? As to the pictures–I saw no picture of the entrance to the school. I saw a fence that ended at an opening, but did not show how wide that opening was. It seems as if you willingly leap to any assumption that supports your view on this. I'm not willing to do the same when the FACTS of the case do not support the assumptions. Neither the story, nor the slideshow, can uphold your view.
Please–let's agree that we disagree.
It is New York City. You think the cops might have had other issues on their hands? And trust me, its a pretty safe bet that you and I don't have the same religion. The fence is the entrance to the school. It is very clear from the picture that the fence continues two concrete blocks from where it starts. Also, if you bothered using Google and, you know, looking for more facts:
http://volcanicensemble.blogspot.com/2009/11/282good-2be-4gotten.html
Clear picture of the entrance and the gate. Not large at all. And by the way, all stories use "allegedly" even when there is enormous proof positive (I'm not saying there is in this case, just making a point about the usage). It's how newspapers and news outlets avoid lawsuits for libel if guilt is never proven, even if it exists.
It is New York City. You think the cops might have had other issues on their hands? And trust me, its a pretty safe bet that you and I don't have the same religion. The fence is the entrance to the school. It is very clear from the picture that the fence continues two concrete blocks from where it starts. Also, if you bothered using Google and, you know, looking for more facts:
http://volcanicensemble.blogspot.com/2009/11/282good-2be-4gotten.html
Clear picture of the entrance and the gate. Not large at all. And by the way, all stories use "allegedly" even when there is enormous proof positive (I'm not saying there is in this case, just making a point about the usage). It's how newspapers and news outlets avoid lawsuits for libel if guilt is never proven, even if it exists.
The school was by the church.
In fact, if you look at Google street view for Sixth Avenue Baptist Church, 97 Lincoln Place, Brooklyn, NY, you'll see the fence in question for the school is directly corner-crossed from the church. So they were simply handing out bland fliers to children across the street.
[PART I of reply]
I want to thank @Joe for his comments in particular, and thank this board overall for the largely thoughtful discussion on this topic.
I am a parent of a child at P.S 282. I observed the missionaries from Concord Baptist outside our school on June 26 at approximately 8:35am when I was dropping off my son (and also going there to vote).
The article above appears to be essentially a rehash of the DNAinfo.com article (http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120627/park-slope/baptist-missionaries-target-park-slope-students-at-school-parents-say), and there are several important points that I do not see reflected in this version. There is also an important point not present in the DNAInfo article itself (that P.S. 282 was an active voting place at the time this occurred) that is also omitted in the story above.
Here are some points I'd like to make to provide both background and further context:
- I am a Christian (Episcopalian) who attends church regularly. I am married, straight, and a father of 3 children. I have lived in Park Slope for 12 years. I grew up in New England, but one quarter of my family, through my paternal grandmother, is from South Carolina, in particular the area around Greenville, going back to the Revolutionary War.
- I know Ernestine Heldring, a fellow P.S. 282 parent, who is quoted in this article. She too is straight and married. She also is Christian and goes to church.
- I believe the race of the men from Concord as well as the racial mix of the children at P.S. 282 to be totally irrelevant to both what happened and this discussion. (This is mind, if people care, I am white and so is Ernestine).
- I respect that Concord Baptist is an esteemed member of the Pickens, SC community. I respect their rights to free speech as well as their commitment to Christ.
- While it is noteworthy that Concord chose to proselytize in a gay-friendly neighborhood in a gay-friendly city, neither the beliefs of this church nor the material it was distributing are/were my primary concern with what transpired.
- My primary objection is strange men approaching unaccompanied children. While I was aware that these men were likely associated with the group from South Carolina that comes up every year to visit 6th Avenue Baptist, it still nonetheless struck me as inappropriate for large, strange men to approach young children, especially those not with their with parents (i.e., those coming off buses or those who walk themselves to school). While the church may have been within its rights, I think many parents can understand why this would be a concern. Please keep in mind – most of the children who arrive at school are arriving without their parents at their side. In most cases from what I saw firsthand the men from Concord were approaching children who arriving to school without parents.
[CONTINUED BELOW ... ]
[PART II of reply]
- The school gate is no more than 15 feet long and 3 men were directly in front of it, equidistant from each other, making it virtually impossible for children to pass without interacting with someone from Concord.
- Something crucial left out of all this discussion is that the school at the time was an OPEN POLLING PLACE for primary day. There was a sign – still there today, outside the school that says “NO LOITERING. NO ELECTIONEERING. 100 Feet from entrance of building. Section 17-130 of Election Law.” (See http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/ELN/17/17-130 for more info on this law). At approximately 8:50am, I spoke to a New York City Police Officer in the school (there due to the elections) after I had dropped off my son and had voted. I asked him to intervene regarding Concord since I believed then, and still do today, that 1) Concords fit within the criteria of an “electioneer” (further validated by their since disclosed stance against gay marriage, a political issue), and 2) the three men from Concord standing outside the gate likely met the criteria for "loitering" as prescribed on election days. Though it appeared Concord was targeting P.S. 282 children, voters also had to pass by the men from Concord as they passed through the school gate.
- Though my primary objection is what is stated above – strangers approaching unaccompanied children, as Joe and some others have alluded to, it is hard to not view Concord's choice of neighborhood and school as not at least a little provocative. I find it hard to believe that the intent of Concord in standing directly in front of our school gate in Park Slope was purely to save souls – I'm sure there are plenty of souls that need saving without having to drive 750 miles. As a dad mentioned in the DNAinfo.com article, if the purpose of their trip was, say, to go to a “needy” neighborhood, Park Slope is not the neighborhood one would probably start with in New York City. While there are unquestionably fellow residents of our neighborhood who need help, support, and services, this is also a neighborhood where several "A list" Hollywood stars live just a couple blocks from P.S. 282. Others who live in Park Slope include numerous politicians (Chuck Schumer, Bill De Blasio), high-profile (and left-leaning) reporters/anchors, actors, writers, artists, hedge funders, VCs, and several well-known businesspeople. Park Slope is also home to a large gay and lesbian population. Unless Concord watched the Beau Bridges classic, "The Landlord," recently and thought that movie still represented Park Slope in 2012, I can't help but be inclined to think that the present make-up of the neighborhood – liberal, affluent, gay friendly, Hollywood connected – was part of Concord's calculus. Given the character and general leanings of the neighborhood, it is not surprising that some parents had objections not only to how Concord delivered its message (standing in front of a school gate approaching unaccompanied children) but also to the message itself, even if "just" an invite to Bible school, given the political views of the church. If you are on the record as against gay marriage, and drive 750 miles to proselytize on some of the most gay friendly blocks in the entire country, one might think you came to “pick a fight.”
[CONTINUED BELOW ... ]
[PART III of reply]
But to be clear, my primary concern is strange men approaching unaccompanied children, regardless of their well-meant intentions. I am Christian, was with my child, and was already familiar with Concord’s visits. What about those children who were unaccompanied, especially those children of parents of other faiths? Can you not understand why such a parent might object to 3 large men – strangers, approaching their children? And while Concord may have been within their rights (though the electioneering statute creates some doubt), what sort of precedent has this created? If Concord can position 3 men in front of P.S. 282 directly in front of the gate, what is to stop another church from doing the same thing? Might we have a day when there are multiple church groups in front of our school on the same day, each lobbying for the attention of 1st graders? Might less well intentioned people masquerade as missionaries and stand in front of the school, citing freedom of speech rights to permit their presence? These are hypothetical, straw man arguments, but now also legitimate concerns of mine and other parents.
There is a specific action I would like to see taken in response to all this. I’d like to see a 100 foot “marketing exclusion zone” created around NYC public schools and city playgrounds. Similar to the “no electioneering” rule on Election Day, the rule would prohibit marketers, including religious groups but also including other types of organizations that might want to make an appeal to minors directly, from doing so within 100 feet of a public school or playground. Frankly, I don’t think strangers should be approaching unaccompanied 7 year olds in the first place, but since schools and playgrounds are places where minors, especially younger children, might be unaccompanied often (if young children are roaming the streets unaccompanied that’s another problem altogether), such a rule would seem like a common sense way to protect parental rights to make decisions on their child’s behalf (and, yes, I get there would be constitutional concerns, but the electioneering rule itself is precedent, and in this case we're talking about minors, who are subject to additional protections, as well). I know religious groups might bristle at being labeled a “marketer” but that is very much what the proselytizing in which churches like Concord engage is. If you are trying to convince a child to come to attend your school, you are marketing your school, whether it be Bible school or Karate school.
Finally, I’d ask everyone engaged in this discussion to keep in mind that by virtue of New York City’s density, some of the practicalities of doing things here are by necessity a bit different. An example is how kids are dropped off at school. I grew up in a rural part of the country and like I bet a lot of people on this board I took a bus to school that drove me on to school property. That is not possible at most schools in New York City. Buses pull to the side or front of the school, and kids have to walk on the public sidewalk for a distance to get into the school itself. In most schools in the country, the actions of Concord would simply not be possible because buses take children directly onto school property. In this way, consciously or not, I think Concord was taking advantage of how kids arrive to school here in NYC. Additionally, because of our density, most New Yorkers learn to be tolerant of different types of people, different beliefs, etc. because we all live, work, and travel in such close proximity to each other. Some posters have claimed that the parents at P.S. 282 are showing intolerance of Concord, implicitly labeling us hypocrites. But let me turn that around … to what degree, by acting in the manner they did – by putting 3 men in front of a school gate, without even so much as a “heads up” to the school, who in turn approached unaccompanied children without either their parents’ or school’s permission, did Concord Baptist show tolerance or respect to us?
It's sad how just 2 homosexuals can cause such an uproar because of their intolerance and expect us to tolerate their intolerance. We use to tolerate you but you kept pushing and woke us up. We will not let you destroy our Nation with your perversity. Romney 2012 Thank you God!
Nancy, have you watched the news or picked up a newspaper in the past 10 years?
There is no one more dangerous to our children than perverts wrapped in the pages of the bible…
Your time would be better spent trying to stop the epidemic of little boy rape by the very institution you are so vehemently defending…
If the product that you christians are trying to sell was any good, you wouldn't have to confront people and try to get them to join…
Please keep your medieval superstitions to yourself.
Howar, pretty much EVERYTHING you've wrote here is wrong. The "perverts" you refer to are NOT wrapped in the pages of the Bible but are living and acting COUNTER to it. The "little boy" misconduct you reference is mostly done by the Catholic church. This is because they allow openly gay men into the seminary and priesthood and beause they force people to remain unmarried. ALL of this is counter to Scripture. Your "if it was any good" statement is a complete non sequitir and easy to destrot as well. Do people as a general rule want what is good for them? Do Alcoholics and Addicts rush to join 12 step programs? NO, they usually have to be drug there kicking and screaming. What Christian s have to offer is ABSOLUTELY a great product as all of the charities run by Christians in loving service to God show… http://www.kjv-truth-ministries.org
Well, if you believe you entered this discussion with any credibility, I can assure that it vanished the moment you tried to equate gays with pedophiles. The problem isn't how these perverts are getting into the church,,it's the fact that the church has aided and abetted these individuals, and are therefore condoning their behavior for decades if not centuries.
This not limited to the catholics, it's rampant at levels beyond the normal community amongst all the religions.
Your 12 step analogy is ludicrous. People go to these programs of their own volition when they realize they need it, proselityzing and 'dragging' people there is forbidden by their charters.
This was a despicable attempt to lure children into a program of indoctrination with the promise of other things… Having to stoop to such levels proves that they actually have nothing to offer.
Howard Aubrey: Father I pray that you may reach the heart of Howard so that he can come to know the loving salvation of Christ. Amen.
Coward Aubrey
Still obsessing about generalizing the church in reaction to these molestations I see. I hope you're just as fervent in your convictions towards NAMBLA and especially these public school teachers who have been getting caught as of late having relations with school age kids.
Coward Aubrey
Rest assured that when people in the church are caught in this kind of behavior with kids, they face the anger of the congregation as well as rightful imprisonment that way they can reflect on their transgression and deal with the consequences for however long it takes them to feel heart wrenching remorse, not for themselves, but for who they hurt and angered.
Aubrey is an atheistic programmed person, He spews the same hatred every time he posts. I stopped engaging with hime awhile back. You know the more that ignore him maybe he'll crawl back under a rock.
Babs,
What you call 'ignore', intelligent people realize means 'was unable to debate intelligently with'…
Keep the laughs coming!
Seems like you need to read more carefully instead of suggesting Nancy doesn't read the paper. That wasn't what the parents had a problem with. It's only because it has to do with the Bible.
Coward Crybaby
To ignore means to cease engaging with a bullheaded jackass, especially one who fears putting up a bigger and better picture to showcase what a perverted immature racist looks like.
Barbara Watts Goss
Evolution was cruel to the boy. He/she/it makes up for in the safety of their own home what they lack in a face to face confrontation.
He tried with me last night, pissed me off by calling me Babs and went off….I no longer can see his comment. I don't know if you can see it or not, it's like I said ignore him…he thinks he's intelligent and falls short of it. He turns everything around and he probably is 18 with an intellect of 3
Barbara Watts Goss
I could see his "Babs" post but thats about it. He may have blocked you after feeling overwhelmed but the child of circumstance pretty much falls short of everything. He has nothing better to do in his insignificant life I guess.
He shows zero respect to others, and I hide his comments because I felt him calling me Babs was totally disrepectful….He knows I can't stand him, that's why I told everyone to ignore his rants. You can argue with stupidity! Hope your having a great day!
Sorry meant you can't argue with stupidity!
Barbara Watts Goss
I completely understand. The boy is stuck on stupid. Have a good one.
Babs, generally when people harbor hatred for others it's because they actually hate themselves….. Maybe it's time to up those meds a bit?
Babs Watts Goss ,
Babs, honey…. you seem to be spending all of your time 'pissed off' at things…. have you considered hormone replacement therapy?
There is no need for you to suffer during this difficult 'change of life' period….
Incidentally, the next intelligent comment you make will be the first of your life…
Glad I could help!
Howard, I am now asking you kindly to leave me alone and stop stalking me! Your a sick person. Your comment at time toe the line of you being a pervert. I have reported you comments to yahoo. DO NOT aim anymore comments at me. It is not me needing meds, get off your high horse thinking your the almighty…..Stalking and these comments are against comment guidelines and yahoo has told me (as they see what you have been writing) will be looking into the matter. STOP NOW!!!!! If you think you're funny your not. I will take whatever steps to stop your harassment of me and others.
Coward Crybaby
A real man would leave Barbara alone. You have nothing to prove because you have no credibility when you resort to childish antics. Grow the hell up and get a life. I hope you're as good at wiping your ass as you are at being a condescending moonbat.
Thanks Joel, I appreciate your support! Don't think I deserved his comments but I will leave it to yahoo and they are suppose to be getting back to me tomorrow. The moderator went thru several of his comments even to others and agree with me that what he is doing is violating their rules. I have been stalked in the past by someone and the turn of events were horrifying and I am sorry if this guy scars me but I have had to learn to be ultra sensative. Maybe if he would go through some things others have gone through in their life his comments wouldn't maybe he would be kinder in what he says. I appreciate your support….thanks so much.
Barbara Watts Goss
Your welcome. outguess you could say that he's done similar with me. You should go to his Facebook and block or report him. He takes nothing serious and feels he can have fun with individuals who's opinions greatly differs from his and then there's the usual taunts that he feels justified in meting out for his sick personal pleasure. He mentioned in a post to someone that he's a clinical psychologist or something like that but he's nothing more than a pervert, sex deviant, racist and religious bigot. People like that enjoy talking stupid like that from the confines of heir bedroom but I guarantee you that he would cry like a baby begging for mercy if his if he were ever to be caught in that situation. As far as I'm concerned, he's gets a high off of his own biological product.
Babs, if you consider responding to your comments in a public forum to be 'stalking', you really DO need to seek some professional help.
Yahoo has absolutely nothing to do with facebook discussions…
You are a raving maniac, I feel sorry for you and those around you…
Carry on….
Joel Rivera , the irony of a shemale like yourself, who drove his own wife away with domestic abuse trying to discuss 'propriety' is rich!
Keep the laughs coming, tubby!
Coward Crybaby
LMAO. It's just sad that an allegedly intelligent person like yourself fails in life to strive to be more than you can be rather than living day by day as an obnoxiously redundant POS as evidenced by your daily dose of meaningless blather. How sad for you if this is how you not only demean yourself, but waste your life in a fruitless effort to spew hate like the self righteous and intolerant bigot that you are.
Joel, he is blocked and have talked with a Yahoo rep this morning. I also reported to FB that he is using harassement, abusive language etc when I blocked him. I also have a friend who is a police officer that has gone thru what he is doing and he is able to go thru to his FB account to find out if it is really that person or a fake FB account set up. He did say that what he was writing and after telling him to stop that there are laws against what he is doing. He told Stop means that Stop and he didn't, obviously. Since I have blocked him I won't see anymore of his comments. What is concerning is he thinks it is ok to go of and start looking at people's FB pages. Yahoo told me we don't have to us our FB acct anymore because of the same reason I was reporting. It is creepy what he does and by the looks of the comment he made to you I would have to guess he checked yours out to. I had my setting set to really private so he would really see much. I can assume at this point that he feels the need to put others down because he has a very low self esteem of himself. Hopefully some of the steps I have taken will stop what he's doing. Sorry he is taking aim at you. Hope you have a great day!
Barbara Watts Goss
This he/she/it seems to enjoy going after everyone that he/she/it has a difference of opinion with. They need to get a life. But Im glad your friend in checking this person out. I dont think this person is who they claim to be and they're certainly not playing with a full deck. I made my account more private just to be safe. Enjoy your weekend.
Howard, how dare you say something like that to Nancy above, it was the Catholic church who did that to boys, if abuse was done by another church, it was to girls most of the time. And even unchurched people do these things to kids. If anything, gay men became priest to hide their sin!
Hi Nancy,
See my long reply to Joe Gonzalez further down in this discussion. I am a PS282 parent and observed the Concord missionaries first hand. I know Ernestine. She is not gay. She is married (to a man) and has children at PS282. She is also a Christian who attends church regularly.
I too am a straight Christian. And I too object to the way in which Concord Baptist did their missionary work in front of our school. I do not know why Pastor Johnson speculated that the parents speaking out about this are gay and/or associated with the gay and lesbian movement. While it's noteworthy that the church chose to drive 750 miles to proselytize in a well-known gay friendly neighborhood, that is not our primary cause for objection.
Our primary issue is strange men approaching very young children, some as young as 4 and 5, on their way to school. I respect that Concord may have been with their rights given the sidewalk is public property. And I respect too that Concord is acting out of their love of Christ. But blocking a school gate (and that is what they were doing – I was there) in order to approach unaccompanied young children is going about things the wrong way, regardless of the legality.
Keep in mind that Concord did not speak with anyone at the school prior to their arrival. Nor did they choose to approach parents about the VBS invitation, though obviously it would be the parents who would need to make a decision about their children's attendance at VBS. Instead Concord chose to approach and make their appeal directly to unaccompanied young children. Can this method of missionary work really be defended? If this were your 1st grader being approached on her way to school, how would you react? How might you feel if this were a church from a religion different than your own? Would you be concerned about the precedent this creates, and the risk of people with bad intents masquerading as missionaries in order to gain close access to unaccompanied students as they arrive at school? Would you worry about a day in which multiple churches might be appealing to students concurrently?
Howard, they offer salvation through the blood of Christ who died for their sins. No man, No government, No other religion offers this. We cannot earn it or buy it, as it is free, given to each one of us if we accept it. We cannot know about it if we do not hear the good news. What difference if how they get to VBS leads to eternal life with God in Heaven.
the sad part is that our nation was once the largest provider of missionaries to the world…..NOW HOWEVER MORE THAN 78% OF OUR NATION IS UNCHURCHED….AND "OTHER NATIONS" ARE SENDING MISSIONARIES TO US………….WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THIS NATION THAT WAS "FOUNDED" ON THE CHRISTIAN FAITH…….NOT ANY OTHER.. BUT CHRISTIAN……YET THE EMBRACING OF FILTH AND PERVERSION…. HAS US IN THIS STATE WE ARE IN TODAY…….
So 75% of the nation is Christian, but 78% of the nation is unchurched? I think that says more about today's Christians than it does about the nation.
since i have no beef with you personally i will say i agree…..it is sad that professing Christians sit back, twiddle their thumbs while those who do act are belittled for their faith, worse that people allow situations like dearborn michigan a couple of weeks back where Muslims stoned Christians, and this in the USA.. SAD THAT OUR CITIZENS SIT BACK AND WATCH WHILE SHARIA LAW IS BEING IMPLEMENTED IN OUR NATION WHILE THEIR HEADS ARE BURIED IN THE SAND, SAD THAT ONE DAY THEY WILL WAKE UP.. BUT IT WILL BE TOO LATE, SAD THAT
MY CHILD OR CANNOT SAY THE NAME OF JESUS WITHOUT PENALTY IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, YET ISLAM IS BEING TAUGHT IN THOSE SAME SCHOOLS AND CHILDREN ARE BEING INSTRUCTED TO PRAY TO MOHAMMED,………..SAD WHEN PEOPLE CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL………SAD WHEN PEOPLE MAKE EXCUSES FOR THEMSELVES WHEN THEY WANT THINGS SUGAR COATED………….SAD THAT CHRISTIANS HAVE MIXED EVERYTHING INTO THEIR EVERYDAY THOUGHT..AND HAVE PERVERTED THE VERY THING THEY BELIEVE..IN THAT RESPECT, I MEAN ASTROLOGY, FORTUNE TELLERS, MEDIUMS……AND YES EVEN SOME TELE-EVANGELISTS GIVE THE GOSPEL A BLACK EYE………OUR NATION EMBRACES FEAR LIKE IT WAS A LONG LOST LOVED ONE…FEAR IS USED TO CONTROL OUR PEOPLE IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE….IT IS NO WONDER THAT WE EAT SLEEP AND BREATHE ANTIPSYCHOTICS..JUST TO GET BY EVERY DAY…………….JUST SAD
Charles Why did the Christians feel the need to go to the Arab festival and hold up signs? Isn't that provocation? Not that I am endorsing the stoning, that was a criminal, unnecessary response. But why the need for the signs? Let them have their festival! Notice that there were no other reports of incidents except for where the signs were held up? If they just let them be, there would have been no incident. How would Christians like it if people came to picket them outside their Sunday masses? Would they not claim it to be part of the "war against Christianity"? Why is it any different when Christians picket other religion's events? I am a non-Christian, and I have had Christians protest outside my religion's events as well. Why? If you truly believe in religious freedom for all religions, leave the other religious gatherings alone!
My statement above applies to people of all religions, not just Christians. Many people claim to be of a certain faith, then do nothing to practice that faith. Protesting other religions is not practicing your faith. Stoning people who protest your religion is not practicing your faith. Claiming that Sharia Law is being implemented in the US when there is zero evidence of that anywhere is not practicing your faith. And I have not heard of a single school teaching Islam or instructing kids to pray to Mohammed (Allah is the god, by the way, not Mohammed), so spreading lies is not practicing your faith either. Maybe if you laid off the antipsychotics, you might have a clearer picture of reality.
Joe – I will just say this. As this has become such a divided nation, and it is being promoted to be and I believe it starts with our government, that the individual citizens are become immeshed with the attitude that putting others religions down is all part of keeping the division going. I am a Christian and I wouldn't condone anyone causing a religious uproar at someone else's religious event whether I agree or disagree. This is what the government wants to happen. There is a lot more going on around the US that we aren't being told and you would be amazed by what the media choses to report or not report.
Barbara – I agree with you 100%. Thank you.
I wish more people would be able to get past their partisan holdings and see this for what it is. Our government is leading by example, and the example they are setting is beyond poor. They are behaving like preschoolers arguing on a playground. It is truly shameful, and moreso that Americans are following their example instead of demanding better.
Joe Gonzalez ……….WELL JOE… as far anti psychotics………..i do not take nor need…any…as far as people having the right to believe what they want.. and yes they have that right.. and yes i am well aware of whom Muslims pray to….i have lived among them earlier in life enough to know that it is not a so called peaceful religion and that any "unbeliever" is lower than a dog..i have not asked your faith.. but you seem ready enough to defend yours via apologetic s…but do not expect Christians to sit back as blind sheep …while you do so………i certainly will not…
Is that relevant to this story Joe?
Obviously, you haven't been reading the news.
What news are you referring to because their has been a heck of a lot of things in the news? If your asking Chris, I think he is referring this story to another and why they are bringing that story in when it is a separate issue.
Charles Strahan -I lived in Novi, MI up to 5 years ago…if someone hasn't lived there they don't begin to understand what goes on there and I alway get bothered by those who try to state everything as a fact especially when they haven't experienced it. I worked several years in retail until we moved. The Muslims are the hardest to deal with, they will purposely damaged goods to get a better price, they get irate at the checkout….stories could go on. I just learned to have to deal with it. They don't try to fit in, it is the exact opposite. We visit MI yearly because of having family there and you learn to avoid places where they frequent. That is unfortunate.
Barbara…i have spent 30 years as a private investigator… if i do not know it to be true i would not say. it..i am also a ministers my formal education is theology…i will call it as it is regardless christian or Muslim…. i lived for approx. a year with and around Muslims….they take and use , abuse and laugh when it is all over.. i have christian friends in Pakistan .. who cannot buy or sell , cannot live where they desire ..because they call on the name of Jesus…history records extremes by all religions… but only one does not seek to change that one is the greatest threat to western civilization as a whole and people in Europe are beginning to awake to this…but here in the US we have been blindsided by the label that they area peaceful religion..".hogwash"….we forget too easily the foundational argument for 9/11 happening….do i hate these people not at all.. i do desire that if i cannot pray in a public school .. then they cannot.. if i cannot call the name of Jesus then they should not be able to call on their Mohammed….. then the argument is we all serve the same god…..i do not believe so…..we in Christianity had best stop arguing over what we believe….and start practicing what we do believe if not…"persecution of christians" in these united states is not just a possibility…………..but more a probability……
Charles – I was agreeing with your sir, reread my comment, please don't come down on someone who didn't disagree with what you said. My comment was written aiming it at Joe. Guess I should have put that I agreed with you. My apologies
i understood that you were agreeing…just relating things as i see them…i knew you were in agreement…sorry if i sounded any other way..i did not mean what i said towards you.
We had that kind of sermon yesterday at church, as well as a patriotic concert in the evening. I and my husband sang and my son performed in the orchestra. It brings tears to my eyes to know that Christianity has been demonized. My oldest is in the Air Force and his hardest part is with the current Commander in Chief since he doesn't agree with everything going on but he has certain obligations but continues to be a testimony for those around him. God bless you!
i understand his thoughts duty to God and country….yet i am in no way a FAN OF THE CURRENT REGIME…sorry about the caps…..the majority of the push for the islamization of this nation has come about.. during his watch either overtly..or covertly hoping no one would notice….the same with our borders, these should have been capped tight years ago….sad to say the very thing that brings all the denominations into unity..maybe persecution.. but i see and feel the hand of God moving on his children to be prepared
Joe Gonzalez said "Sharia Law is being implemented in the US when there is zero evidence of that anywhere". A very quick Google search would show that you are incorrect. For example, in Florida in 2011, "A Florida appeals court has just cleared the way for lawsuit over a monetary dispute at a mosque to be determined by Islamic Sharia law — in a U.S. court, no less. It's not the first time." (source: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-five/transcript/judge-rules-american-courts-can-use-sharia-law/) Note: "it's not the first time", meaning more evidence can most likely be found outside my minute and a half search.
As for "And I have not heard of a single school teaching Islam or instructing kids to pray to Mohammed (Allah is the god, by the way, not Mohammed), so spreading lies is not practicing your faith either", your failure to hear of it does not mean it doesn't exist, so why are you insulting someone else for your lack of information? California's grade 7 social studies standard, for example, has "Students analyze the geographic, political, economic, *religious*, and social structures of the civilizations of Islam in the Middle Ages.", including "Trace the origins of Islam and the life and teachings of Muhammad, including Islamic teachings on the connection with Judaism and Christianity". (source: http://web.archive.org/web/20020124220246/http://www.cde.ca.gov/standards/history/grade7.html ) Apparent is the double standard of supposed separation of church and state only being applied when it puts Christianity in a positive light. And you wonder why some feel the need to counter what public school fails to teach, or worse misdirects?
Joe Gonzalez said "Sharia Law is being implemented in the US when there is zero evidence of that anywhere". A very quick Google search would show that you are incorrect. For example, in Florida in 2011, "A Florida appeals court has just cleared the way for lawsuit over a monetary dispute at a mosque to be determined by Islamic Sharia law — in a U.S. court, no less. It's not the first time." (source: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-five/transcript/judge-rules-american-courts-can-use-sharia-law/) Note: "it's not the first time", meaning more evidence can most likely be found outside my minute and a half search.
As for "And I have not heard of a single school teaching Islam or instructing kids to pray to Mohammed (Allah is the god, by the way, not Mohammed), so spreading lies is not practicing your faith either", your failure to hear of it does not mean it doesn't exist, so why are you insulting someone else for your lack of information? California's grade 7 social studies standard, for example, has "Students analyze the geographic, political, economic, *religious*, and social structures of the civilizations of Islam in the Middle Ages.", including "Trace the origins of Islam and the life and teachings of Muhammad, including Islamic teachings on the connection with Judaism and Christianity". (source: http://web.archive.org/web/20020124220246/http://www.cde.ca.gov/standards/history/grade7.html ) Apparent is the double standard of supposed separation of church and state only being applied when it puts Christianity in a positive light. And you wonder why some feel the need to counter what public school fails to teach, or worse misdirects?
Charles Strahan In Michigen when you call a gov, office, they tell you to press1 for English, 2 for Spanish and 3 for Arabic. Michigan has the highest population of Muslims in the U.S.A. I'm just saying.
Joe Gonzalez Christians can't have festivals in muslem nations. We Christians are killed for it!
i am aware….i follow this subject well..not to mention i have friends pastors and missionaries in places like Pakistan, Kenya etc….that detail to me the atrocities against Christians…a muslim is not allowed to lie excepting when it allows deception to an unbeliever wherein they might be defeated
re: taqiyyah
Taqiyya (alternate spellings taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah), meaning religious dissimulation,[1] This means a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are under those risks.[2]
This practice emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion.[3]Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.[1]
The majority Sunni Muslims rarely found it necessary to hide their beliefs. However, there are examples of practicing Taqiyya among Sunnis where it was necessary.[4] In the Sunni view, denying your faith under duress is "only at most permitted and not under all circumstances obligatory".[5]
Joe Gonzalez Until we took on a third job to afford to send our son to private school, his public school simulated a gay wedding and the next year, his teacher taught about the Muslim religion (though the school already banned Bibles). Halloween is based from a religion, and we're against it, but the school celebrated it, with strict limitations on saying Merry Christmas or any use of Nativity scenes. Christians put up with more than you think. By saying "mass" you are obviously generalizing what you consider to be Christian. The church I attend HAS had pro-abortion protestors in front of it. So your point is moot.
"I" say, that the majority of today's society isn't happy unless they are complaining about something or suing someone!
"I" say, that the majority of today's society isn't happy unless they are complaining about something or suing someone!
There is nothing at church to fear except the fear of God!
There is nothing at church to fear except the fear of God!
Yet another group of victims, looking for a perpetrator. Guess they found it. Easy solution, don't go to their VBS.
Would you be saying the same if a group of three Muslims stood, as the one (non-gay) parent stated in the story, so that kids could not pass without getting a flyer for a Muslim Quran-based camp? Somehow I sense that there would be tons of outrage from the Christian community in that event, but if the Christians do it, its "just throw it out or don't go". Poor double standard.
Wow, why bother asking me the question. You've already made your judgement! Do I get to answer? Or have you made up your mind?
I made no judgement about you. I said what I sensed the overall reaction would be, as evidenced by the few stories that have come up in the news about it actually happening. My apologies for pre-empting your personal response, however.
Joe Gonzalez – I would love to reply….as a Christian my children come home with all kinds of propaganda, I also teach and more is taught in the school then you realize. I don't call the school my kids attend if they get something I don't like. In fact my kids are now old enough to realize what are belies are and just come home and we get rid of it ot raise some stink. My kids have gay friends, friends from all races and they treat them with respect and love even though we might not agree with everything they believe. Your comment sent an immediate impression. As I said above also, they don't have to go if they don't agree with what the church teaches the people raising the problem here is not necessary.
Riley Secrist – you have a right to your opinion, I am sorry you felt like it didn't matter….it does, you made a very valid point.
Geez, I apologized to the guy for being rude already. Would you like to stick bamboo shoots under my fingernails as well?
My kid has been in public school for 4 years. Not once have I seen a single piece of propaganda of any sort come home with him – and my wife and I read every single piece of paper. We know his curriculum, and we talk every day about what he is learning. There have been a couple of things I have raised my eyebrows about, and one prompted us to a discussion with the teacher. Nothing earth shattering however. Maybe you are talking about older kids, I'm not sure. Maybe our schools are an exception. Couldn't tell you. Seems to me the fear is being overhyped, and too many otherwise rational adults are being caught up by it. However, again I have now read four different sources on this story, and a number of heterosexual parents complained that they were uncomfortable with the tactics of the people handing out the fliers. Several have now reported, without dispute from the church, that the three guys were standing directly in front of the gates to the school and were no simply holding out fliers for kids to take or not take, but were almost to the point of forcing kids to take one. IF that is the case, then that is inappropriate, I don't care what it is you are hawking, religious or not. Being that this was a religious event being promoted, without the knowledge of the principal until too late, to a very diverse community, I would say the tactics are highly questionable.
I doubt seriously that kids were forced to take one. In any case, no need to get out of our underwear over someone passing out literature. I had a Muslim try to convert me once. Did I storm out of the guard shack and go up to the Afghan Army Colonel's house and demand an apology? That's just some humour. Seriously, if we protect our kids instead of teaching them how to think critically, we might as well not have kids.
How about this Riley. We teach our kids to think critically, but we protect them until they are actually able to do so. Of course ask your local scientist at what age that actually happens, I'm sure there are a ton of opinions. I can say with fair certainty, however, that kindergarten is a bit too soon.
I don't believe they were actually forced to take one. I am getting the impression from the several stories I read that those handing them out were a bit overzealous in their encouragement. To a kindergartener, that could be intimidating. And again, I said that would be inappropriate regardless of the subject matter of the flyers.
Riley Secrist By the way, that was kinda funny.
It's true, too. I was having dinner with some of the guards during Ramadan. Guy tried to convert me. He was a cool dude, just had no desire to give up alcohol lol.
LOL! Yeah the alcohol thing would be a deal breaker for me too.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Just had this discussion at work today…how do you convince people to give up alcohol AND pork? Maybe one or the other, but both seems awfully cruel.
Joe Gonzalez Ummm have you seen the things the Christian community is told they have to put up with?
Until we took on a third job to afford to send our son to private school, his public school simulated a gay wedding and the next year, his teacher taught about the Muslim religion (though the school already banned Bibles). Halloween is based from a religion, and we're against it, but the school celebrated it, with strict limitations on saying Merry Christmas or any use of Nativity scenes. Christians put up with more than you think.
Yet another group of victims, looking for a perpetrator. Guess they found it. Easy solution, don't go to their VBS.
So don't go if you don't want to. People pass out hand bills for Booze Cruise in Hawaii, strips shows in Vegas.Dopers pass out stuff about legalizing pot all the time. You don't want to go don't go. You don't want to take the hand bill don't take it you can always throw it away.
They hand these things out to young children?
Did you catch the part where they blocked the entire sidewalk?
Since the same people who are saying that they 'blocked the sidewalk' (which is not what was actually said!) are the ones saying they were offended bc they were white, I am not taking that at face value. What would the purpose be? They are not trying to block entrance–they are inviting children to learn about the love of God and be presented with the gospel!
Since the same people who are saying that they 'blocked the sidewalk' (which is not what was actually said!) are the ones saying they were offended bc they were white, I am not taking that at face value. What would the purpose be? They are not trying to block entrance–they are inviting children to learn about the love of God and be presented with the gospel!
No I missed the part about blocking the whole sidewalk. So people were stuck there for hours unable to pass this blockage? Wow! Thats not good. "They hand these things out to young children" Well thats fair they pass out condoms in the school to young children.
They stood blocking the gates, pictured here:
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120627/park-slope/baptist-missionaries-target-park-slope-students-at-school-parents-say/slideshow/popup/200174
Also, a quote from ANOTHER version of the story:
"The men allegedly stood at the public school’s front gate on Tuesday to hand out the invites during morning drop-off, a busy time during which children and parents flow into and out of the building. While church members claim that no children were forced to take the fliers, DNAInfo.com reports that a number of parents were uncomfortable with their children, ranging from grades first through fifth, being urged to do so."
Highlight: A NUMBER of parents. Not just the black ones, not just the gay ones.
Coward Aubrey
How do you know these kids were being blocked? Were there cameras there to document this? Otherwise you weren't there, and you can't be sure if thats what happened. For now its just heresay.
Howard Aubrey Wow, the entire sidewalk?? You mean like an occupy movement? Were you upset by all of those?
That's what the Gay athiest said. If course of you believe lying is ok to move your adjenda you can claim anything.
That's what the Gay athiest said. If course of you believe lying is ok to move your adjenda you can claim anything.
See my long reply to Joe Gonzalez further in this discussion. I am a PS 282 parent. I *was* there and I *did* see what happened first hand.
The 3 men from Concord were positioned on the sidewalk in front of the school gate such as to make themselves unavoidable. There were positioned in such a way that there was no practical way for the children (or voters – the school was an open polling place at the time) to avoid them. This is why the parent-teacher coordinator, who stands to the right of the gate each day to welcome the kids, spoke to the 3 men to request that Concord re-consider their approach. Given the gate is just 15 ft wide, and both children and voters were arriving at that time, the activity of the 3 men in approaching children and handing out flyers was creating a bottle neck as people tried to get into the school.
See my long reply to Joe Gonzalez further in this discussion. I am a PS 282 parent. I *was* there and I *did* see what happened first hand.
The 3 men from Concord were positioned on the sidewalk in front of the school gate such as to make themselves unavoidable. There were positioned in such a way that there was no practical way for the children (or voters – the school was an open polling place at the time) to avoid them. This is why the parent-teacher coordinator, who stands to the right of the gate each day to welcome the kids, spoke to the 3 men to request that Concord re-consider their approach. Given the gate is just 15 ft wide, and both children and voters were arriving at that time, the activity of the 3 men in approaching children and handing out flyers was creating a bottle neck as people tried to get into the school.
Robert Underwood So they wanted to make sure everyone received a flyer. Good. Hope everyone did.
Robert Underwood So they wanted to make sure everyone received a flyer. Good. Hope everyone did.
Hi Denise,
I hope you can take a moment and read the long reply I posted last night to the Joe Gonzalez "pick a fight" post below. I am a PS282 parent who saw what happened first hand. It shouldn't matter, but if people care, I'm straight, white, and Christian.
I respect Concord, its rights to free speech, and its love of Christ. One quarter of my family is from Greenville, not far from Pickens, so I feel a degree of affinity for the people who visited our neighborhood. My primary objection to Concord is not one of message but one of method. Legality aside (which is in some question as the school was an active polling place at the time), I would ask you and others on this board if you think the approach of Concord was appropriate. Do you have children? Regardless of message, would you be ok with a man – a stranger to your child – approaching your 6 year old daughter on her way to school? Do you really not seen how this might be viewed by parents as intimidating and unwelcome?
In my view, as a parent at the school who saw what happened first hand, I think race had no bearing on what transpired in the moment and I think it regrettable that race has permeated so much of the subsequent discussion. And while it's noteworthy that a church opposed to gay marriage drove 750 miles to proselytize in a gay friendly neighborhood, that isn't the core issue of parents such as myself either.
Our primary issue is that the church, and specifically the 3 men in question, chose to make its appeal directly to our children, including many very young children, many of whom were unaccompanied at the time. I doubt many parents out there would be ok with strange men approaching their children when they are not there. Had the church earnestly been interested in engaging with the school community, including the parents, they could have come to the parents, PTA, and/or school administration to make the VBS offer and discuss how we might present the offer to our children. It is notable that the Pastor of 6th Avenue Baptist, which as many have noted is kitty corner to the school, did not himself choose to walk across the street and talk to anyone at the school prior to this action. Nor did Pastor Johnson choose to join the folks from Concord in their proselytizing on June 26. Why? If Pastor Johnson was as interested in loving his neighbors as he says he is, perhaps he could have chosen to have an adult conversation with the parents, teachers, and administration before appealing directly to our children by sending men from an affiliated church from South Carolina to block our children's entrance to school.
So Christians are gay hating racist who shove the word of God down peoples throats? But the gay and lesbian league is full of love and tolerance? What's the big deal if it were white people handing out fliers to black kids? And that's not any bit racist? Hypocrites.
Seems like the true racists are those that take issues with whites handing out fliers because they are whites. And they want to blames whites for setting back race relations? What hypocrites of the highest order.
Ha-ha. Ya, if it were racist, they WOULDN'T want them to attend.
Sounds like alot of self-rightious grandstanding by liberal voters. I'll bet they care more about their so-called ideals than about the DOJ and POTUS covering up the murders of 2 of our law enforcement officers. I'm 74 yrs old and summer bible schools have been around a heck of alot longer than I have. People who bring up their children in a Christian home are the ones whose children attend these schools. The churches do not expect atheist and pagan children to attend. If I didn't have my Bible I could go to the library and read it. Does that mean that the library is in cahoots with the church? Everything today is so far out of whack as to be laughable – if it weren't sad. If you don't believe in and agree with the leftists, atheists, etc. you've got a bullseye on your back. I'm proud to say I'm a Catholic and I vote!
Joan, I don't always agree with the Catholic church, but I sure do stand behind you of what you just said.I am Missouri Synod Lutheran, we are close as in standing up for our beliefs!
"She accused them of practicing a form of Christianity that’s “exclusive” and “discriminatory.” ".
Yeah, they "exclude" and "discriminate" against evil in all it's forms, as should all followers of Christ. Christians are being attacked for sticking to our beliefs more and more each day as the majority of the US is accepting perversion as normal and the hate that comes from the homosexuals towards Christians becomes more and more bold and public.
As usual, the detractors want to make this a gay issue when it's really about bigotry against a church handing out fliers to anyone that would be open to consider trying out VBS. It's also ridiculous hat these individuals would play the usual racecard just because those handing out fliers are white. What if they were black or hispanic? Would they still be getting the same treatment? I'm inclined to say yes because as long as a person is Christian regardless of race, they will continue to be attacked by these immoralists.
if you dont like it, dont go! what happened to letting folks who want to go go, and those who dont want to go not go?
What happened to letting kids come and go freely from a public school without shoving propaganda in their faces? Why not pass out the fliers to the parents since THEY will be the ones making the choices? Have you seen the pictures of the gates that they were standing in front of? Very small entryway space, easily blocked and targeted.
@ joe: kids need to learn to think for themselves. if they dont want the flier they need to say no thanks. besides how many parents walk to the front of the school to pick up their kids? no one complained abt being cornered and forced to take a flyer; just that they were being given out.
Sorry, Joe, but if the kids are coming and going from a public school, they're getting a heavy dose of PC propaganda anyway. And another thing – how do you equate an invitation listing planned activities "propaganda"?
@Wanda – I am a parent at PS282 and saw what happened first hand. See my long reply above to Joe.
I agree "kids need to learn to think for themselves" but in the case of what happened on June 26th we're talking about children as young as 4 in pre-K being approached. I'm all for critical thinking skills, but might you not as well be a little uncomfortable if you knew strange men were approaching your 4 or 5 year old as they made their way to school from the school bus?
The accusations of exclusivity and racism are completely illogical. If a gay or black person were denied the ability to respectfully visit a worship service there, then those terms might apply. But these people were inviting children and their parents to come. That is the opposite of being exclusive! And the fact that these invitations were offered to everyone regardless of race is proof against racism. Using those terms in this situation is nothing more than intimidation with lies.
How many local parents were "outraged" One? and a queer one at that! Hang in their Baptists. It's time to tell our story now and reverse the path of perversion we are on.
George,
I am a PS282 parent. I saw first hand what happened. See my reply to Joe's post above.
I don't think the sexual orientation of the parents objecting matters a hill of beans, but if it matters to you, Ernestine is straight. I also objected to what happened, and I am straight as well. Other parents are also upset – it is not just one person. The article above speculates that the objecting parents are gay and/or connected to gay and lesbian causes. This is not the case — so far as I know, the parents I've spoken to who are concerned about what happened are all straight. And again, it shouldn't matter. Though it's noteworthy that an anti-gay marriage church drove 750 miles to proselytize in a well-known gay friendly neighborhood, the core issue is not about gay or straight.
The core issues to the parents, including me, is strange men approaching unaccompanied children. I think many parents can understand why, regardless of intent, it is unsettling to know that strange adults are approaching your child on their way to school. If one takes a step back, I think most people can understand how 3 strange men standing in front of a school gate could be intimidating to a 7 year old child. I respect Concord and their love of Christ. They may have been within their rights (or not given it was election day – see post above), but they went about this in the wrong way. And what's next? Multiple churches in front of our school in the morning, each lobbying for our kids' attention? Can you understand even a bit why parents might object to this approach and precedent?
There was a time when parents "shopped" churches to see when they were offering VBS so their children could be assured of solid story time, great snacks and imaginative social time. And when parents of older children appreciated the opportunity for their children to travel to cities they were unfamiliar with in order to learn about new people and situations. While this is all part of a Christian tradition, it also offers a glimpse of America perhaps some are not familiar with. I doubt if a week in this rich environment–even with white teens from South Carolina–a child raised in Brooklyn will get any more than a week of cross cultural and affectionate messages aimed at teaching the historically accurate glimpses of biblical truths (no matter what their cultural/religious tradition). Perhaps the parents who were/are suspicious could have just joined in this community effort to give children something to do and not been so afraid that someone was out to attack them or their lifestyle. Hopefully the youth from South Carolina don't get the wrong impression about the majority of New Yorkers either.
joe: the picture you referred to (above) was of the church, not the school!!!
*sigh* do you people put any work into what you read? One I referred to was a seven picture slideshow that started with the church and moved on to the school with the front gate. Another post I referred to showed a full shot of the school entrance.
Here it is again so you don't have to go searching:
Front shot of school:
http://volcanicensemble.blogspot.com/2009/11/282good-2be-4gotten.html
Slideshow: (look PAST the first picture, that is the church!)
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120627/park-slope/baptist-missionaries-target-park-slope-students-at-school-parents-say/slideshow/popup/200174
@ joe: *sigh* do you people ever get tired of arguing for argument's sake? the kids had plenty of room to get out w/o being accosted by anyone! give me a break! it is people like u who are the reason we are in such a crappy place as a nation. you feel entitled. ex: the whole town is happy saying a prayer at the beginning of a town meeting. two ppl who have been to only one meeting object b/c they say the prayer is
discriminatory. they don't believe any different than the rest of the townspeople, but they protested just for the sake of protesting. so the whole town had to move their TOWN meeting to another town. you might remember the case; it happened in the ne a few months ago. (i didn't mention that the two complainers were lesbians b/c i really didn't think it was relevant). that is the problem with america now. even tho folks don't really have a beef with another person's life, they are going to complain abt it just to stop that person from exercising his rights. now we have had ALL of our rights and freedoms taken away just to appease a few peoples' wants. you are the same way. you don't have kids in this school, and don't really have a problem with handing out fliers for say a block party aimed at elementary school kids, but since it is a CHURCH sponsored rvent, you get rabid! it's not that you are a member of a church which believes any different than this one, or that you may be a member of the church of satan: you don't want ANY church to try and help kids have a fun-filled week. it's the wishes of a few over-ruling the wishes of the many. i notice you had no comment for mine regarding the parents who don't walk up to the school to pick up their children!
Wanda, I wasn't arguing, I was responding to your post, which incorrectly stated that i only gave you a pic of the church. I reposted it for your convenience as well. That gateway could easily be blocked by three grown adults who would have the opportunity to have every kid come within inches of them as they arrived/left. There are right ways to do things. The pastor himself admitted he did not check with the principal until they were about to leave. Have some respect and get the principal's permission first. Second, approach the parents instead of the kids and let them make the choice. Two simple decisions that would have made this more tolerable. Yes, if I were a parent there, I would be very unhappy with how this went down. But to be quite honest with you, I would protest even if it were my own church (Unitarian Universalist) doing it. It's not that I don't want any church helping kids have a fun filled week. In fact, our Baptist neighbor across the street invited my son to a kid's night event at their church – it was secular in nature, any messages they preached about fair play and proper behavior were generic and meaningful, and my son had a great time with his friend. This, however, was not a secular camp. It was a religious camp targeted at a certain portion of the population. There are plenty of ways to make the parents and kids aware of this type of camp without shoving it in every kid's face regardless of their religious background. I know, I have advertised similar events for my church myself and never once had the urge to approach a public school. And all events were very well attended.
Now listen up Folks! In the END DAYS, people will turn away from God and follow evil teachings of the anti Christ. What is right in God's law will be wrong in men's eyes and people will want to hear from church pastors and leaders what they want to hear and that is that there is no judgement for living a life of their choice! Not of God's but of theirs! REMEMBER, just look up to the heavens, as our Redeemer draws near! Homosexuality, fornication, and hating are just of a few sins GOD HATES! Man has and will accept them but GOD will never accept them! NEVER!
amen
Ive been to this church I think, If its the one I'm thinking of its in the heart of a very jewish neighborhood. And overall it is a bad practice for people to pass out flyers to children without their parents around. We have a policy with the ministry that I work with to not hand out literature to children not because we think its wrong but to avoid liability like this. Fact is the world hates this, and a lot of people see handing out free religious literature as prostheletizing.
It is so funny, that these same people who don't want the church to medal in in their unchristian lifestyle, still use money with the words "In God we trust". If in fact that is the case, the Church has a manual that has been handed down for generations called the Bible. In it is the responsibilities that goes along with that view and homosexuals and such were put out side the city to live in their own communities, that means they were not allowed to associate with the cities families and children. If you don't want to follow the rules of an organization – then don't join it, but to join and then try to change the values that have been there to suit your lifestyle if fornication of that organization and their values are compromised and they really are not "worth the salt they believe in". We, as Christians, have adopted and changed our lives according to those "rules" to become better people, citizens, and our moral values have been tested long enough. You folks that think that you can live the life of the "world" and be a christian are deluded into seeing what belonging to a church means. You go to church to learn to be better people according to a moral code set out in the Scriptures (Bible). That code doesn't happen to include anything that you would change your life for – why join then? The Bible said that a man and woman were to make the beginning of a family, and that is the truest form of family. God bless you and may you see that other organizations have their codes to. You can't join the Boy Scouts if your a girl, you can't swim in the world games if you don't exercise, you wouldn't qualify. The same in the church. You begin with a moral compass according to the teaching of the Bible and if you don't have that, then join another organization please.
Carol, that very same bible calls for the stoning to death of any woman that isn't a virgin on her wedding night. he same punishment is prescribed for any man that ever shaves or cuts the hair around his temples and any person that does any work on the sabbath..
So, you support these biblical teachings as well, right?
Yes, in the day that was justified, and do you know that still happens in many religions today. Why don't you read the Bible from cover to cover and mark the words of God in red like they are in the New Testament for Jesus words. It was as if God was shouting at the people of that day, what would He be saying today about our compromising ways today? The moral values of the Bible have never been done away at the cross – it was Jesus words – It is finished, as He lived the moral life, so can you! India has the highest rate of woman's death in the world and they are killed because the man is the head and he has all the rights? Would you like to stand up and be counted against this today? You haven't have you, but I have and it won't change as he never got those teaching from the Bible. Fight the battles you can win – starting with your own soul. Yes, I do believe in the Sabbath and I am not a Jew, but Jesus was! He never changed the day of worship it was the Catholic Church in honour of their Pope. Even that teaching in the Bible to call no man Father is a error of the Catholic church! It was also the Catholic church who killed men in honour of the church, not God's honour. Read history and you will see, Martin Luther nailed the 95 Thesis on the Door of Wittenburg and change our understanding that ALL could read the Bible. Even halloween should be a celebration of Luther's changing the church instead of the death celebration.
Carol Ann Nelson
You can explain things to that humanoid, but the fact of the matter is that he's just going to generalize and attack as usual. Its seems to be his bread and butter in life aside from living a meaningless existence.
Joke Rivers,
Providing direct quotes that rebut a persons claims is hardly 'generalizing'….
It's how adults debate and make their case intelligently…..
Science has already proven that 'god' believing conservatives are the least intelligent humans on the planet. There is no need for you to confirm it every single time you comment…
By the way, God bless this Baptist church, as I didn't see anything about moral values explain in the handbill above, so someone should go back to school or get a dictionary to see what was on the invitation. God bless you and may this controversy bring in children who will make a difference in the days ahead.
like i said, joe, if you don't like it, don't go! but i do agree that they should have asked the principal before starting to pass the fliers out.
Why WOULDN'T parents want their kids to learn that they should honor their father and mother, and that it's wrong to lie and steal? These parents should be mad at how television indoctrinates kids, not the Bible, which teaches salvation and goodness.
Jesus said to hate your family to become his disciple, in Luke 14:26.
Jesus says it's okay to own and beat slaves, in Luke 12:47-48
Jesus says to cut off your hand or pluck out your eyes if they offend, in Matt 5:28-32.
Jesus says it's more important to anoint him with precious ointment than to give it to the poor, in Mark 14:4-7.
Jesus says anyone that believes in him can play with venomous snakes or drink poison without harm, in Mark 16:18.
Jesus says anyone who denies his rulership must be killed, in Luke 19:27.
Jesus says anyone who doesn't believe in him must be burned, in John 15
Responses to your little picking and choosing without referencing who is talking or being spoken to, but since you like to mislead people, the verse you really need to be interested in is: Matt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! With regards to your list above: Ref 1: In comparison to their love for Him. Ref 2: this is a prophetic verse, better re-read, along with preceding verses. Ref 3: Cut out of your life what would keep you from the kingdom. Ref4: Judas was pilfering money, so he mentioned the poor, but Mary was annointing Christ with a burial spice. Ref 5: Satan, who is always the "serpent" cannot take the Lord's people from His hand. Ref 6: That was a nobleman quoted in a parable. Ref 7: Every branch that doesn't bare fruit is cut off. Howard, you need the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible, so when you try to mislead people you look foolish since you don't understand it.
Howard, you are SO out of context!
What you are doing–taking a portion of a quote or story and using it to bolster your bias–can be done (and has been done!) with ANY person's written or spoken words! Innocent people have been sent to prison using the exact tactic you are employing. It is sad, and truly shameful, that you need to stoop so low to attempt to "prove" your point. Makes me wonder if you have ANYTHING useful or original to say?!?
After reading several of you other posts, what one gets a sense of is a very sad existance; where only thru name-calling and hate-mongering are you able to satisfy a positive sense of self. Howard, that is what a bully does, and you will never feel better about yourself by being a bully toward others.
Yes, Char. Howard is obviously just using a search engine to find random quotes someone thought were controversial or contradictory. He clearly didn't read the quotes and surrounding scripture for himself, or he would have never listed these verses.
Yes, Char. Howard is obviously just using a search engine to find random quotes someone thought were controversial or contradictory. He clearly didn't read the quotes and surrounding scripture for himself, or he would have never listed these verses.
Go Pastor Johnson, I just wished everyone else had the gumption to stand up with us, instead of people like this twisting an agenda to suit their silly little ideas. Well now explain to me since they can not reproduce amongst themselves, how to they plan to exist?
Given the PS 282 parents objecting to Concord Baptist action and methods, including Ernestine and myself, are straight the reproduction thing shouldn't be too much of a problem. My wife and I already have 3 kids. The pastor speculated incorrectly that the parents who are speaking up are gay and/or affiliated with the gay rights movement. That was an incorrect assumption.
Given the PS 282 parents objecting to Concord Baptist action and methods, including Ernestine and myself, are straight the reproduction thing shouldn't be too much of a problem. My wife and I already have 3 kids. The pastor speculated incorrectly that the parents who are speaking up are gay and/or affiliated with the gay rights movement. That was an incorrect assumption.
I was a VBS worker this year at Brunswick Islands Baptist Church near Holden Beach, NC. We made kites and key chains and tie dyed t-shirts. Our message this year is that no matter who you are or where you are, or what happens, you can trust in God. We also fed the children each evening. I wish you could have seen the happy faces of the children as they sang and danced for their parents. We have both Democrats and Republicans at our church and a diverse congregation. I was able to get through so many hard times in my life because my parents sent me to Bible School. I know that I am alive today because of the love of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, I would surely have ended my life long ago. He really can give you peace that passes all understanding.
Since I’m sure you’re busy, I hope you get to see what we’re doing over at Upperatus and share it with your fans.
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