Nov 18, 2011
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Military officials at Camp Pendleton are investigating a cross that was erected by a group of former Marines to honor their fallen colleagues, after an atheist group objected to the monument.
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“Camp Pendleton legal authorities are researching and reviewing the issue in order to make a judicious decision,” Lt. Ryan Finnegan said in a statement to Fox News & Commentary. “As Marines, we are proud to honor our fallen brothers, and are also proud of our extended Marine Corps family. However, it is important to follow procedure and use appropriate processes for doing this in a correct manner to protect the sentiment from question as well as be good stewards of our taxpayer dollars.”
Photo Courtesy of LA Times
The Los Angeles Times documented the former Marines as they carried the 13-foot cross up a steep hill – a Veterans Day journey that took two hours. They were accompanied by the widows and children of the fallen Marines. You can read the LA Times blog by clicking here.
The cross was erected and dedicated to the memory of Maj. Douglas Zembiec, Maj. Ray Mendoza, Lance Cpl. Aaron Austin and Lance Cpl. Robert Zurheide. It replaced another cross that was destroyed by a brush fire in 2003.
The former Marines chose to carry the cross, rather than use a vehicle. They told the newspaper that carrying the cross was an act of profound symbolism: the fallen are never forgotten, the mission never falters.
But for Jason Torpy, president of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, the cross is a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state.
“The question is why government officials would allow this to happen,” Torpy told Fox News & Commentary.
Torpy said he contacted Camp Pendleton to raise objections on behalf of a number of his members who read the LA Times story.
“I can definitely understand losing someone in combat,” Torpy said. “I was in Iraq. But it’s unfortunate that now I have to be a bad guy and ask why is this on federal land instead of on private land.”
Torpy said he could have given the Marines a pass.
“Maybe, but not really,” he said. “This is a large, 13-foot cross – generally these things are posted up in places that lord over the surrounding area.”
He said the allowing the cross to remain on Camp Pendleton property is “exploiting my service in order to gain special privileges for Christianity and that’s not fair to me.”
Lt. Finnegan confirmed to Fox News that the cross is on Camp Pendleton land.
He said the former Marines who erected the cross were “private individuals acting solely in their personal capacities. As such they were not acting in any official position or capacity that may be construed as an endorsement of a specific religious denomination by the Department of Defense or the U.S. Marine Corps.”
Depending on the outcome of the review, the cross could be removed.
Torpy said that’s the appropriate thing to do.
“I’m sure there’s maybe some way that this could be worked out, but wandering up a hill at Camp Pendleton with an exclusively sectarian religious monument, a big one, and say ‘I’m just going to do this on my own – that’s not how the federal government works,” he said.
Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council and a former Marine, said he was disgusted by the atheist’s complaints.
“It’s really outrageous and it shows the hostile environment that’s been created by this (Obama) administration towards religious freedom,” Perkins told Fox News. “At some point, we have to say, enough is enough.”
Perkins said radical atheists are attacking the U.S. Military.
“I’ve actually climbed those hills at Camp Pendleton and getting a cross to the top of them is no small challenge,” Perkins said. “But unfortunately, the greater challenge is to ensure that radical secularists do not crucify the freedoms won by these heroic efforts of the men and women who serve – on the cross of political correctness.”
Lt. Finnegan said it was unclear how long the investigation might take.
FOX News Talk
I was with Alpha Co 3rd Recon Bn and the filthy atheists are really going to be offended when they get to hell.
Folks no one is a former Marine, once a Marine always a Marine. It is hard to under stand why this kind of mess has to happen between the ranks. Are there any churches on the base? Do we have to remove them?
each camp has a chapel with multiple services to cater to all beliefs. and if the cross goes so should they
Atheist fags run facebook–that's why I give them only fake personal info when signing up.
To My Beloved Marines. Yes, I was stationed at Camp Pendleton, Ca for 4 years of my Nine years in the Marine Corps. This is a way to tear us apart. If we bow down to every person that thinks the WRONG WAY about what The Marine Corps believes in that is to Honor their Fallen Comrades. This is the way that Marines express their feelings. Camp Pendleton is private land and it has been leased by the Government for some time now. Why should an outsider come onto our Base and tell us what we can and can't do. Keep the Memorial up and get the others out of our Business. GOD, COUNTRY AND CORPS. One more thing before I leave, Jason Torpy you are not Allowed in My Marine Corps. Semper Fidelis to All. For all you people that say Happy Holidays, shame on you. Merry Christmas, Happy Thanksgiving and Happy New Year. In God we Trust. Always has been and always will.
~And saddened by this at the same time
"If we ever Forget that we are One Nation Under GOD, then we will be a Nation Gone Under." said Ronald Reagan.
we already did, when they took pledge allegiance to the flag out of schools its been a downward spiral ever since.
I wonder how many of you Christians would still support the idea if a bunch of Muslim marines decided to place a Muslim crescent to honor their fallen comrades?
go to new york and look around a dau
Mark Grimes What does that mean?
Nick Mollberg there symbols are every where
Mark Grimes On Private land, or public land?
I have walked those hills and I have left markers symbolizing my love for my brothers who have passed. I'm from 53 area Camp Horno and that monument has a special place in my heart.
Having said that, the cross up there is not a religious monument, and if you think that then you are ignorant. No one is at all allowed up there to practice religious rights, and if caught going up there with out proper approval can end with njp to as serious as a court marshal.
I get that other religions believe that the cross is being shoved in their face, but honestly I lived at that camp for 4 years and if you don't actually look for it, you can barely tell its there. how does that bother you so much that your going to disrespect our fallen brothers by removing it.
It is a complete shame that we have fought and risked our lives, for people to complain about about the monument. The government already passed that it is ok to protest at a military funeral what's next you guys want to spit on our faces as we walk off the buses after getting home from a 7 month deployment to?
If you want an atheist marking up by the cross that's fine, put on your hiking boots and carry that bitch up there.
This is a complete disgrace to the men and women who gave their life. And to those who risked theirs.
Funny thing is, I'm not christian, I don't really follow any religion, and the cross doesn't bother me at all, and how could it… its just a cross that sits on a hill.
Since when do the rights of atheists trump the rights of Christians? If they don't like it, then they should look away. Sick and tired of having to avoid offending atheists. I am happy to offend atheists any time, any place.
“The question is why government officials would allow this to happen,” Obviously, this person is unaware of the Constitution…"Congress shall make NO LAW RESPECTING the establishment of religion OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF!" In other words–hands of of citizens expressions of their beliefs.
I'm an atheist. Leave the cross alone. Tell this atheist group (and all the others) that it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. It is these people who offend me, not the symbols of religion about which they complain.
All you morons who are against this, need to seriously get a life. I am not a religious person, but it is what it is a MEMORIAL FOR FALLEN MARINES…THAT's ALL YOU IDIOTS NEED TO JUST LOOK AT IT AS.
SEMPER FI.
Unless the military prevents another religious group from doing something similar, there is no issue. The closest the constitution comes to separating "church and state" is the prevention of establishing an official religion ( as England had done) or giving preference.
Procedure and due process were used to crucify Christ. NOW those who do not believe want procedure and due process to put another cross up. I don't think those who have a belief will ever please those who want to push dis-belief. As a side note, I am a Marine (1963-1967) who is now a chaplain in a major trauma center. I am a Christian, my best friend there is a Jewish chaplain, One of my dearest cousins is a non-believer. Not one of us pushes our belief or dis-belief on the other. At the same time we each deeply respect the others feelings. I fully expect we will see each other in Heaven.
Atheists offend me. Can I find a lawyer to take my case? I didn't think so. If they can prove that the United States was founded on Atheism rather than the Bible, that would be a point for them. However, it wasn't, so, no points. Go back to the USSR.
As heated as the cross debate is becoming.. please remember that this is not a "story"… this is my life… this is "our lives"… our "Marine Corps lives" that we live with every day regardless if our Marine is alive/deceased, a Veteran, Injured; or if we're family members. Let us stand together to use this debate to inform civilians of "our Marine Corps" which has a blood line of loyalty and burden that runs deep within our veins. "They" are not aware because they don't live in our skin. Do not show your emotions on your sleeves with distain for their opposition… rather show them our loving loyalty to each other. It's not about religion… it's about "OUR Marine Corps lives".
What are we becoming? If the cross so offends people and what that represents and if the day every arrives where the morale and spirit of our Marines and armed forces deteriotes….We are very close to losing our country! I hope and pray people wake up before it is too late.
As a "former"Marine and someone who has served proudly in and out of combat, answer me this Mr A(SS)theist, why the f*%k do we say GOD. COUNTRY, CORPS? Jerkoff…
Once a Marine, always a Marine. Once God and country, always God and country.
This has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Camp Pendleton is NOT trying to create/control a church/religion. These men are honoring their heroes, our heroes. Get over it people! Put that cross up and leave it up!
Torpy , I don't and millions of Americans don't care what you like or dislike, So shove it up your azz you punk puke. Your worse then feces.
I keep waiting for one of these dorks to show me the "you have the RIGHT to not be offended" clause in the constitution.
Please let your voice be heard, visit this site that some of the family created to bring awareness to this issue!
http://tinyurl.com/88y63dp
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Keep-the-Camp-Pendleton-Cross/277662532271636?sk=wall&filter=1
I wouldn't say I'm an atheist but I'm not religious in the least bit. Still, when I was in the Army, we went to church on Sunday as a unit and no one complained at all. If this was a Jewish star I doubt that one 'Christian' would say a thing about it. We have freedom of religion in this country and I respect that. Its groups like these 'athiests' that are expoliting that for thier own political gain. If they were truely tolerant, peace loving, liberal people as they claim to be then they would see that this is not anything more than it is – a simple religious icon erected to honor thier fallen brothers. I'll put money down that if this was a Muslim symbol these atheists wouldn't be making such a big deal about it.
Dear Eric, please don't ruin my carefree, coffee-drinking, Nascar-watching, rainy-day bliss. I am not in the mood to get worked up over this. Amen.
hell we are unable to even respect the dead in this usa sad sad world. semper-fi fallen soldiers, I well pray for you and yours, god speed.
This is beyond rediculous. I know two marines that are memorilized on the top of that hill at that cross. I have climed that hill 3 times and it is no easy task. This cross deserves to be up there because it is a memorial for Marines who have died and not a mark of Christianity. I along with many other Marines will be offended by this cross coming down because of the memory it leaves for everyone of why it is really up there.
there is no exact saying in the constitution of separation, so his argument is null and void!
So why don't the Atheists climb a neighboring hill, erect a big Nothing, and call it even? Quick impression for you: "Oh noes! I see someone else having religion! That means they're oppressing me by restricting my freedom to prevent them from having religion! Call the ACLU!"
I totally agree Jerry. I'm a Christian myself, but I get so upset at other self proclaiming "Christians" who argue politically about "their right" for school prayer or Keeping God in the pledge of Allegiance, but the first time someone wants to erect a golden Buddha in Town Square or a young Muhammad rolls out a rug at "school prayer time" and faces east toward the sun and begins prayers to Allah, see how fast that 'freedom' changes. Freedom of religion is only free when the majority get what they want. There has Never been a truly honest separation of church and state. The christian churches have a very strong hold on government here. Its all other faiths or the lack thereof that have no voice
Atheist's won't do that because there is no hill to climb in the first place.
As an Atheist and a former US Army soldier, I find it offensive that these Marines would assume that it's ok to raise a Christian cross on a military used area to represent a monument toward our dead soldiers. Not every soldier is a Christian! When will this sink in in the military? Should we also put up many Pagan symbols for monuments as well? Were is the equal treatment? It's one thing to put it on headstones, it's completely different to use it as a monument that the US military is a Christian organization, that is not what our message should be. We are the land of the free, not the land of Christians. This is a struggle against Christians attempting to oppress others in the US Military with representing our monuments in a Christian viewpoint. This is a just movement against a suppressive majority that it's motivation is implement it's Christian symbols in our military institutions.
This is ridiculous! Regardless of what property it is, it is our fallen brothers and sisters. If WE all could I am pretty damn sure we would all throw up 1x a million of what we believe in would be more justice in honoring our fallen brothers and sisters. I'm stationed at Camp Pendleton and I say, if you don't want to see it THEN DON'T LOOK AT IT. It is not representing religion, would it be better if we put an big A@$ EGA in the center. How about a few names. Sounds like a whinefest to me. THANK YOU
Thank you to those Marines who made this, took the time and dedication with those families. Not in one sentence did I hear it say, we brought this "cross" up the hill for christian beliefs. NO! The actual reason is to honor our brothers and sisters. If you can't deal with it, then help make something for all supposed religions and be able to build to honor. Its not to disgrace a religion, ITS TO HONOR those who fought and died for our country, atleast give them the ability to show respect to them in any way they can since it hardly comes from anywhere else. Look at our society now, Veterans Day has become a day for shopping! Seriously! Urgh. Im absolutely disgusted with these people who think everything is about religion. Seriously get over it already with fighting over religion and who needs to be# 1.
We should call atheist vampires since they are so afraid of the cross.
I often wonder why some in our nation cow down to the ACLU or the Anti Christ League United.
As for most of us in America:- GOD BLESS THE USA!
The US Constitution grants freedom of religion…not freedom from religion. Those azzhat God-less individuals need to find something else to complain about!
Amen, John! While we're at it, should we shut down all chapels on military bases, which are symblos of religious beliefs? Also, I seem to recall that the military branches allow chaplains of all beliefs to take up residence on military posts, AND to conduct worship services. It would be interesting to know if any of these so-called combat veteran atheist complainers were REALLY atheists in their foxholes when the s#$@ hit the fan!
John, as someone who personally hiked to that cross with families from 3/1 after we got back I can assure you the Marines will just put up another one if they take that one away. It's truly a humbling place to visit, and u agree they need to focus their efforts elsewhere
I agree* stupid iPhone! Or perhaps stupid iPhone operator (me!)
What's wrong is that 'separation of church and state' is not in the Constitution. The separation is that the government cannot not tell us how to worship, as they have been doing. If putting a cross up is a Christian's way of a memorial, then why should a non-religious person's wishes rule? The separation is only for Christians, not Muslims, other religious beliefs or non-Christians!
What's wrong is that 'separation of church and state' is not in the Constitution. The separation is that the government cannot not tell us how to worship, as they have been doing. If putting a cross up is a Christian's way of a memorial, then why should a non-religious person's wishes rule? The separation is only for Christians, not Muslims, other religious beliefs or non-Christians!
Congress has made no law forcing everyone to be a christian yet Jason Torpy wants to use the federal goverment to prohibit the free excercise thereof , or abridging the free speech of these Marines who are honoring their fallen comrades & establish the religion of Atheistism. It amazes me how 200 hundred years later we use the courts to change or rewrite what the founding fathers intents were. The 1st act of Congress was to create a Chaplain for the House of Representatives & a Chaplain for the Senate to open & close the sessions with prayer. They excercised their religion everyday in goverment functions & in schools. They did not force anyone to participate nor would they have allowed people like Jason Torpy to deny their right to express themselves. They knew the Constitution better than any judge of today.
Well said Mark Rhodes. It saddens me that the cross is offensive. We are one Nation under God, with Liberty & Justice for All. God Bless our Military. Proud Navy family.
I am about 99% sure that Camp Pendleton is in fact private property that is LEASED to the federal government. That being said, this individual's claim that the cross should be on private property is a moot point.
Has any one ever read the Jefferson Bible? Also called " The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".
Below is a portion of Jefferson's letter on separation of church and state. The full text can be found on David Barton's webpage: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123.
David Barton has devoted his life to both learning and educating us on the deep Christianity of our founding fathers.
Jefferson had committed himself as President to pursuing the purpose of the First Amendment: preventing the "establishment of a particular form of Christianity" by the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination.
Since this was Jefferson's view concerning religious expression, in his short and polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; that the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the federal government. As he explained:
Gentlemen, – The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction…. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association assurances of my high respect and esteem. [9]
Jefferson's reference to "natural rights" invoked an important legal phrase which was part of the rhetoric of that day and which reaffirmed his belief that religious liberties were inalienable rights. While the phrase "natural rights" communicated much to people then, to most citizens today those words mean little.
By definition, "natural rights" included "that which the Books of the Law and the Gospel do contain." [10] That is, "natural rights" incorporated what God Himself had guaranteed to man in the Scriptures. Thus, when Jefferson assured the Baptists that by following their "natural rights" they would violate no social duty, he was affirming to them that the free exercise of religion was their inalienable God-given right and therefore was protected from federal regulation or interference.
So clearly did Jefferson understand the Source of America's inalienable rights that he even doubted whether America could survive if we ever lost that knowledge. He queried:
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have lost the only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? [11]
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123
Let me start off with saying I am atheist and that I do not oppose this representation of honoring our fallen heroes.i do not believe in god however I do believe in rights and freedom this is a matter of sensitivity and that should have been dealt with means of reason and respect and not paraded on social media. I'm offended as should you that this topic is the reason I'm remembering the lives of these Marines and what this memorial is intended to represent, and for that I apologize and I'm sorry. its so easy for all of you Theist or not to quote mine the words of wise men to suit your debate or reference a document as old as this country to amend your point on complex issues of today that the Constitution isn't equipped to handle. I challenge you to think for yourself using reason instead of regurgitating ridiculous phrases like," an atheist has beliefs in nothing, there is much more “nothing” displayed than there are signs of Christianity."is childish and counter productive to freedom of religion, something our Religious founding fathers wrote as law.an Atheists lack of belief in God is not a lack in beliefs. Ignorance of that sort offends me as well, educate yourself. Atheism is a religion just one that doesn't have a Theist view. I know this country was founded by people who believe in god and there for has become a part of our history if you don't understand religion then you cannot understand our history and our reasons. So I say again reason and respect are everyone's Rights like the claim to the air we breathe, this is the underlying topic everybody is getting away from. if you take out religion at the end of the day is what the Military Inspection should conclude its decision on. I believe and have faith our Corps will Honor and Remember these Marine Heroes in a manner that we and even they can all be proud of, whether a cross or some other symbol. if the Marines were of Faith give them their respect in choosing the Cross in the absence of a replacement monument that the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers neglected to donate in honoring these Heroes.
I traveled to that cross to pay my respects to MY LITTLE BROTHER, and I had a number of marines and corpsman with me…..and as I climbed to the top of that hill and saw the others who have gone on before him….I thought of those other families and friends, brothers, sons, daughters, sisters, fathers, mothers, Marines, Sailors, thought of them all! I held the tokens left for the fallen, felt the pain, mourned my loss, morned their loss, and in doing so I took to heart the reasons why we are the finest fighting force in history….WE TAKE PERSONAL PRIDE IN BUILDING MEMORIALS FOR OUR FALLEN, IN REMEMBERING THEIR NAMES, IN GIVING THOSE WHO FOLLOW US IN HISTORY SOMETHING TANGIBLE, SOMETHING THAT MAY MELLOW THE PAIN, AND SOMETHING TO ENSURE WE NEVER FORGET THOSE WHO PAY THE ULTIMATE PRICE! Taking that cross down is the same as walking into Houston National Cemetary and defacing my brothers grave.
The cross is a symbol of hope for Christians. It's about the resurrection and the knowledge that they will be reunited with those who have gone before. Christ overcame death. If others want to raise symbols of their faith there I'm sure that would be fine. The separation of church and state was NOT intended to strike religion from government. It was and is intended to prevent state-sponsored religion which the founders had escaped. And why is it that atheists feel the need to force their faith on everyone else? And yes, it is a faith. If all is removed then that is a symbol of the atheists in this case. Atheists really should get educated on the intent of the founders of this nation. If you're an atheist maybe you should get an education…
i dont think our forefathers who did indeed frame the country intended for athiests to be allowed to push there lack of faith on us, for them to do that goes as much against the constitution as religious persecution!
freedom of religon! not freedom to push your lack there of!!
God Jerry I just love ya! very very well said!