Dec 26, 2011
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President Obama redefined the meaning of Christmas during his weekly address to the nation — calling on Americans to “remember a spirit of service” – whatever they believe.
The president told Americans that Christmas is specifically about “giving of ourselves.”
“Service to others – that’s what this season is all about,” Obama said. “For my family and millions of Americans, that’s what Christmas is all about.”
However, for most Americans of the Christian faith, the season is all about celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ — the son of God.
Mrs. Obama made a passing reference to what she called a story of “love and redemption that began 2,000 years ago.”
But there were absolutely no mentions of Jesus, Wise Men, or even so much as a manger in the Obama’s address.
“So whatever you believe, wherever you’re from, let’s remember the spirit of service that connects us all this season – as Americans,” he said. ”Each of us can do our part to serve our communities and our country, not just today, but every day.”
The president also made the Christmas message all-inclusive — noting that “part of what it means to love God is to love one another, to be our brother’s keeper and our sister’s keeper.”
“But that believe is not just at the center of our Christian faith, it’s also shared by Americans of all faiths and backgrounds,” Obama said.
It’s not the first time the Obama White House has tried to make Christian holiday statements all-inclusive.
In 2010, Obama was criticized for releasing an all-inclusive Easter greeting. He reached out to Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and people of no faith at all in a statement about a holiday that is uniquely Christian.
“All of us are striving to make a way in this world; to build a purposeful and fulfilling life in the fleeting time we have here,” Obama said in his 2010 “Easter” message. “A dignified life. A healthy life. A life, true to its potential. And a life that serves other.” “These are aspirations that stretch back through the ages – aspirations at the heart of Judaism, at the heart of Christianity, at the heart of all the world’s great religions,” the president added.
When the White House released statements about Muslim holidays, no attempts were made to include Christianity or to mention a spirit of inclusivity. For example, in his 2010 statement on Hajj and Eid-ul-Adha, Obama made no references to Christianity or any other religion.
And in 2011 the White House Hanukkah message made no reference to any faith group or holiday other than Hanukkah.
By comparison, Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann’s Christmas greeting reminded Americans of the true reason for the season.
“At a time when Christ is all to often lost in Christmas, it’s more important than ever to draw near to our family and friends, praising and thanking God for the ultimate Christmas gift: His son,” she wrote in a message to her supporters. “He is the reason for the season and the source of all our blessings.”
Former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum also provided a Christmas message to his supporters.
“May you and your family take some time to remember the real meaning of the Christmas season and reflect on the miracle of the birth of Jesus Christ,” Santorum wrote.
So if Republicans like Bachmann and Santorum can identify the true meaning of Christmas — why can’t President Obama?
Read the President’s Christmas greeting below:
Remarks of President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama
Weekly Address
The White House
December 24, 2011
THE PRESIDENT: Hi everyone. As you gather with family and friends this weekend, Michelle, Malia, Sasha and I – and of course Bo – want to wish you all Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
THE FIRST LADY: This is such a wonderful time of year.
It’s a time to honor the story of love and redemption that began 2,000 years ago … a time to see the world through a child’s eyes and rediscover the magic all around us … and a time to give thanks for the gifts that bless us every single day.
This holiday season at the White House, we wanted to show our thanks with a special holiday tribute to some of the strongest, bravest, and most resilient members of our American family – the men and women who wear our country’s uniform and the families who support them.
THE PRESIDENT: For many military families, the best gift this year is a simple one – welcoming a loved one back for the holidays. You see, after nearly nine years, our war in Iraq is over. Our troops are coming home. And across America, military families are being reunited.
So let’s take a moment to give thanks for their service; for their families’ service; for our veterans’ service. And let’s say a prayer for all our troops standing post all over the world, especially our brave men and women in Afghanistan who are serving, even as we speak, in harm’s way to protect the freedoms and security we hold dear.
THE FIRST LADY: Our veterans, troops, and military families sacrifice so much for us.
So this holiday season, let’s make sure that all of them know just how much we appreciate everything they do.
Let’s ask ourselves, “How can I give back? How can my family serve them as well as they’ve served us”
One way you can get started is to visit JoiningForces.gov to find out how you can get involved in your community.
THE PRESIDENT: Giving of ourselves; service to others – that’s what this season is all about. For my family and millions of Americans, that’s what Christmas is all about. It reminds us that part of what it means to love God is to love one another, to be our brother’s keeper and our sister’s keeper. But that belief is not just at the center of our Christian faith, it’s shared by Americans of all faiths and backgrounds. It’s why so many of us, every year, volunteer our time to help those most in need; especially our hungry and our homeless.
So whatever you believe, wherever you’re from, let’s remember the spirit of service that connects us all this season – as Americans. Each of us can do our part to serve our communities and our country, not just today, but every day.
THE FIRST LADY: So from our family to yours, Merry Christmas.
THE PRESIDENT: Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, everybody.
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Dude, it needs to be all inclusive. The other holidays – the reason why no attempt to be made all inclusive is because the entire country does not celebrate them. You do not generally see Jewish or Islamic specific holiday items in stores, on signs, ect. Christmas is celebrated by peoples of all faiths in this country, whether or not you believe in god or jesus out of habit if nothing else. I am an Atheist, I did not celebrate Christmas because of Jesus, I celebrated it because it was what was expected from my GF, and my family. I did not put up a Christmas tree, but I gave gifts, had dinner with my family, ect. Christmas is seen as a time of giving, and what the president said is exactly right. To most people, it is a time of service, how can you help others and give to others? You Christians just don't seem to get it – there is nothing wrong with people seeing it specifically just as a time of service to your fellow man. Doing the right thing and helping others because it is right. It is just unfortunate that people need that backward ignorant superstition to help others and give to others rather than doing it because it is simply the right thing to do. Also bear in mind that Jesus was not even born on Dec. 25th! There is no evidence of that, not even in the bible, yet there is actually alot of evidence – even in the bible that he was NOT born on Dec. 25th. That is like celebrating my b-day on July 4th even thou it is in Oct. Makes no sense what so ever. Just another date in time that Christians decided to steal to help convert others to their cause.
@James, it does not surprise me that Obama said something that seems "exactly right" to an atheist. Your post proves a point that most Christians already know. Seek Jesus that you may escape the fires of Hell!
Lee Ebbs I dont agree with everything he says, but what he said here was right. It is not a point you "know". You do not know that there is a "hell" – or fire. The fact of the matter is that you know nothing and you assume everything. You have no proof, and you live like a coward. Believe in Jesus or burn. You are afraid of what "might" happen. You are a coward.
James Lott, well, that's what I expect from someone who can't debate the merits of their argument… just attack and call names. Let's see, I spent 27 years in the Army with 2 combat tours in Iraq and you say I'm a coward. Funny! You assume what I know and don't know and then accuse me of assumming… that's atheist logic. Logic for those not quite smart enough to see their own contradictions. For those who are perishing, the gospel seems like foolishness(1 Corinthians 1:18). But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10). Hell is real and the destiny of all those who die in their sin (Luke 16:19-31).
Lee Ebbs – You say that atheist have flawed logic. Then you quote the Bible to prove the Bible is true. Brilliant. Try googling “logical fallacy of circular reasoning”. Come back after you’ve done some reading.
But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10). So this is telling me that I have to believe in God before I can be granted the knowledge necessary to base my belief in God. Helluva of a system you have there Lee
Lee Ebbs I did 4 years army, what is your point? Combat tours do not prove courage. I say you are a coward because you live in fear of the unknown – so you believe something and follow something based solely on that fear. I am not assuming anything. You post says it for me. You believe in Jesus and in hell. You base your beliefs on an assumption – the bible says it, so you assume it must be true. No, Atheist logic dictates that just because someone says it, it does not necessarily make it so. If I say I can fly, you would ask that I prove it. You would not accept a response from me saying "well you can't prove I can't fly". I do not fear the lord because there is no lord to fear. There is no proof of any god. None. The bible was written by man, not god. Just because the bible says something is real, it does not mean that it is actually real. Neither you, nor anyone else can say and prove they have seen it. Touched it. You assume a lot. You sir, are a coward. You live in fear of the unknown. The definition according to Webster of fear is "one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity". When it comes to the unknown, that is what you are showing.
James Lott , well again you are assuming a lot because you know nothing about me nor how I became a Christian. I too was an idiot heathen just like you for most of my life, thinking I had it all figured out, thinking those religious people were fools. I had read much of the Bible and rejected its truth. Then a co-worker showed me Luke 16:19-31. Realizing that I had not seen that or other parts, I began to read the bible and I prayed that, if there was a real God, that he would reveal Himself to me and show me Truth… nothing fake, but what is real. After two weeks of reading the bible when I smoked in my garage, as I was about to exit the garage, a Voice spoke to me and said, "Got to Evangel Temple"… I froze!! A bit freaked out, I did know if I was losing my mind or what I had just heard, but I said, Ok, if that is You God, then when I go to this place (that I had not even heard of) then something real will happen and, if not, then I'll know that the Voice was not God and I may well be losing it! I looked in the phonebook to see if there was such a place and, yes, there it was. Got the address and we went that Sunday night at the evening service. As I walked into the foyer, nothing unusual, it seemed like a regular, same old churchy church and I thought, I was wasting my time. However, as soon as I walked into the sanctuary, they were singing Christian songs and something hit me hard, like a rushing wind and what felt like lightning coursing through my body and I was instantly burdened with sorrow and guilt and could barely maintain my composure… why, why, I thought! What is happening to me! Why do I feel so badly and burdened….. later I would discover that it was the Holy Spirit convicting me of my sin and pointing me to Jesus Who is the only One Who could take that sin away…… that's only part of the story. I'll let you little insults go, but trust me, I do not live in fear. Though not worthy, I bask in the Glow of God's Love and assurance of His forgiveness!
Paul Wegener, not at all, that scripture just states a spiritual fact, that true wisdom starts to grow when a man starts to respect the magnificence of God, his creator.
James Lott
Below is a quote from Noah Webster who you used to correct Lee Ebbs. Contrary to how you quoted Webster this quote shows that he is in perfect agreement with Lee's use of the term "fear".
When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers, "just men who will rule in the fear of God." The preservation of government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty; if the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the laws; the public revenues will be sqandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded. If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws.
[Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, �49.]
Lee Ebbs, And there are a billion Hindus who claim the same supernatural experience. Why should I believe you over them or vice versa? How vain you are to think the creator of the universe, in all its size and grandeur, talked to you in your garage after you had a smoke, but didn't bother with a starving child in Africa. The universe doesn't owe you anything. And enough with the taunts of hell.
Lee Ebbs Blah, blah, blah. I knew a guy who thought he was Elvis. Unconvincing delusional story….so what? You obviously weren't a complete heathen (like me) otherwise you would have rejected ALL of the Bible. And your story illustrates that all you have to do to know that a god is true is to believe in a god and prayer to that god for that god to show you that she/he/it was true. Now I need you to google "confirmation bias" and come back a talk to us later.
Paula Hall "If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness,…" That's not the governemts job!! That is for the private sector. This is socialist liberal propaganda. Quit spreading this claptrap commie!
Lee Ebbs No, I've read the entire bible, not "much of it". I've read it cover to cover. I don't care how you became a Christian. If fact you just described every Christian! You take specific parts of the bible, and leave out the rest. Never mind the bible condones rape, murder, incest, genocide and slavery! Jesus said himself he did not come to wipe the rules of the OT. If that was all it took to turn you into a Christian – then you were always a weak-minded individual. The fact of the matter is that you are acting like a coward now. When you tell someone that they need something because something bad will happen – and all of it is a maybe – that is living in fear. That is showing and proving you live in fear. Lmfao – everything you just described – you were high. Fumes in your garage dude. No one was born bad. No one needs Jesus. You dont "need forgiveness" – you just need to learn how to act like a man and an adult and own up to your mistakes. You just need to learn how to let things go.
Paula Hall Noah Webster was a typical Christian, I am well aware of that. What I am also aware of is the fact that his Dictionary is standard – even in schools. That is why I use. The calendar is technically Christian – as an Atheist I have to use it because it is the standard calendar. You proved nothing at all. Grow up a little bit. Proving someone that made something was a Christian does not matter little girl.
James Lott
Below is a link to Noah Webster's original dictionary. The secularists of this century have removed all of the original Christian meanings and comments. But you will still find them in his dictionary of 1828. No other dictionary compares with the Webster's 1828 dictionary. The English language has changed again and again and in many instances has become corrupt. The American Dictionary of the English Language is based upon God's written word, for Noah Webster used the Bible as the foundation for his definitions. http://1828.mshaffer.com/
Paula Hall Removing religion does not make it corrupt. It makes it all inclusive for everyone because guess what – not all English speaking people are Christian!
James Lott, Tim, and Paul , so delusional. By the way, every time I've ever seen someone keep and handle snakes, they are scared little boys who deperately need to attempt to show they are not scared… "hey, look at me, I'm a tough guy, I have a snake" Ha ha. Now that's pathetic. Anyway, I've spoken the truth here and you, well you know you need to seek Jesus because He is the only chance ALL of you have of not paying the eternal price for your sin. Later
Lee Ebbs Actually no – I just like snakes. I keep them as pets, same as someone keeps cats and dogs. It has nothing to do with being tough. Seriously though? That is what you do? Make a personal attack? I attack your way of thinking and the serious lack of thought behind everything you have said and that is what you have for me? Attacking the fact that I keep snakes? LMFAO wow… I have no sin. I was not born with sin, and I am a man. I own up to my mistakes. I dont need forgiveness because I know how to forgive myself – and drive on. That is what we are taught in the army – remember? Improvise, Adapt, OVERCOME! No, you have not spoken "the truth" you have spoken YOUR truth.
James Lott What is wrong is making people believe it has a secular origin when Noah Webster ONLY agreed to do the dictionary after he was promised he could base it on the Word of God.
Paula Hall Too bad he based it on the word of man, huh?
Lee Ebbs So people who handle snakes are pathetic and scared? Like the APOSTLES?!? How very anti-Christian of you. Mark 16:17–18 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up SERPENTS with their hands; Why do you make fun of Jesus?
Paula Hall "The English language has changed again and again and in many instances has become corrupt. " – I look at it as the corruption slowly being removed from it. To base all of a nations definitions upon ones view of a specific religion is a corruption of meaning. thankfully, we have as a civilization grown more mature and secualr since the days of Noah Webster. Tale tells that he also went insane later in his life? Dare I suggest that a belief in his religion made it worse?
James Lott,
If there is no God, then it is foolish to say that something is "right" or "wrong". Whatever every individual wants to do or can get away with doing is what is "right". What others think is right or wrong is just their opinion.
Now, if there is a God, especially the One who says that He created mankind in His image and says that He is good, and that He loves us so much that He allows us to choose Him and has provided a way to intimately know Him, by Himself coming to be one of us in the person of Jesus Christ and dying to pay our sin debt, then it is only "right" to let those who reject Him to go where He is not, hell fire.
You may reject that truth too, but your rejection won't alter the truth, it will only increase your guilt. That same God that you are rejecting still loves you. That is what He said when they were driving the nails into His wrists, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." I am hoping that you don't know what you are doing in rejecting Him until now. But since I, who do know Him, am telling you about Him, you are no longer without that knowledge. It will require faith in someone's word, first His, when He spoke to some old guys that have already died, but wrote it down as He said it and breathed it into their consciences (it is a God-thing), and then by me who have personally come to know Him when I believed what some of His followers shared with me. But let me tell you, James, it sure is wonderful to know Him. Wow!
I didn't write to offend you, but I would rather offend you a little now and have you come to think about what He is offering you, salvation from your sins (just like what I have), than to let you live an "all-inclusive" waltz to hell, where God isn't.
I am saved, not because I am better than you, but because He let me hear about this plan of love, just like you have now heard.
Don't miss out on it, James, I beg you, for your own sake.
wow dude the bible thumpers are attacking u like rabid bible eaters lol . listen you bunch or cult followers fuck off and go kill your selves you are not just cowards your slaves to a machine that put a slave collar around your pathetic necks long long ago Jesus was a fucking carpenter that's about all the hole concept of your cult is control and nothing else your leaders are fools that read a book written by a fool that had a bad acid trip. you go preach your garbage somewhere else.
There was a time when idiots much like yourselves were put to death. God in his bible has stories of exterminating cultures for such ilicit acts. All of you can go to hell, and I promise you it will come to be!
James, I'm an atheist/agnostic too. Please shut up with your ignorant comments. You are giving the rest of us a bad name. You are the worst kind of atheist, because your atheism has become so militant that you hate those who don't share your beliefs, making you just as ignorant as all the religous zealots you profess to hate. Grow up, little boy.
Paul DiAndrea No, Atheists like you are the problem, you say I am giving you a bad name? No, I am being honest. You be nice for the sake of being nice, never mind that your being nice is allowing those idiots to spread falsities and hurt others – mentally, physically, and emotionally. If anyone needs to grow up, it is you. You do not even have the strength of mind to come out and tell the truth, at least I do. You wanna know why my Atheism has become militant? Because unlike you I have actually had to feel the prejudice. I have been threatened, attacked – even physically – I have lost friends and family, ect. All because I do not believe in any god. I have seen the harm religion causes first hand. You need to grow up and grow a backbone. Live and let live does not work when both sides dont agree to it.
Richard Lopez God does not have any stories in the bible – god did not write the bible. Man did.
I agree with James for the most part, except that I'm a Christian. This was probably the least offensive thing I've ever seen from the Obamas. When was the last time a Christian celebrated Yom Kippor(spelling?)? Never. When was the last time you heard of a Christian fasting during Ramadan? Never! And there is nothing wrong with that, just like there is nothing wrong with a non-Christian joining in on the Christmas festivities if it is for the right reasons. Those reasons, to me at least, would include because it really is the time of year that we all come together for fellowship and for selfless giving(not just presents but to the poor, etc).
We as Christians have become too wrapped up in the commercialization of Christmas, and it is pathetic! I see no damnation in the future for a person who lives life as a good person to the best of their abilities just because it's the right thing to do, and not because some holy book or god they don't believe in said to do it. I don't live life like I do because it's what Jesus would do, I do it because I think there is not enough love in this world and I hope that anyone I help would have the compassion to do the same for me in my time of need, because I try to believe the best of people even though it's not always there.
I think the real issue most "Christians"/conservatives take with this is the fact that it was the Obamas that said it. Had it been W and Laura Bush there would be no issue! I despise Obama on a cellular level, but I'll give credit where credit is due, and this was by no means an offensive address to anyone with a half functioning brain.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" -Ghandi.
I should add:
James is correct that the idea of Christ being born on Dec. 25 is impossible to prove, and this irks me when people actually believe this so deeply. Most scholars will tell you, due to the details given in the bible Christ was most likely born during spring time, I've most often read March as the estimate. But I don't see why you think this is so ridiculous? How is it any different than the day we celebrate Thanksgiving? Or any other recognized tradition for that matter.
We set a date as what will be the easiest to accept and acclimate the masses to, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there should still be an understanding that there is almost always more to it than the surface value, but most people are too closed minded to accept anything different than what they've been told, and are too lazy to do their own research.
Here is a quote from our 6th President, John Quincy Adams: "In the chain of human events, the birtday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birtday of the savior." 1837 – Evidently he was a believer in Jesus Christ too.
And,
As an answer to James Lott, Jesus was conceived on December 25, and born on September 29, the Jewish Holiday of Rosh Hashanah. Rosh Hashanah was the beginning of the Jewish year. In Jewish thought, Rosh Hashanah is the most important judgment day, on which all the inhabitants of the world pass for judgment before the Creator. Sept 29, 1999 marked 6,000 years since Adam's creation making it what orthodox Jewish call the beginning of the time of judgement upon the nations. It is also significant to the fact that Christians believe conception begins life in the womb. So that would make Dec 25 the true beginning of Jesus life as a man.
So Jugdement Day came and went like 12 years ago?? Can't believe I missed that.
Paul Wegener
Enjoying the recession?
Paula Hall 1) We're not in a recession 2) Yup. I'm doing just fine. What's that got to do with any of the topics discussed here? Google "non sequitur" Do I have to teach you Christians everything?
What about the headline link provided below from money.com if there is as you say 'no recession'? http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/30/news/economy/double_dip_recession/index.htm
No, John Adams was Deist at best. He saw Nature/Science as god. Not something you worship, but something you respect. These are all quotes from Adams.
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"
". . . Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
Yes, that is one of the MANY theories floating around. Again, that theory does NOT matter. You are talking about a holiday that is so mainstream, people celebrate it whether or not they believe that. It needs to be all inclusive – especially in a Secular nation which is exactly what we have.
Oh, and btw – that quote does not "prove" anything, accept that he understood how politics work. It has always been political suicide in this nation to admit you do not believe in god, or leave god out of a speech.
James Lott Please document your sources to validate them.
Paula Hall 1) It does not say we are IN a recession. Learn to READ lady. This was from September!! It didn't happen 2) What the hell does that with the topic???? LOOK UP "non sequitur". I'm really tired of having to teach the BASICS of logic to Christians. Going to rest up now for another long day of attempting to educate the uneducatable
Paul Wegener Good night!!! Sleep tight!!!
Paula Hall Why should Jame bother documenting sources. He can just make it up like the David Barton of Wallbuilders that you admire so much. Try this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42653890#42653890
David Barton he's the man!!! If he can't do it no one can!!! Yeah David!!!
Paula Hall Ah! So now you ask for proof, yet you ask for none out of the bible. Wow, that makes a lot of sense…
Ok, you would like sources?
The Thirteen Governments quote. – The Political Writings of John Adams by John Adams, George Wescott Carey
Have you considered quote. – John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814
Natural God quote – John Adams, letter to Jefferson – June 20th – 1815
This would be the best of all possible worlds quote – John Adams, letter to Jefferson, April 19th, 1870
can a free government quote – Letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821
As for the rest, just google it. I'm tired and im tired of writing. Here is a link for the letters, and the book you can go and buy and read same as I did. http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/livingrev/religion/text3/adamsjeffersoncor.pdf
Paulal Hall – Omg no one knows the exact date he was born. It was likely sometime in the fall but there is NO WAY you know when he was conceived OR what day he was born when NO ONE knows that. Wow – that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever read.
James Lott She did say John Quincy Adams said that quote. But yes most Founders were not Christians.
Kelly Calder Below is more of the context of the first quote by John Quincy Adams Seeing as I have generously given you my source, I am requesting of you to provide your source for saying the Declaration of Independence was lost and unreadable. That Kelly dear is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.
An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport, at their request, on the Sixty-First Anniversary
of the Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1837.
By John Quincy Adams. Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity, and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfillment of the prophecies, announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Savior and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets six hundred years before?
Paula Hall Maybe reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said that they did NOT TAKE CARE OF THE DECLARATION as well as they did the CONSTITUTION because the Constitution is more important. Go to the National Archives where the ACTUAL Declaration and Constitution are housed. I have SEEN with my eyes the D of I – you cannot read most of the signatures anymore. The reason – from the tour guide – is that it was not stored properly for many, many years because people did not think it was significant. The Constitution, however, is our law, so it was stored as properly as possible for years. I don't care that John Quincy Adams was Christian – he's one politician at the time. Does that mean ALL of them believed the same way as him? No. Someone else posted a bunch of quotes from his father, John Adams, who was not religious. So what's your point? I have stated that some Founders were Christians, some were not religious but spiritual, some were deists and some weren't religious or spiritual. However I will disagree with John Quincy Adams – the birth of our nation is NOT linked to the "birth of the Savior." Everyone does not believe Jesus was the "savior" of mankind. You can believe that – I don't have to. Neither do Jews, or Muslims or every other religion in the world. No religion is more right than another one.
So what exactly is your point? What you say is "the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of." Again reading comprehension – I know it must be tough.
Kelly Calder Below is a portion of a letter written by John Adams, John Quincy Adam's father to Benjamin Rush December 21, 1809
But my friend there is something very serious in this business. The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this Earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a Sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost, who is transmitted from age to age by laying the hands of the Bishop on the heads of candidates for the Ministry. In the same manner as the Holy Ghost is transmitted from monarch to monarch by the holy oil in the vial at Rheims which was brought down from Heaven by a dove and by that other phial [vial] which I have seen in the Tower of London. There is no authority civil or religious: There can be no legitimate government but that which is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.
Paula Hall You think people's views on religion don't change over time? See the quotes the other guy posted are after 1809…so apparently John Adams had a crisis of conscience or something…I mean I used to be Catholic until I realized how ridiculous it is – and now I have no religion but don't get it twisted..I'm no atheist or agnostic.
Paula Hill – Here is the “proof” or “evidence” you wanted about the Declaration. Read through this link. It states in here how the Declaration was originally stored:
http://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/history-of-declaration-of-independence.html
Early Travels: 1776-1814: Once the Declaration was signed, the document probably accompanied the Continental Congress as that body traveled during the uncertain months and years of the Revolution. Initially, like other parchment documents of the time, the Declaration was probably stored in a rolled format. Each time the document was used, it would have been unrolled and re-rolled. This action, as well as holding the curled parchment flat, doubtless took its toll on the ink and on the parchment surface through abrasion and flexing. The acidity inherent in the iron gall ink used by Timothy Matlack allowed the ink to "bite" into the surface of the parchment, thus contributing to the ink's longevity, but the rolling and unrolling of the parchment still presented many hazards.
After the signing ceremony on August 2, 1776, the Declaration was most likely filed in Philadelphia in the office of Charles Thomson, who served as the Secretary of the Continental Congress from 1774 to 1789. On December 12, threatened by the British, Congress adjourned and reconvened 8 days later in Baltimore, MD. A light wagon carried the Declaration to its new home, where it remained until its return to Philadelphia in March of 1777.On January 18, 1777, while the Declaration was still in Baltimore, Congress, bolstered by military successes at Trenton and Princeton, ordered the second official printing of the document. The July 4 printing had included only the names of John Hancock and Charles Thomson, and even though the first printing had been promptly circulated to the states, the names of subsequent signers were kept secret for a time because of fear of British reprisals. By its order of January 18, however, Congress required that "an authentic copy of the Declaration of Independency, with the names of the members of Congress subscribing to the same, be sent to each of the United States, and that they be desired to have the same put upon record." The "authentic copy" was duly printed, complete with signers' names, by Mary Katherine Goddard in Baltimore.
——
There is more in that link – I’m not saying it’s not an important part of the history of the US – I’m saying it was not AS important as the Constitution to make sure it didn’t fade or wear out. THAT is my point. The Declaration doesn’t “prove” that our country is Christian. The Constitution is the law of the land and if the Founders were so “Christian” wanted this to be solely a Christian nation, why didn’t they write that into the law of the land? Can any of you answer that? The Declaration was purely that – a DECLARATION of our independence from England. That is all it was. To state the grievances that led to the break from England, that led to the rebellion and insurgency of the colonies. It’s important as a historical document but that is all it is – history. To show why the Americans were so pissed off.
Kelly Calder RE: The Constitution is the law of the land and if the Founders were so “Christian” wanted this to be solely a Christian nation, why didn’t they write that into the law of the land? Can any of you answer that?
Dear Kelly, It is because there was an overwhelming concern on behalf of the framers that there might have been a domineering stance by one of the Christian sects. It's not that they were not devout in their Christianity, but they were well-educated men and knew the abuses that had happened with the state sponsored Church of England and the State sponsored Catholic churches in Europe. Many of them were escapees from the persecution there. They were alot from the Quaker, Puritan and Amish stocks that although being very devoutly religious came to America to escape religious persecution in their own lands. BTW, why did you stop being a Catholic?
Kelly Calder It just so happens that I picked up my book "Original Intent" by David Barton to read just now and it deals with your questions on the Constitution. I will quote the end of the appeal to the Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 1824 Supreme Court of Pennyslvania. – The assertion is once more made that Christianity never was received as part of the common law of this Christian land; and it is added that if it was it was virtually repealed by the Constitution of the United States and of this State….
We will first dispose of what is considered the grand objection – the Constitutionality of Christianity – for, in effect, that is the question. Christianity, general Christianity, is and always has been part of the common law… not Christianity with an established church… but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.
Thus this wise legislature framed this great body of laws for a Christian country and a Christian people…. This is the Christianity of the Common Law… and thus it is irrefragably (undeniably) proved that the laws and institutions o fthis State are built on the foundation of reverence for Christianity…. In this the Constitution of the United States has made no alteration nor in the great body of laws which was an incorporation of the Common-Law Doctrine of Christianity.
No free government now exists in the world unless where Christianity is acknowledged and is the religion of the country… It's foundations are broad and strong and deep… it is the purest system of morality, the firmest auxiliary, and only stable support of all human laws. PEACE BE TO YOU, Kelly
Paula Hall, David Barton is not an historian or a Constitutional scholar. Try reading something doesn't automatically agree with your point of view.
Paula Hall That did not prove your point at all but nice try. I stopped being a Catholic because I realized I had my OWN brain and I don't agree with it or any other religion. Sorry I don't need to be indoctrinated. I like having my own thoughts and feelings. Your question was about my source for the Declaration on where I found that it's barely legible anymore. I showed that to you and you counter with that nonsense from a book that's not even by a historian or any type of expert? Do you ever read things that show the other side of your view or just one-sided sources? I read both sides of an issue whether I agree or disagree. That's how a person learns.
Paula Hall I thought I would pop back in for a second. No one is denying that the Declaration is an important historical document – however, they are right. It is nothing more than that. The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea that the power to rule over other people comes from god. It was a letter from the Colonies to the English King, stating their intentions to seperate themselves. The Declaration is not a governing document. It mentions "Nature's God" and that's the language of Deism, not Christianity. Thomas Jefferson's original words were actually changed by congress. It was actually supposed to read ""All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." But you have to remember, we are not governed by the Declaration of Independence– it is a historical document, not a constitutional one.
http://www.princeton.edu/~tjpapers/declaration/declaration.html
You should also bear in mind, if the founders were Christian and followed the bible devoutly, they would probably not have revolted against England. Since you are all about your religion, you of all people should be aware of this. Here are a couple of examples off of the top of my head.
Proverbs 17:11
An evil man seeks only rebellion, and a cruel messenger will be sent against him.
Romans 13:1-2
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority
except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established
by God. 2. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what
God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Paula Hall We will first dispose of what is considered the grand objection – Constitutionality of Christianity Sigh. That is NOT the grand objection. Please google "strawman logical fallacy". And quit using Barton. He's a proven liar and I've given you several links to back that up
Paula Hall – "Enjoying the recession?" WOW! What a very rude person you are. Are you actually GLOATING over the economic mess that right wingers are trying to force upon the working class? You REALLY push me away from Christianity saying rude things like that.
RE: And quit using Barton
Barton is my hero.
Jeremy Martin
You need to read the context. And what I was replying to. Someone had rudely interjected that he had missed the day of Judgement as if it was a myth. I simply pointed to the recession as a proof of Judgement. That is all.
To James Lott
Shows how little you know about the Bible. Scripture says that an inexperienced man takes everything literally. Also Isaiah says that all yokes will be broken from off of our necks because of the Holy Spirit indwelling in us which is the free gift of Jesus Christ. The very proof that an undisciplined barefoot army beat the best army around at that time is proof of the Holy Spirit's actions. Slavery (which we were) has and always will be a curse. Christians are only blessed.
Paula Hall David Barton is a hack. Barton holds no formal credentials in history or law, and anyone with any sense will dispute the accuracy and integrity of his assertions about history. He regularly practices misleading historical revisionism, "pseudoscholarship" and even outright lies! His research has been described as flawed by many historians, who dismiss his work as that of "a biased amateur who cherry-picks quotes from history and the Bible." Your "hero" and anything he says is in no way admissible as evidence of anything what so ever.
To Paul Wegener
Barton is my hero. I will use him as my official source of quotes to wake up the Christian sleeping giant in our county and influence elections.
Paula Hall Judgement day IS a myth. The recession is not proof of a coming judgment day. This is not the first recession we have had, nor will it be the last. People have been pointing to "signs" for the last 2000 years saying that judgment day was coming, and for the most part – signs they have spoken of were a lot more convincing that the current recession.
To James Lot
All you can do is to accuse, but where is the constructive building. Christians give because they build. Deconstructionists do just that. Deconstruct.
to James Lott
so then my answer was not really rude, as claimed.
Paula Hall no, I don't think it was rude. Ignorant maybe – but not rude. But I can see how it can be construed as rude.
James Lott thank you
Paula Hall Accuse? I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am stating facts. Christians give because they build? LMFAO what are you trying to give or build? If anything you are trying to destroy the idea of a secular nation fair for everyone. You listen to a man that sees everyone not christian as a second class or third class citizen. You listen to a man that says that religion should be a part of government – specifically the Christian religion. Constructive building? What do you want to know? You have not asked a single question of me. Just made inaccurate statements that I have continuously had to refute because I hate inaccuracy in information. The fact of the matter is that this IS a secular nation, there is and should be a complete separation between church and state, and you have no proof of your beliefs aside from the bible. The only real sources you have named off are biased at best – and are guilty of bigotry at worst. You have a very biased mentality and do not look at information or history from the different angles that an intelligent person should. You want constructive? Ok, you seem like an intelligent woman capable of a lot more than you are showing. You need to broaden your perspective a lot more because at the moment, it is horribly lacking in even basic common sense. You need to broaden your knowledge away from sources that are strictly Christian because those views always create a biased, inaccurate store of information. You are not using the critical thinking skills that should be being applied to the information you are taking in from people like David Barton. You tried to put down deconstructing something, but the fact is that you have to deconstruct information in order to see how it is flawed, inaccurate and cherry picked.
Paula Hall No one knows if that's true (Judgment Day). Guess we'll find out or generations later will.
Paula Hall – "I simply pointed to the recession as a proof of Judgement." – WOW! Your God sounds like an A-hole. I dont want anything to do with an SOB like that. You actually worship something like that?
Paula…I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but almost everything you believe is not supported by any Christian Church that I'm aware of. First, your assertion that Jesus was "conceived on December 25…" According to the Bible, Jesus' Mother Mary was granted the miracle of a Virgin Birth. There was no "conception." Secondly, careful analysis of the Biblical Christmas Story (…the Wise Men following a Star, the shepherds watching their sheep) indicates that Christ was born in the spring (watching their sheep), probably March, about four years before the year given credit (The last great alignment of stars the Magi (astrologers) were seeking). Finally, the reason we celebrate the birth in the month of December is that it coincided with the Roman Bacchanalia. While the Romans were busy getting drunk, the Christians were celebrating Christ. Let me know if you need some references. The Catholics have libraries full of them.
Toby Michael Younis Technically she had no sex with a man (Mary) but there had to be a conception of some kind to make a baby. According to the story it was god who got her pregnant. I mean technically…somehow there was a conception somehow. I thought they stole Saturnalia from the pagans (Christians that is) in order to convert more people.
James Lott You query why an intelligent woman would embrace Christianity. Here is the thought provoking answer straight from my own heart. The Buddhists of China & Thailand, the Hindus of India, the atheists of Greece and the Ukraine, the Muslim world, the drug lords of Mexico, the black market profiteers of Russia, the sex tourists, the brothel frequenters, the massage parlors, the porn addicts, the natural fathers who are raping their own daughters at an alarming rate, the Animists of the Dark Continent and the gangsters of the Philippines (did I leave anyone out), all are embroiled in the largest slave trade ever known to mankind. Only and my emphasis is on the word ONLY – in Christian teaching can we find protection for women and children from the heinous and degrading practices of sex slavery as atheistic/anti-Christian forces spread their foment across the face of the earth. For when Jesus teaches not to look upon a woman because it is adultery, then we know that pornography or viewing women as a mere means of attaining sexual gratification is wrong/sin. How much more so is it to kidnap a woman and have her raped up to 20 times a day 7 days a week? And to gain her subjection by starvation, beatings, threats to her family, sedation drugs, electric shock, putting her in sewage infested with rats and scorpions for up to a week at a time for simply trying to escape? Sex slavery is one of the biggest money makers for organized criminals. And what is organized crime except the lack of embracing the 10 Commandments as a personal creed? Truly there is a lot of money riding on teaching people to not accept the tethered reign of the 10 Commandments. Where would you have me find shelter in any other doctrine except Christianity, or in any other country but America? America, the last refuge of the persecuted? In response to your sincere comment, you can see that truly I have more than just cause for supporting Christianity in my home country and in exposing the lies of those who say America was not solidly founded on Christian beliefs. Quite clearly only Christianity has the power to put both organized criminals and their vast empires of money making sex-slavery out of business. I am turly fighting against slavery today when I advocate for embracing Christianity.
Paula Hall – Excuse me but the Ten Commandents CONDONES slavery NOT condemns it. "Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female SLAVE, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor"!!!!! You really need to READ the Bible sometime. It's loaded with SUPPORT for slavery. Are you sure you're a Christian?
Paula Hall Wait a minute – seriously? the bible is where slavers got their rules for keeping and treating slaves! The bible condones rape, murder, incest, genocide and slavery! Sex slavery is talked about and condoned in the bible – along side of the 10 commandments. The only lie is trying to say that the United States was founding on Christian beliefs. Jefferson himself started the University of Virginia – and he made good and sure that religion stayed out of the school and its teachings! Christianity is the REASON why sex slavery is such an issue. The bible CONDONES it!
Paula Hall – Are you out of your f*ing mind? What’s wrong with Buddhists? Or Hindus? What’s wrong with an atheist or Muslims? Those aren’t criminals as you seem to be lumping them together with those type of people. Now those other unsavory characters you mention have ALWAYS existed. Christianity hasn’t stopped them – and there have been those people among Christians!! Did you forget about the child abuse scandal amongst the Catholic priests? Christian teaching HELD WOMEN BACK for CENTURIES!! Did you know Muslim women during the time of Muhammed were far more advanced and had more freedoms than Christian women at the same time? Yeah do a little research. The way women are treated in some of these so-called Muslim countries are not following their own religion – that’s now how they’re supposed to be treated.
Atheists have nothing to do with the way people act horribly. Oh get out of here. People looking at porn is not adultery. For one, human beings are not meant to be monogamous. I’m not saying I’m not monogamous but we are animals. Our ancestors were not monogamous and marriage was initially created as a form of money, power and land transfer. That’s it. Oh continuing the “family name.” What does sex slavery have to do with any of the beliefs you mentioned? I’m pretty sure “good, honest Christians” have been slave owners. There are no “lies” when we say America was not founded on Christianity. You need to do some research into history there lady.
Proving once again he is an alien. I bet even the Coneheads from SNL would have a better understanding of Christmas and America.
Ken Romero Not really. Just because you dont understand Christmas and America does not mean he doesnt. Seems to me he has a better grasp on it than you do.
James Lott, just for my info, what sex slavery are you referring to that the Bible condones?
Robert Michael Wacaser He said the Bible condones slavery. Which it does. Slavery is slavery – I don't care if it's sex trafficking or whatever. It's all wrong I think we can all agree. Oh but the excuse is "The Bible was written during a different time." Exactly – it's a book that has nothing to do with god. Any god. No religious text does. It's man's perception of people and events some of which probably didn't really happen.
just more proof he is a practicing muslim.
But…many other people of other faiths do celebrate Christmas. It's not just a Christian time of celebration Dec 25. Considering Christians stole Dec 25 from the pagans, and Jesus was not born on that day, how can it not be all inclusive. Do people really think Jesus would be offended by someone putting out a message of giving and sharing? I highly doubt he would want people arguing over what day his birthday was on. You people need to get over it already – don't you have better things to worry about?
Actually, Obama sounds more like what the Gospels say about how Christ spoke. (If you can believe in a set of books that was edited by a Roman Emporer hundreds of years after the death of Christ). After all, Christ was neither a Christian, nor a celebrant of Christmas. Mostly he spoke of love, peace, good and God. Since when do Christians "own" that kind of messaging? If anything, most of the Christians I read, including the guy that writes this blog, are far less open and forgiving than Barack Obama seems to be.
Besides, when are Christians going to realize that the holiday has been hijacked by the retail industry? If you really think this is about Christ, ask yourself how much of the "$120 billion in retail holiday sales" you contributed to.
My only regret is that we'll have to wait until 2017 to hear what the next President will have to say in his/her "Holiday" message to make a comparison. I hope it's a Republican so I can make more fun of Todd Starnes, and his mis-directed, self-serving BS.
Mangers and Wise Men, Todd? Seriously?
no-comment yet
It always gets me how atheists always know what the Bible says.
Paula Hall Just curious how you came to the conclusion I was an Atheist? I know what the Bible says because I studied it in Catholic school for 13 years. Besides, Atheism is the lack of belief in a supreme being. It has nothing to do with the historical Christ, or the New Testament.
Toby Michael Younis Because of your exceedingly mean words which follow: "My only regret is that we'll have to wait until 2017 to hear what the next President will have to say in his/her "Holiday" message to make a comparison. I hope it's a Republican so I can make more fun of Todd Starnes, and his mis-directed, self-serving BS."
Paula Hall We know what the bible says because we actually read it cover to cover – the bible is the best reason FOR atheism.
Paula Hall Again, I'm not certain how exactly those "maen words" would make me an Atheist. And, if "mean words" were the test for whether or not one was an atheist, I'd say at least half the individuals who comment on Mr. Starne's blog, by your definition, are atheists.
Jesus was very specific in his message, no man comes to the Father except thru me. The bible is very clear on the subject, without Christ there is no hope for salvation. The message of Christmas is God's gift of a sacrifice to atone for the sins of his children so that he could redeem them and restore the relationship that was broken in Eden. All of the commercial trappings obscure that message. Obama's mistake was to assume that a Christian holiday was nothing by the commercial trappings. Instead of speaking to what it really means, he retreated as usual behind a smoke screen of generalities.
Tom Holliman That is the problem – you assume that is what it means for everyone and that is not the case. Obama did not make a mistake in this instance – it is you who are making the mistake of thinking that everyone who celebrates Christmas does so to celebrate Jesus. Here is the thing – you do not need salvation when you are not born with sin. No one is born with sin. You are not born "bad". There is no need to atone for gods own mistakes. There is no god to atone to.
Tom Holliman God lives in me, and I live in God. What is it that any religion, or any religious belief (including Salvation through Jesus), can do to embellish or enhance that relationship? Are you telling me I'm not getting into Heaven?
Tom Holliman …one other thing, Tom. Speaking in generalities is the nature of the Presidency, because every President presides over the entire United States regardless of gender, race, creed, color, political affiliation or religions affiliation (or not). And, the Constitution is written so that the President isn't left with another choice. In America, the Constitution trumps religion. I'd really like to hear what Jesus Christ would have had to say about Obama's statement. I can't imagine he'd find a way to criticize it. What? "Mr. President, you could have mentioned my birthday?" Really?
I am really very sad that I was not able to reach the atheists here. You cannot begin to imagine what you are missing. May God Bless All of You and allow you to see. But know too that your many criticisms have not changed my mind at all. The majority of the people in America are still Christians and I am giving myself wholeheartedly to usher in the awakening to the deep Christian roots of our founding fathers that has already begun.