Mar 1, 2012
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The University of North Carolina-Greensboro has ordered a Christian club to allow non-Christians as leaders and members, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday.
“The university has given itself the authority to determine whether a group is religious or not,” said Jeremy Tedesco, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund.
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Tedesco filed suit on behalf of “Make Up Your Own Mind,” a Christian club that was denied an exemption from the university’s nondiscrimination policy.
UNC-Greensboro’s nondiscrimination policy includes an exemption for student organizations that select their members based on a shared set of beliefs.
Tedesco said “Make Up Your Own Mind” has a clear religious mission and purpose and requires its members and leaders to agree with its statement of faith and beliefs about the value of innocent human life.
“Saying that a Christian club isn’t religious is flatly absurd, especially when the university has granted its belief-based exception to numerous other clubs,” he said. “The First Amendment forbids the government from determining what is and what is not ‘religious,’ yet the university is doing exactly this by telling a Christian group that it is not religious.”
However, the university contends that the club is not affiliated with a church – and therefore doesn’t meet their criteria for exemption.
A university spokesperson told Fox News they had not seen the lawsuit and would not comment.
“It’s not discrimination for a religious group to say we want to be led by people who agree with our religion,” Tedesco said.
He said religious groups are getting excluded under non-discrimination policies.
“What we are seeing on public university campuses is religious groups routinely getting denied recognition,” he said. “They are denied access to a speech forum that is opened to all other student organizations on campus.”
The university, Tedesco said, must be stopped.
“We should get very nervous when the government decides it has the authority to determine what is and what isn’t religious,” he said. “That’s a dangerous concept.
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In addition to flat out violating first amendment rights, the University of North Carolina – Greensboro is stuck on stupid. Is their student Islamic club now required to have Jewish leaders and members?
no you douchetard… but they are required to admit them.
Bailey Bednar why? – because it's politically correct? Use reason in your arguement and namecalling just defeats your argument
Bailey Bednar Thank you for revealing your intellectual grasp. The fact that any group of any kind is required to admit as members those who are fundamentally opposed to the most basic beliefs of the group is a violation of freedom of conscience. The fact that the university was unwilling to oppose such a flagrant abuse of constitutional rights is outrageous. And I will put my several graduate degrees, my several years as a college instructor, and my lifetime teaching certification up against your logic any day, sir.
Ok aside from the juvenile verbiage, explain the difference in being required to admit Jewish members / leaders, and being "required to have" them because I don't see the distinction.
Bailey Bednar You should be admitted to the Moron Club
Laird Dale Baldwin It isn't the fact they are required to admit them as members but the fact they are forced to admit them as leaders. I would be stupid to think I should be able to walk into a Jewish or Muslim religious organization and not be required to share their beliefs to be in their leadership. As a religious organization I would assume they would admit anyone into their group.
An Islamic or Jewish club are most probably affiliated with a specific church, So they qualify to discriminate based on religion. The University say the group in question has no church affiliation, thus can not discriminate.
If they received state funds (i.e. public money) why should they be allowed to discriminate? If you want to selectively allow people to join or not, then don't accept tax pay dollars.
I find it ridiculous to think a student would have to pay into these things (as a tax-payer and through student fees at a PUBLIC university) then be told they can't attend because of their religion.
Bailey Bednar It is one thing to have no idea what the issues are, Bailey. It is another to advertise your ignorance and lack of respect for yourself or others.
It's getting crazy out there! Regardless of the biblical foundation America was founded upon, I am of the strong opinion that it is no longer "Christian" in any sense of the word. So these types of things are expected. It will get worse unless a revival on the magnitude of the 18th century takes place.
Bailey Bednar "douchetard"? Now that's intelligent. Typical liberal. Rather than debate the issue at hand, simply resort to gutter insults. You make me ill.
Laird Dale Baldwin Typical Liberal Imbecile
Christy Williams-Guzman they aren't asking for government money just the right to organize on campus
Bailey Bednar Sniped!
Bailey Bednar, shouldn't you be occupying some urinal in some public square?
Laird Dale Baldwin – Unfortunately the US if filled with sick and demented idiots and we have to waste our time dealing with these outcasts. Against my better judgement I must say that it would have been better if people like this were never born.
Daniel Gleason Student mandatory fees come from tax pay dollars and fees from the college…at a state school, that's how groups are funded. They may not ask for it (but they do!) but they USE state funds…PUBLIC funds. If you take state funds, you can't discriminate. I work at a college and am VERY familiar with how clubs and organizations get money. If you want to limit who can join your group, don't accept the funds…simple as that.
well bailey your comment says everything about you
Bailey Bednar What?? Is that even a response?
Christy Williams-Guzman you can't be this foolish. What do you think a college club is about? It's about like-minded, and like-thinking people, together, forming a club. Don't get me wrong. I don't think public colleges should fund any of these clubs, but they do, and because they do, they need to be consistent. If we use your logic a Gay/Lesbian club, would be forced to include people who hate the idea of Gay/Lesbians. Hmm, that messes up your little argument now doesn't it?
Laird Dale Baldwin Do you need an ashtray to put out that douchetard Bailey Bednar now that you've smoked him?- lol
Christy Williams-Guzman – They are not limiting who can join the group, they just want leaders who share their beliefs. It's a leadership issue, not a membership issue.
Christy Williams-Guzman – They are not limiting who can join the group, they just want leaders who share their beliefs. It's a leadership issue, not a membership issue.
Bailey Bednar EAT IT! AND DON'T FORGET TO DOUCHE YOURSELF!
aw, c'mon, we all know that these restrictions will only apply to Christian groups.
Tony Banke That's all that lefties understand: berating and denegration en lieu of civil discourse and intellectual disagreement. The arguments are vacuous, which is why, whenever you get into a debate/argument with one, within less than 5 minutes they've started with the namecalling, the -ists and the -isms. Intellectually, they're 5-year-olds. The democrat party is the party of the petulant pre-teen in terms of mentality.
Bailey Bednar Hey libtard, it is a Christian club, they are forcing them to have non Christian leaders, that is a violation of the Constitution, something liberals don't understand though.
Laird Dale Baldwin Tell em like it is Laird!!!
Actually it is a violation of the First Amend. right to peaceful assembly. Something Muslims have not mastered yet.
Bailey Bednar just as stupid
Actually, only the Congress of the United States can violate the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Bailey Bednar Ummm douchebag if they are members of the club they can run for office. Nothing is stopping them why are you lying?
Bailey Bednar , we need not listen to those who immediately use only derogatory language to hide their stupidity from others. This is also why the Left cannot get many listeners to actually have an intelligent and informative conversation with them on Talk Radio, since then the listeners can challenge the ignorance, evil and stupidity of their arguments and actions. The truly smart ones are evil and the truly stupid ones could be both.
Bailey Bednar the only reason they won't be required to have Jewish, or Christian, leaders is because political correctness supports them. This is like that judge in Indiana (now a Circuit Court of Appeals judge, just one level below the Supreme Court) who ruled that it wasn't a First Amendment violation if an imam led a prayer at a public event but would be if a pastor did.
Christy Williams-Guzman If the school allows another religion to have an exclusive membership, then the school must allow the Christian group the same right.
"UNC-Greensboro’s nondiscrimination policy includes an exemption for student organizations that select their members based on a shared set of beliefs." The school violates its own policy in banning the Christian club (whose members have a shared set of beliefs).
Laird Dale Baldwin Well said Mr Baldwin.
Laird Dale Baldwin -with you sir!!!!
Christy Williams-Guzman "If they received state funds (i.e. public money) why should they be allowed to discriminate?"
Well, there's this thing called the First Amendment. You might want to look it up sometime. The part you might want to take special notice of is the part about "…nor prohibit the free expression thereof." It does NOT say,"unless it's a club existing as a part of an institution of higher learning which takes tax dollars."
Tony Banke of course you don't see the distinction. You are obviously a product of the modern public educational system. I'll re-pephrase the original question since you are incapable of understanding it; "Is their Islamic club now required to 'allow' Jewish leaders?"
This is the same nonsense that has excluded Campus Bible Fellowship from the campus of Wright State University and other Christian groups at schools like Vanderbilt. Pollitically correct "Tolerance" is extremely one-sided. Pray that the US Supreme Court will agree to hear a pending case involving this issue at Long Beach State University.
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/muslims-want-catholic-school-to-provide-room-without-crosses.html
Christy Williams-Guzman Deh-deh-deh… It… is… a… C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N C-L-U-B! repeat that to yourself 50 times you stupid piece of brainless shit!
Christy Williams-Guzman Since when do the clubs receive taxpayer's money? Your argument lacks thought.
Christy Williams-Guzman the same way it is absurd that my tax dollars should be used to pay for abortions.
Then the non Christian leader will sue the club for mentioning Christ and some brain dead lawyer will take the case and sume judge will actually hear the case.
They should be able to mention Christ, as well as any other fictional character they like. Oh and talking about fictional, they may as well teach Global Warming.
Woohoo, 501(c)(3) wins again.
hey tool, has nothing to do with being a tax exempt organization. Woohoo!
501(c)(3)? You mean that unconstitutional tax "exemption" for organizations such as churches who need no special "exemption" under the first amendment? Perhaps all government money should be witheld from UNC until they stop discriminating against religious orgs.
You, my friend, must have graduated from North Carolina-Greensboro!
Andrwe Scharbarth: Wow, stupid, ugly, and live in Wisconsin. You sure lost the life lottery.
Andrew Scharbarth: I'm sure you do "live" it.
I just hope any "Christian" club isn't just a front for people who foment anti-gay and anti-semitism.
Do people not see that using his argument that the school should not recognize ANY exemptions based on religion?
“The First Amendment forbids the government from determining what is and what is not ‘religious,’ yet the.
university is doing exactly this by telling a Christian group that it is not religious.”.
Using that logic government should give NO exemptions to religious groups because they should not categorize groups based on religious.
You do realize he is saying that it should be the groups choice, not the government's or the university's? So I think you need to broaden your comprehension and realize he is simply stating it isn't for you (who are not part of my group) to decide anything about my group. And certainly christian and muslim don't have the same beliefs. You can be christian without be affiliated to a church.
Kevin Mathew Blak YOur missing the point. Christian groups are being told that they cannot be a Christian Group. The University is a governmental orgnaization. Government cannot dictate what religios groups can or cannot do. In case you have not noticed, there is a plethora of attacks on religion, going on in this country. I suspect you have no problem with that.
George Steele The university is not a governmental organization. The university is a private institution. If that group gets their funding from the school (more than likely), then the school can put whatever stipulations they want on what clubs have to do to get that money.
Personally, I don't think there should be any sort of exemptions for school clubs. They should all be treated the same.
The university just said that the club can't make it a requirement that someone have a certain religion to hold a leadership position in the club. No one said that the members of the club HAVE to vote for those people. Religion just can't be a requirement to hold an office in an official school club.
As far as attacks on religion, that's just ridiculous. There are many attacks FROM religion against people who are not religious, in the form of trying to use the government to force their beliefs on everyone.
George Steele The university is not a governmental organization. The university is a private institution. If that group gets their funding from the school (more than likely), then the school can put whatever stipulations they want on what clubs have to do to get that money.
Personally, I don't think there should be any sort of exemptions for school clubs. They should all be treated the same.
The university just said that the club can't make it a requirement that someone have a certain religion to hold a leadership position in the club. No one said that the members of the club HAVE to vote for those people. Religion just can't be a requirement to hold an office in an official school club.
As far as attacks on religion, that's just ridiculous. There are many attacks FROM religion against people who are not religious, in the form of trying to use the government to force their beliefs on everyone.
Joshua Mann now you are being a fool. No religion tries to force conversion. You like most athiests, have re-interpreted the First Amendment to give you a right, not to be exposed to the existence of religion, even at the expense of eroding the rights to practice that religion. Give you an old example: IN 1979, renowned athiest, Madeline O'Hare, filed suit to block Pope John Paul from saying mass on the Washington Mall. Now, I was in that crowd, and it was a crowd, and no one was forced to be there. If you care to name any mainstream religion forcing people to convert, by all means do so.
George Steele Well, there's the Muslims in the middle-east for one. That one is pretty clear. Also, there are plenty of Christians in this country trying to force conversions. Maybe it's not so clear as the Muslims of the middle-east, but it's happening.
We just had a debacle with the prayer banner in a public school in RI. Christians trying to force their religion into public schools doesn't help your cause there, George. How about Christians trying to force public courts to hang their 10 commandments on the walls? Why else would Christians find that necessary if not trying to convert?
There are millions of gays in this country that would like to marry each other, but Christians try to push their religion into the government to prevent these people from doing so. These are Americans in the land of the free. As far as the government goes, marriage is nothing more than a contract between two people who join their assets together and have new tax laws that apply to them. What's the big deal with this? Why does it matter if two people that care about each other want to get married? Well, apparently it's against your religious book, so therefore no one, even those who don't follow your fairy tales, should be allowed to marry someone of the same gender, whether or not they have lived together as a couple for years and years.
Joshua Mann I will give you Muslims in the Middle East, but I was refering to Americans. As far as your examples, you are indeed confused. You confuse the public expression of religion with the force conversion of it. That is because yo believe that you have a right to be free from mention of religion, something the First Amendment was not addressing. You actually make my point. As far as Gay Marriage, there is no constitutional right to have governmental recognition of it, any more than there is a constitutional right to require governmental recognition of heterosexual marriage. Few are pushing for banning homosexual relationships; only government recognition of them. That does not get you to religion forcing its way into people's lives, unless you view the Constitution as granting you the right to shield you from having to see any religious expression, even at the expense of curtailing the right to practice a religion. I kind of have the idea that if the government were to ban religion, you would not object.
Joshua Mann I will give you Muslims in the Middle East, but I was refering to Americans. As far as your examples, you are indeed confused. You confuse the public expression of religion with the force conversion of it. That is because yo believe that you have a right to be free from mention of religion, something the First Amendment was not addressing. You actually make my point. As far as Gay Marriage, there is no constitutional right to have governmental recognition of it, any more than there is a constitutional right to require governmental recognition of heterosexual marriage. Few are pushing for banning homosexual relationships; only government recognition of them. That does not get you to religion forcing its way into people's lives, unless you view the Constitution as granting you the right to shield you from having to see any religious expression, even at the expense of curtailing the right to practice a religion. I kind of have the idea that if the government were to ban religion, you would not object.
George Steele How did I prove your point?
Yes, there is no requirement for the government to recognize heterosexual relationships, but they do. Isn't this the land where all men are created equal? Those who are fighting against the government recognition of homosexual marriage obviously do not believe in equal rights for all. The VAST majority of those fighting against it are Christians and doing so because they feel it's against their religion. Those fighting against homosexual marriage also do not want them to be in relationships with each other.
Atheist do not care about people mentioning a god in public. Scream it at the top of your voice if you want. You're more than welcome to decorate your entire house in crosses and paint a big Jesus on your roof it that's what you want. You can rent billboard space and put your message there as well. That's fine. That's private property.
However, you do not have the right to force your religion into publicly owned space such as public schools or courthouses. Christians try this constantly and when it doesn't work, they say that their religion is under attack. Christians, you're not the victim. Stop trying to play that card.
I spent four years in the Marine Corps defending the U.S. Constitution and I will stand beside you anytime your right to religion is legitimately under attack. I would love to see a day when all religion is cast aside in favor of logic and reasoning, but I do not want that to happen because our government is forcing it. I want people to come to the realization themselves. I do not agree with religion, but I fully support the right to practice it. The right to practice that religion does not mean the right to put that religion into every crook and cranny of society.
If you would take the time to talk to Atheists, you will find that most of them feel the same way I do. We're firm believers in the separation of church and state, and that includes keeping the state out of religion. For example, I am an Atheist, but I do not like this contraception mandate that requires religious employers to do things that go against their religion. Catholics have been against contraception for some time now. I think if someone decides they want contraception, they should pay for it themselves. Why should an insurance company cover something like that?
George Steele I agree that the issue is exposure and not force conversion, but even though I am still Christian I am divided on the issue. As Christians we are in the majority so for the most part the symbols or passages are from the Bible which poses no problems for us. However, lets just say that Christianity was in the minority and we had images of some tentacle monster god in schools. I can't say for certain how I would handle the situation, but I bet a part of me would want them to be taken down.
Tanner Sledge As well it should be taken down. I don't think Christians should be putting their messages in public schools, and I don't think Atheists should be either. Schools, courthouses, and all other publicly owned land should remain completely neutral on this issue. There's plenty of space in the private sector to be used for messages and such.
Tanner Sledge as long I was not forced to worship your tentacled monster, I would not make an issue of it. If we were forced to pray to this god, I would be on the side of those challenging it. If people were seeking to put the image up in a public school, where it had not been before, I would oppose it. The problem is the lengths we are going to remove any mention of God in public. There was a story that I remember about a city in California, that removed the cross and images of the missiion from the city seal. What is wrong with that? The city seal depicted how the area was settled by the Europeans, namely it started as a Catholic mission. The city government was seeking to erase that history in the name of secularism.
Tanner Sledge as long I was not forced to worship your tentacled monster, I would not make an issue of it. If we were forced to pray to this god, I would be on the side of those challenging it. If people were seeking to put the image up in a public school, where it had not been before, I would oppose it. The problem is the lengths we are going to remove any mention of God in public. There was a story that I remember about a city in California, that removed the cross and images of the missiion from the city seal. What is wrong with that? The city seal depicted how the area was settled by the Europeans, namely it started as a Catholic mission. The city government was seeking to erase that history in the name of secularism.
Brian Goralczyk A church is not a building, but it's a gathering of believers who believe in the resurrection of Jesus and the Kingdom of God, the creator of all life. Jesus talked about His Kingdom and what it's like and what it looks like.
Angel Robledo Jr.
That is what I saw as being the problem in this lawsuit. It seems they told them that they were not affiliated with any church therefore they didn't have standing. But there is no Church but the body of believers, right? So they were actually the Church just by their gathering together.
Joshua Mann the government does recognize heterosexual couples and if they wanted to, they can recognize homosexual marriage as well. That has nothing to do with religion intruding itself into people's lives. A church is free to say what it believes as wrong; people on your side of the fence view a religion saying something you do not like, as persecution. It is extremely abusrd.
George Steele Yes, I completely agree that a church has the right to speak out against the things that they don't believe in. However, the attacks come when this same church seeks to not only disagree with the idea but also prevent anyone from performing the activity through law. Many Christians seek a Constitutional amendment declaring that marriage is between one man and one woman for the sole purpose of preventing homosexuals from having the same rights as heterosexuals. The more you try to deny it, the more ridiculous you appear.
Christians are the ones who think they're being persecuted every time they are forced to follow the same laws as everyone else. When this doesn't work, they scream and cry that rights they don't even have are being violated. Christians think that just because their religion is the the majority (currently, but that's declining rapidly), they are supposed to get special rights and privileges. They constantly spew lies that they have either heard other Christians say or heard from their preacher. For example, Christians constantly state that this is a nation founded on Christianity which just is not the case. If that was the case, then our Constitution, the document that actually establishes this nation, would say so. It does not.
Whenever Christians do things like this and try to force their religion into the public square (public schools and courthouses) they only come off as bullies. You think it helps your religion, but it does the opposite. Sure, everything seems fine to you because you are Christian, but that's not the way it comes across to those you are trying to convert. Not only that, but the actions of many Christians are starting to make other Christians question whether or not they want to be associated with Christianity anymore.
The fact is, the younger generations of Americans are leaving religion in droves as they begin to use logic and reasoning and start thinking for themselves. The Atheist/Agnostic group has doubled in numbers since 1990. Enjoy your time as the majority. Your days are numbered.
Joshua Mann a church has the right to speak its beliefs, poarticularly when those beliefs intersect with a law. I believe Pastor Bonhoeffer spoke out, in the name of God, against Nazi persecutions, even though German law at the time alowed them. Was Pastor Bonhoeffer persecuting and oppressing non-believers?
Joshua Mann as we speak right now, our government is trying to force the Catholic into paying for things it finds sinful.
George Steele Speaking out is one thing. That's freedom of speech. Seeking laws to prevent something that they just don't believe in is something completely different. Besides, we're not talking about Nazi Germany. We're talking about America as you pointed out when talking about my Muslims in the middle-east comment.
George Steele Read Jeremy Todescos final point: “We should get very nervous when the government decides it has the authority to determine what is and what isn’t religious,” he said. “That’s a dangerous concept." By that logic the government (i.e. the University) should not give be declaring one group or an other as religious. All campus organizations should be held to the exact same rules established by the administration. Be they secular, atheist, Christian, Islamic or otherwise. The first amazement was designed to protect the government and the people from the church. Not the other way around.
Kevin Matthew Bak The university is not the government. The university is a private institution. They can set whatever rules they want concerning clubs at their school.
George, as I said before, I completely disagree with the mandate to make religious employers pay for contraception that they are very obviously against. I personally don't think insurance companies should be forced to pay for contraception. If people want to have sex and reduce the risk of pregnancy and disease, then they need to take the proper precautions themselves.
I believe if the Catholic church takes this to court, then they will win.
Joshua Mann , The university is a public entity. Where did you get it's not public – look it up.
Kevin Matthew Bak the First Amendment was not enacted to protect people from the church. I would suggest you review history. The First Amendment was enacted to protect people from Governmental intrusions into their lives and singled out religious liberty. Leftists are trying to rewrite the First Amendment to exclude religion from public notice. You illustrate the the deluded thinking, where the First Amendment was there to have government protect people from churches. It is pathetic.
Joshua Mann the University is a government institution, not private. YOu need to look up your facts more.
Is this truly surprising to anybody? Those of faith know what's coming and those without should see the writing on the wall.
Thank you, Pamela – and that's the truth, we ALL have been warned of our future:) I choose Jesus!
While this is true Pamela, and while we aren't surprised, we shouldn't necessarily assume that what's coming is now here. If we do, we might actually be slipping into a form of Christian "fatalism" that isn't very helpful. Resistance is not futile.
Good point David. I didn't mean to sound as if we are doomed. I certainly don't know God's timeline, but there have been too many wake-up calls for us to ignore what is going on.
Pamela Carroll If this marxist steals another selection, I might disagree wtih you too, and I'm not really a religous person, but I do know what the regressives are doing.
this is rediculous. Next the courts will say we can have an atheist Pope, or a Republican President.
I always thought the Catholic church considered the pope God.
Nate Dumond – They consider him a representative of God. Not God Himself.
A republican President will be a MASSIVE improvement over the Socialist one YOU have now. He isn't MY president!
Nate Dumond They do, but other churches think that jesus is god too, which is just as silly
Nate Dumond misinformation As usually – FYI Pope isn't considered God – Just a stewart of his church
you tellem GOMER
Tony Banke Yeah an INFALLIBLE stewart……which makes him apparently the only human with super powers.
Nate Dumond No not God, Bishop of Rome, its the liberals who think Obama is Messiah..
Nate Dumond, no the pope s not God, just his representative, I was Catholic once, i at least learned that much.
George Pyle – yeah i was just goof'n. i vote for the person – not the party.
George Pyle Yeah, Obama is your president. You may not have voted for him, but he's still your president. He signs bills into law in your country everyday. I didn't vote for the man, but he is the president. Maybe we won't have to deal with him anymore after this next election.
George Pyle Yeah, Obama is your president. You may not have voted for him, but he's still your president. He signs bills into law in your country everyday. I didn't vote for the man, but he is the president. Maybe we won't have to deal with him anymore after this next election.
i suppose 4 more years of stupid would be the best. for you maybe, not for the interest of me or mine.
ovomit what a moron, he got into office by the use of lies and deceit all done by the dumbocrat party.
It would be interesting to keep the courts out of the elections. It was odd when they tried to steel the florida vote saying only democrats were ignorant enough to not punch cards correctly. Luckily a higher court didn't buy it!
Nate Dumond you're not serious, right?
Russ Patchin – Gomer?, That was original, come up with something new. Yawn!
i see a serious flaw in your security…random people who are not your friend should not have access to write whatever they want on your wall especially since you take the time to "hide" your wife from strangers eyes you could at least disable this function…
i see a serious flaw in your security…random people who are not your friend should not have access to write whatever they want on your wall especially since you take the time to "hide" your wife from strangers eyes you could at least disable this function…
cause as far as i can see…not being your friend and all you appear single…no wife listed…just saying, you took the time to hide that why not the rest….
cause as far as i can see…not being your friend and all you appear single…no wife listed…just saying, you took the time to hide that why not the rest….
i agree with emma…im seeing the same thing….funny stuff
i agree with emma…im seeing the same thing….funny stuff
it's true tyler he obviously cares more about "hiding" who his wife is than the threat that random strangers can speak their mind on his page…my bet is this is about his ex girlfriend kate…..god forbid she knew he was married….
it's true tyler he obviously cares more about "hiding" who his wife is than the threat that random strangers can speak their mind on his page…my bet is this is about his ex girlfriend kate…..god forbid she knew he was married….
makes sense…considering all i can see is pics of him…none of the pics of his wife or children are public…certainly weird….for one to take the time to try so hard to hide they are married with 2 kids but not bother to block random people who arent even their friends to write all over their wall….this is hilarious….
makes sense…considering all i can see is pics of him…none of the pics of his wife or children are public…certainly weird….for one to take the time to try so hard to hide they are married with 2 kids but not bother to block random people who arent even their friends to write all over their wall….this is hilarious….
PENIS
PENIS
LMAO
LMAO
WOW mike you are fucked up
HAHAHAHAHA….this made my day…i feel much better
TROLL
The right to assemble and the freedom of religion are foundations in America. How can a university force people to assemble? That is soooooo extreme. People can not even go to church and sing hymns without having some vicious authority breathing down their necks. People are messed up.
The right to assemble and the freedom of religion are foundations in America. How can a university force people to assemble? That is soooooo extreme. People can not even go to church and sing hymns without having some vicious authority breathing down their necks. People are messed up.
Isn't Socialisim wonderful?
George Pyle – Unfortunately, socialism eventually evolves into communism and always seeks to crush religious freedom through "enlightenment" and "education".
David Bannasch And may I remind you that even the early Christian church tried communism. It failed quickly and miserably. Reason: what the Church would call Original Sin, faithless fear of the future.
John Ericksen you've swallowed the liberal line that the early Church "tried communism" which is not historically or contextually factual. The mutual sharing of possessions (Acts 2:44,45) was (1) voluntary not state dictated, (2) a temporary action never meant to continue, and (3) NEVER propagated as a defined doctrine in the New Testament. You need to be reminded that the Apostle Paul wrote that the man (who was able to work) and did not work, should not eat. So much for your bad assumption.
John Ericksen It was not communism: it was Christian sharing and no one was told what they had to do. They followed Christ's teachings. It did not fail. It converted the mighty Roman Empire to Christianity and spead accross the world. Learn your history and them maybe you are entitled to comment…as is, you are ignorant.
David Bannasch The regressives god, marx stated, burrow into the churches, the family, the school, the media and spread the poison. It sure looks like this has happened in my life time.
Call it the Christian Make Up you Own Mind and they would be ok. The problem is that there are non-Christians that don't believe in abortion and they would be discriminated against.
Your argument is so lame.
It is not a lame argument. Is "Make Up Your Own Mind" necessarily a Christian organization? How so? Just because the current leadership is Christian? According to the article, "MUYOWM" is not affiliated with the church. Therefore — no matter what its leadership's personal beliefs — the organization itself is not a Christian organization.
If it were, then it would fall under the exemption that the University allows. Since I agree with the University's position that "MUYOWM" is not necessarily a Christian organization, then I don't see anything wrong with what the University is doing.
Assuming that what is being reported is factual, then people are seeing "discrimination" against the group's "Christianity" when there is no group Christianity to begin with.
Roger Navarro Your argument would hold weight if when it filed with the University it hadn't applied under a religious organization. There are a lot of religious organizations not backed by a certain church, thus non-denominational. I realize not all the facts are in this one article but you can look up the lawsuit filing.
Daniel Gleason, I will agree with you on your point. But I have to clarify your point, if I may. If the group filed as a CHRISTIAN organization, and if the University accepted the filing as legitimate, then I would agree with you that the University is in the wrong.
From the wording of the article, the group has a "clear religious mission" — which does not equate to a "clear Christian mission". Tedesco jumps from stating that MUYOWM requires its members and leaders to "agree with its statement of faith and beliefs about the value of innocent human life" immediately to saying that it is a "Christian club".
The University allows the exemption for clubs selecting their members based on a shared set of beliefs. Since MUYOWM is an organization dedicated to concentrating on the abortion issue, is that "shared set of beliefs" the belief in the Right To Life or the belief in Christianity's tenets as applied to the abortion argument? Does MUYOWM's "statement of faith and beliefs" include a statement of allegiance to the Christian faith or just a statement of solidarity on the Right To Life position?
It all depends on how MUYOWM defined itself in its filing with the University, I agree. Do you know the answers to the questions I posed above?
Roger Navarro they applied under religious status not a pro life status. Since a commonly held position of most religious organizations is pro abortion it would not be uncommon for any religious organization to require someone to follow this tenant. We reasonably assume if I wanted to join the young men Christian association that I would be accepted but in the reverse if I wanted to join a women's club that I would not be accepted. Since there are clubs that only allow females and that is a form of discrimination shouldn't they be unfunded and stopped from being on campus? I argue not. As long as each religious organization is allowed to follow their beliefs and I don't request that Muslims allow me to be in leadership that all is equal. I don't believe I have any right to walk up and demand acceptance into a Muslim leadership position when I clearly don't believe what they do. I feel I have the right to join the group as long as I am not stopping them from their business, but leadership no. If I formed my beliefs to their religion later then I should be allowed in their leadership but that's down the road.
Daniel Gleason Again I ask you, did they apply under CHRISTIAN status or just RELIGIOUS status. All you're telling me is that they applied under "religious" status.
"Religious" does not equate to "Christian" wouldn't you agree? How do you define religious? How do the laws define religious? If you agree that "religious" does not absolutely equate to "Christian", then you also must agree that a club based on "religious" beliefs must not REQUIRE its members to necessarily have CHRISTIAN religious beliefs.
I am 100% in favor of Christian organizations requiring its leaders to be Christians. I am 100% against "religious" organizations requiring its leaders to be Christians.
If the University accepted the organization's "statement of faith and beliefs" as having some kind of Christian requirement, THEN the University is contradicting itself with its current actions. But does MUYOM's statement of faith and beliefs include that requirement? If the answer is yes, then I'm totally with you, Daniel Gleason.
Call it the Christian Make Up you Own Mind and they would be ok. The problem is that there are non-Christians that don't believe in abortion and they would be discriminated against.
Similar issues are happening at Vanderbilt University.
in addition- Legal residents told to accept illegal. Don't you just love change and hope. I hope it changes- soon!
This is a joke right? Or is this a piece from the Onion?
As a nonbeliever this is a scary lawsuit.
Why would this be scary? Either you are letting emotions control your opinion or you don't understand the Constitution. Why does a Christian organization, who claim they are Christians and claim they are following their beliefs need to allow students who clearly have no other need to be involved other than to show hate to Christians need to be allowed to "lead" a group they would disagree with? It would be like me going to a liberals meeting and demanding the right to be in an organization just to piss them off. Freedom of Religion doesn't stop with Church back organizations. Ask the Westboro Baptist Church who is affiliated only with themselves. The government recognizes them. I don't go in there and they to high jack their beliefs. Please as a non-believer I don't ask you to accept my views as fact but to honor my views as an American with rights. Non-believers are not given special rights about believers.
Daniel Gleason Actually my comment was agreeing with you.
Tony Sakich Then why would the lawsuit be scary? It is on behalf of the religious organization in order to protect them.
Daniel Gleason You are correct I should have been clearer with my original post.
I believe the Christians will lose this, and that is a bad sign for religious freedom of all sorts. The reason many of us Atheists are so upset and vocal is that we just don't like someone telling us what to do.
Many Atheist ploys are ridiculously misguided and useless, such as fighting ten commandment displays and not fighting the fact that Atheists are unable to run for public office in many states. One is actually a denial of rights, the other is just trying to make noise and looking pathetic while doing it. Imagine if the entire civil rights movement was based on the racist cartoons Warner Brothers made and not on voting rights/segregation, etc…. I sure bet it wouldn't have gone far.
I also personally believe religion is harmful and useless, but who am I to impose those beliefs on anyone at all? Especially when instead of fighting for actual rights, they are trying to do symbolic things that just make people angry.
Disband the club…That is the ONLY way that they can get away from it…
UNC-Greensboro Christian Athletes and students need to boycott/protest what the Leninists are doing at their university.
What kind perverted individual would sue to get into a Christian Club when they aren't a Christian? That's just weird.. no.. call it like it is.. that's someone with problems.
Someone who wants to destroy the club. Christianity is under attack.
Jim Hudson ; yep were comin for ya! ATHEISTS! ATHEISTS! lol
Ryan McCracken is a tool.
Kevin Worm ; UMADBRO?
Jim Hudson ….ya and then the atheists try to marginalize it as no big deal, like it's a joke. By the way, isn't there some unwritten rule that you are supposed to have muscles if you wear a muscle shirt? ESPECIALLY if it's a profile picture? Just sayin.
Ryan McCracken, no, not at all. What makes you think your beliefs are superior over every religious group? Why must you attack Christians but not Muslims? You must have no dignity or life to try and hinder the beliefs of other people. Why do you care if someone has different beliefs? Why not let them be?
Scott Eustice, this Ryan guy is a fake. You're right, he doesn't have any muscle, just saggy arms. Apparently, this tool works for CitiGroup.
Scott Eustice ; Better than your page, you look like a Pedophile,AND you got some kids on your page you are probably stalkin. my name is chris hansen, have a seat q-ball.
its a christain group you should believe in the one true God nobody is making you go so dont if you dont want to ,it still a free country or maybe not
Ryan McCracken – so where would YOU like to spend eternity? Smoking or Non-smoking? There are no other choices. Repent & be saved!
Julia Smith Wescott ; screw the smoke, i wanna be directly in the flames! Seriously if all that fiction were true (it isnt) I would not be serving a crybaby contradiction like your fake deity.
Ryan McCracken, why do you call it all a fake? Why do you choose to believe some things that are written in books, but not others. Obviously you don't believe in Jesus, and his miracles that were witnessed by many, yet you probably choose to believe that George Washington crossed the Delaware on one cold Christmas Eve night. How do you reason such things? Based on what?
Ryan McCracken POOR THING. . . . DON'T HOLD THE CELL PHONE TOO CLOSE NEXT TIME FOR YOUR CLOSE-UP.
Ryan McCracken You must be lonely. Being that stupid.
Ryan McCracken – "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 1:23 . I will start praying for you, Ryan – it's not too late~
Ryan McCracken – "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." Jude 1:23 . I will start praying for you, Ryan – it's not too late~
Ryan McCracken I hear your comment so often. What view is being "imposed on you since before you were born" and how is it being "imposed" on you against your will? Certainly atheism aka theory of evolution is being imposed on you and everyone else from grade 1 to 12, college, and beyond. Does that bother you?
What? Did you read what this is about or just another brain dead Christian. This is about more than just a non Christian leading a Christian group. This is about a group trying to pass itself off as "Christian" without having any accountability to any one. Can you NOT see how dangerous this is? I am not a Christian but holy crap! Do you need people like me to protect you? Because it sounds like it. One would think that as Christians you would want to make 100% certain that the group calling itself "Christian" and Christian values" was in fact… Christian… This is designed to prevent idiots like the WBBC and people like Rev. Phelps from taking over a school club. It is not about a Non Christian leader leading a Christian group that refuses to affiliate itself with a recognized church. This right here is exactly what is wrong with Christians today… no common sense.
Ryan McCracken If you were a man, I have something to say for you, but you aren't.
The point I made .. originally .. was WHY? I didn't say anything about believing or not. My question was .. if you don't believe in God .. then WHY .. would you take the time to join a club for those that don't? To me .. such an individual is a sick SICK puppy. That's like .. say there's a club for homosexuals and you're straight. To PROTEST you joint the club. I mean .. that would be sick. I just don't get it.
That is someone who desires one thing; to destroy the club. Someone who has a darker motive of helping pave the way for others to eradicate christianity from the entire American way of life. Whether you choose to belong to any religion…or none at all….everyone should be able to choose that road for themselves. Christianity here in America does not force anyone to subscribe to it's belief system. You are free to be or not be whatever you want. But it is good that Christianity is here because it does help inspire people to live better and become better than they might otherwise be. It provides some sort of moral compass, which helps to hold the fabric of our society together. You infer religious tyranny? Try not being muslim in an islamic country…..see how far THAT gets you!
Ryan McCracken You're a total wannabe. We can tell your intelligence and education level by your job and your punk-ass photos. Loan processor at Citigroup. That's one step above head fry cook.
So I guess now the non Christian clubs will have to accept Christians as leaders and members. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
well yeah, always. I doubt Christians will be joining an atheist club….. And I'm sure most non religious clubs don't want to discriminate, they want members, it is only the christian club that wants to discriminate.
Sadly, it is absolutely clear to me that my government – apparently regardless of its party – has the elimination of God as its long-term goal. And if anything, we're all helping. Unfortunately, without God, simple ethics isn't enough for our society to survive. I am assuredly not a fundamentalist in any regard. I don't go to church as often as I probably should, and I certainly enjoy my evening glass(es) of wine, but I have a very strong moral sense that derives from my personal relationship with my God. I deeply resent anyone who would try to interfere with that personal relationship from either side of the moral divide. But mostly, I have profound fear for my beloved country as it rapidly loses its moral compass. Regardless of your belief (or lack of belief) in God, that belief has shaped our country. It is part of the fabric of our society. If you want to believe there is no God, please feel free. But why is it so important that your nihilistic view be imposed on all? And most importantly, why should our government feel obliged to support this?
And freethinkers are reshaping the country. You don't even see the disgustingly hypocritical words you are typing? "But why is it so important that your nihilistic view be imposed on all?" really?! It is not our view that we are trying to impose, but yours which has been imposed since before i got here. And the very idea that anyone could publicly have a different view is just an utter attack on your (outlandish) beliefs is completely stupid and arrogant. Its sheep like you that are leading us to the slaughter. We wont let that happen. I am Ryan, I am a Human, I EXIST.
Dear Ryan, I am glad that you exist. As a Christian, it is my belief that you exist simply because God created you. Christians are accused of being intolerant, but it seems those without faith are the ones most easily offended and show no tolerance. I pray that you will see the light…it is not Christians that are leading you to slaughter.
Thanks, Charles – God bless you:) Regarding the demoralizing of our beloved country, have you read "The Naked Communist?" It reveals a lot of what's happening here. God's Word is sharper than any two-edged sword though – no one can take it away from us.
Pamela Carroll ; correct we are offended bc of the arrogance of christians. ill take my facts against your beliefs any day. And pray all you like, but i can see light. Its coming from the sun.
Ryan McCracken The religion that you are describing is called "Secular Humanism". It is as much of a dogma or religion as Christianity. So please, allow people of different belief systems to coexist. I don't want the government shoving Secular Humanism down my throat. Just let belief groups be run by those who have a common belief. If you want to start an Atheist or Secular Humanist group, go ahead.
His point, Ryan, is that we should all be allowed to have our groups without the interference of those who are opposed to them. Why is it so important to you to join a christian group, with whom you share no beliefs or values, just to disrupt their groiup? Just because the society as a whole has set mores in the past, mores which have changed over time, doesn't mean that christians "imposed" anything on you, ever. Otherwise, the society's current morals, which are at odds with christianity, are being imposed on christians. Who is imposing on whom? In this case it is the christian group which is being imposed upon.
Charlie Peppler I agree 100%
Matthew Derby Im on the side of the christian group in the argument. they SHOULD be able to discriminate based on their groups purpose. I'm opposing the opportunistic christianity is under attack and all other beliefs are bad for the country comments
Ryan, if it's Christians that are leading us all to slaughter, why are things getting so much worse for this country, the more God and his word is ignored? Let me add, this country doesn't need "freethinkiers" to reshape this country. Our founding fathers, with their Christian ideals, shaped it just fine. By the way. I'm Chris, I am Human, I exist, but it's only because of the grace of our loving God.
Ryan McCracken, yes and who put that sun there? You have no facts about the origins of the universe or even how people came to be…only theories/beliefs. And while there are arrogant Christians, the same could be said of practically every group of people you could put the human race in, including atheists. So don't you see the hypocrisy in your own statement?
Ryan McCracken, yes and who put that sun there? You have no facts about the origins of the universe or even how people came to be…only theories/beliefs. And while there are arrogant Christians, the same could be said of practically every group of people you could put the human race in, including atheists. So don't you see the hypocrisy in your own statement?
And why has the university taken it upon itself to determine who is religious and who is not? The university is apparently a public school and thus part of the government. The government is prohibited from deciding what a religioius group is, what it believes, or who is in charge of it because that would be an establishment of religion in direct violation of the constitution.
Chris Miller the founding fathers were not christian and did not have christian ideals. The country is getting worse bc the majority and mainstream clings to nothing but christian "HOPE" (sound familiar?) there is not enough "DO". Which is a lot easier when people get past all your hocus pocus and focus on facts
Ryan McCracken , Ryan you have a chip on your shoulder and your anger in palpable. Can you at least pose a logical argument before you denigrate your opposition
Ryan McCracken YES, YOU ARE HUMAN, BUT CONFUSED, AND YOU NEED TO GROW UP AND GROW A PAIR!! I HAVEN'T STEPPED INTO A CHURCH SINCE 1979 AND DON'T INTEND TO STEP INTO ONE UNLESS I'M TAKING PICTURES. SO, I'M NOT RELIGIOUS. BUT, THAT DOESN'T GIVE THE RIGHT OF ATHEISTS OR EVEN YOU, WHO ARE PROBABLY LIKE ME, NON-RELIGIOUS, TO SAY "I WANT IN AND I WANT IT NOW!" YOU ARE WRONG! STAY OUT OF GROUPS OR CLUBS THAT ARE NOT YOUR BELIEFS AND LET THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. MAYBE WHEN YOU GROW UP YOU WILL UNDERSTAND. UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE TO HEAR SQUABBLE FROM CREATURES LIKE YOU.
Scottie Button christian? asking me to be logical? hmmmm
Al Sanchez learn to read ever? im the side of the christian group bud. so take off your caps lock and try again kid
Ryan McCracken No one can say as a point of fact that the Universe came into being out of nothing. No cosmologist, physicist, chemist – Christian or any other faith, KNOWS where all the matter in the Universe came from. They just know its here. Christians have a faith that it was created by God. Atheist have the exact same faith that it did not. Who in the government is imposing anything on you in terms of religion? You are free to believe what you want. Always have been and always will be as long as you're an american.
Ryan McCracken you sound like a panty waist bitch Ryan.
Ryan McCracken You hit the issue right on the head. I believe the #1 problem that churches are facing right now, young people leaving, is that they aren't providing a well researched logical argument to atheism. Faith is not enough to warrant belief which it seems to be with a large number of religious people. There is however evidence, or rather evidence that is argued, that supports God. If you really are a free thinker I challenge you to read "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. He came to my campus and made a great logical argument.
Dear sir it is my belief as a CHRISTIAN that GOD gave men like me and you the capability of RATIONAL THOUGHT to see the world in all its wonder and beauty. And to also see what true evil looks like and understand the harm it can do and why it must be stopped. It is not irrational to have belief but quite rational indeed, what is irrational is to have no beliefs what so ever. And it seems to me that you have no beliefs and are acting, speaking, and posting irrationally.
Ryan McCracken That is right you are human and do exist, but buy the grace of god, the gentleman you responded do did not say anything hypocritical. You don't have faith, just empty shell, he made a statement of his faith and you wish to call him names and condemn him for having faith, you have proved the point of his post.
LOL so many intelligent arguments lol. have fun sheep
Ryan McCracken Ryan, you feel we imposed our valued on your generation, however, you expect us to accept all this generation's values without any question. I'm sorry – but I still have the ability to think for myself and decide for myself rather than just following the rhetoric of everyone else!
On another note, even businesses hire leaders with the beliefs, views, values, and vision of what they as a company would like to achieve. Does that mean Planned Parenthood would now have to hire pro-life leaders and directors of their clinics? See, this is where the hypocrisy shows up. You, I assume would think this was absurd–, and I agree.
Pamela – you are certainly correct in saying that those who SAY they are tolerant, seem to be the most INTOLERANT and judgmental.
Ryan McCracken You are far less intelligent than you think you are. Your comment shows whats wrong you think this is about you. It is so you that you cannot see you are the one attempting to FORCE SOMETHING on someone else. Christians did not go into the atheist club or muslim club. So please try not to be so sanctamonious about your ego driven self centered opinion.
Ryan McCracken You say you exist but to what end, to re-turn to dust, a donkey is real and it exists so that means you and the donkey are one and the same? ..The difference is you have a soul that will live some where for eternity, the donkey will not! I'll believe that GOD made man different than that donkey, and trust what Christ did on the cross…you no hope just eternity in Hell…at least the donkey dies and returns to the dust.
Ryan McCracken
with brains like yours, ryan, you'll still be a payment processor 30 years' from now, too
glowing product of the american education system
Ryan McCracken, you call yourself a freethinker? Why do you oppose our freedom to think America is and has always been a great nation? You say you are reshaping this country. Into what? Divisions are worse. Poverty has increased since democrats took over both houses of Congress in the 2006 elections. They still run the Senate, including the president and all his Czars. We can all see what shape this country is in now. We don't like it! That's why Conservatives won an overwhelming victory beating "liberals" in the 2010 elections. Socialism is not the change Americans were expecting in 2006-2008. We see now, how "democrats" and their voters have failed America.
America was built on Christian principles. Christianity is our American Heritage.
Ryan McCracken , Braindead, but exist.
Charles, be assured that your glass of wine is in no way contrary to Christian faith. Our Lord turned whole vats full of water into wine so that the merrymaking could continue at a wedding. Those who would prohibit drinking are not following His Word but their own sense of piety.
Charles, be assured that your glass of wine is in no way contrary to Christian faith. Our Lord turned whole vats full of water into wine so that the merrymaking could continue at a wedding. Those who would prohibit drinking are not following His Word but their own sense of piety.
Ryan McCracken yes, and you belong on another planet!
Pamela Carroll Show more tolerance? Did you not read anything about the Cranston West prayer banner? The Christians in that community were making death threats toward a 16 year-old girl and calling her names. She had to be escorted around by police for her own safety against those Christians. Even a Christian state representative called her an "evil little thing" on the radio, simply because she wanted the school to obey the law.
Tolerant my ass…
Ryan McCracken I am Christian, I think, therefore I am real
Ryan McCracken – you are absolutely wrong about the founding fathers not being Christian. And if you were not a victim of the public schools (aka the institute for socialist DEMONcrat indoctorinization for the advancement of ignorance and political correctness) you would know that. Let me start by educating you some along with the very own words of the founding fathers.
29 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence held degrees in Christian Theology.
From the D of I – If our rights are not unalienable and given to us by God who is recognized as above all authority of man, then man can take those rights away. And it is this foundation laid down in the D of I that the Bill of Rights in the Consitution is based on.
Patrick Henry – “It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!”
John Adams – "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams – "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Thomas Jefferson – "Can the liberties of our nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that their liberties are a gift of God?"
Benjamin Rush – Declaration signer and founder of what we still practice today in Church – Sunday School – "My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!"
George Washington – "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. … Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
Benjamin Franklin – "Nere shrink at suffering for thy saviours sake; Religious Always in thy station be; Adore the Maker of thy Inward part: Now’s the Accepted time, Give him thy Heart; In Heart with bended knee Alone Adore; None but the Three in One Forevermore."
Benjamin Franklin – "That there is one God Father of the Universe. That he is infinitely good, Powerful and wise. That he is omnipresent. That he ought to be worshipped, by Adoration Prayer and Thanksgiving both in PUBLICK and private."
Roger Sherman – signer of the Declaration and Constitution – "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners…"
Richard Stockton – Declaration signer – "I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion…."
From the congressional jounals – The first resolution by congress after the Revolution was for the approval of the printing of an English language bible for the sole purpose of education in the public schools.
Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance passed by congress under the Articles of Confederation and again later under the Constitution required territories applying for statehood to teach religion and morality in the piublic schools.
John Langdon – Constitution signer – "I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living ."
From the tenets of American exceptionalism – A Judeo-Christian Foundation . . . Inalienable Rights, the bedrock of Americanism, must be endowed by a Creator greater than man in order for man to be prohibited from denying these rights. The Faith of our Forefathers was that of Judeo-Christianity which works hand in hand with Individual Freedoms in that Christianity must be freely accepted by the individual in order to be valid.
John Witherspoon – Declaration signer – "How you can distinguish an American patriot – what follows from this, that he is the best friend to American liberty, who is the most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sits himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind……whoever is an avoud enemy of God, I do not hesitate or I scrupple not to call him an enemy to his country".
And there is a lot more from where this came from.
Ryan McCracken Nice bathroom cell phone pic…
Anyway, you said your beliefs are based on facts. But truth is, you don't have any proof that God don't exist. But I know your type. You're quick to bash Christians but you don't have the nuts to speak a word against islam. The very religion that is slowly integrating their ways, laws, and rules in our society. And trust, when that does happen, you'll be wishing to God that you shouldn't missed Sunday school…
So, go back to taking ridiculous bathroom cell phone pics while bashing your computer keys speaking out against us evil Christians…
Ryan McCracken you are another great example of why obama is president. 'YA CANT FIX STUPID'
Leon Guthrie I don't disagree with what you are saying, but proof that God doesn't exist is not the most logical way of finding truth. The burden of proof means that when making a claim, such as if God exist you have to have evidence to support this. Otherwise you will have atheists say they believe in a flying spaghetti monster that is invisible to you so you don't have proof it doesn't exist. There are facts that support Christianity just go to http://crossexamined.org
Charles I agree with your post, I would say that being moral should not be our goal as Christians morality is often a reflection of society's definition. I believe that being spiritual should be our goal. In the above incident as Christians we would be going against the teachings of the Bible to have a leader who does not fit into model the New Testament has directed us to do. We cannot obey such laws period, it would undermine the body of Christ and would be a sin and even the prisoners at Gitmo have more religious freedom that that.
Ryan McCracken I hear your comment so often. What view is being "imposed on you since before you were born" and how is it being "imposed" on you against your will? Certainly atheism aka theory of evolution is being imposed on you and everyone else from grade 1 to 12, college, and beyond. Does that bother you?
Mike Grantham There were some founding fathers that were Christians, yes, but unless your quotes contain the words Jesus Christ there is as good a chance they were a Deist rather than a Christian. Christianity is not the only religion that believes in a sole God/creator. For example, I am reading a biography on Benjamin Franklin (Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Isaacson), and I see you quoted him twice. But in fact, the first quote is not from Benjamin Franklin the founding father, but rather from Franklin's uncle, whom he was named after. You can see this quote in context on page four of Franklin's autobiography here: http://www.coloradorepublic.org/docs/Commercial%20Law%20Text/Law%20School%20Tutorials/FREE%20WORKS/The%20Autobiography%20of%20Benjamin%20Franklin.pdf
The second quote of Franklin you provided is his Doctrine to be Preached which is indeed his work and can be read in full here: http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf2/doctrine.htm However, note that there is no mention of Jesus Christ, which would be the only way to know for sure that this is referring to the Christian god and not the Deist god.
I give you a quotation from Walter Isaacson's biography of Benjamin Franklin: " Although divine revelation "had no weight with me," he decided that religious practices were beneficial because they encouraged good behavior and a moral society. So he began to embrace a morally fortified brand of deism that held God was best served by doing good works and helping other people." (pg 46)
Therefore, unless you provide a quote of a founding father specifically declaring his belief in Jesus Christ and provide the context in which it was said, I will not believe you when you claim a founding father was a Christian.
Ryan McCracken, you mean NON-thinkers are reshaping the country. Why is it so important that your athiestic existentialism view be imposed on all? It is you that is the sheep and you have already been lead to the slaughter. Your entire post represents the characteristics of the athiestic existentialism worldview, to include nihilism. Interesting how you used that word in your post. Look it up. Nihilism goes hand in hand with the athiestic existentialism worldview. It is through you arrogance that you justify in your mind, accusing another of being arrogant. You are correct about 3 things. You are Ryan. You are human and you do only exist. Also interesting how you felt the need to state that. Try living rather than merely existing.
Danielle Carter – Nope, the founding fathers were not Deist either. While Deist believe in A god, they believe that this god does not interfere in the affairs of man. If that is the case, then Declaration of Independence would not end with the words – "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence" which means they were relying on God's intervention and protection for what they were about to do – commit treason against the crown.
Thomas Jefferson also recalled in his account of the signing of the Declaration of Independence that they called upon ALL of the colonist to a day of Fasting and prayer to implore God's divine providence to avert them from the evils of civil war and to bring the king and parliment to reason on their behalf. Deist would not do this.
You need to study history, because the society in the colonies at that time was total cenetered around Christianity. And I have also read that autobiography of Ben Franklin – and you need to revisit that. You also need to read Ben Franklin's autobiography that he himself wrote.
Danielle Carter – Also, Jesus Christ does not have to be mentioned for any of the founders quotes to be of Judeo-Christian origin and in many cases directly from bible verses.
Ryan McCracken You may exist but you are an idiot. Your logic is completely warped. Have you forced your way into the Girl Scouts yet or the MSA?
Ryan McCracken Who's shoving anything on you little boy?
Ryan McCracken yes, but "reshaping" it into what? How do you think America became the free and prosperous superpower we did? Why didn't the Europeans have the same power and level of influence over the last two centuries? I submit it is our representative form of government and the genius of our Constitution. We don't need to "reshape". It worked for centuries, and now you folks are trying to muck with it. Lastly, using words like 'nihilistic' out of context to impress us with your intelligence (probably heard that in college, right?) only works on the gullible.
Ryan McCracken In this case, like most, a Christian group is not bothering anybody and the government is forcing their viewpoint. Your entire post is hypocritical.
S C O U S WILL STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT!
"However, the university contends that the club is not affiliated with a church – and therefore doesn’t meet their criteria for exemption."
If that is what the university non-discrimination policy says then it should be enough. Something like "the non-discrimination policy will not apply to those groups affiliated with a church". Who knows what beliefs these guys hold, if it was open slather one could make anything up and claim religion.
Is the group funded by the University?
The University is violating the First Amendment. Clear and simple.
Laird Baldwin makes a good point. Now I suggest all moslem activities be attended by non moslems. That includes prayer areas. Let's push this to its ridiculous PC limits. I also suggest Univ Board meetings, ad hoc comittees and any faculty gathering also be attended by non faculty. Why should there be any exclusion. As a matter of fact there should be no club identifying itself as a club for a specific activity. That is exclusionary. Everything should just be called club or meeting – and please get rid of Men's room, Ladies room and handicapped facility – all exclusionary terms. I hope the campus doesn't have a room called a Board Room – how discriminatory can you be!
I'll go to a mosque. I'll even bring along some bacon and sausage for everyone's lunch afterwards. mmmm…makes the mosque's kitchen smell goooooood…..
Why exactly do they need the universities recognition?
Could they not just go meet somewhere of their own accord and pray, talk or whatever it is they do.
Did jesus not say:
Matthew 6:6
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Do they really NEED to be recognized publicly?
We can see you're no student of the Bible. There is a context to this verse and you are way off.
David Bannasch Whatever helps you sleep at night. Nice of you to dodge the questions as to why they are seeking university recognition. They don't even belong to any one church (why they aren't being recognized in the first place), why do they "need" to belong to the university? Is it not enough for them to just come together of their own accord and do whatever it is they're going to do? Else wise they can simply find a congregation to join and they'll meet the requirements. Or are you unable to see why such a restriction exists?
As an observant Jew and college student affairs official with experience at four different institutions and someone who is conservative politically, the article unfortunately leaves out a few things. Students are free to assemble, but if they want official university recognition (reservation of space, activity money, etc.), groups (any group from any background for any reason) usually must agree to be non-discriminatory. Any student must be permitted to join the group, however, they can set standards for election of officers (being an active member willing to uphold the organization's mission, etc.).
Without knowing further information, I can't comment further about whether this is truly an encroachment on the 1st Amendment (I hope not) or just an group trying to make a name for itself.
I hope so too, I do feel that organized religion is under attack recently.
It would be awful if a state-funded school forced groups seeking its "recognition" as Charlie put it to not be discriminatory! What is this world coming to?!? How dare this school do the right thing!
Exactly why my children will never attend a state funded educational institution…..because of what this world is coming to.
So the university wants to outlaw discrimination based on race, creed, gender, sexual orinetation, religion, etc. Let's take the logic of this policy and apply it elsewhere. The university needs to force the sororities to admit men. Then it needs to force the NOW club to admit men – even sexist pigs. Then the College Democrats should be required to admit into their leadership tea party activists. Are you a bacon eating hunter and circus fan? You can now join PETA without changing your ways. Finally, how about allowing the Coptic and Antiochan Christians to join the Arab groups?
Bobby Jamieson – fraternities and sororities are an obvious exception. The group doesn't have to admit anyone they don't want to. If they want recognition (i.e. funds and meeting space) they have to let any fee paying student into the group. Requirements for voting, officers, etc. can be more stringent. So yes if the hunter wants to show up the PETA meeting because he wants free vegan pizza that was paid for my student activity fees, the PETA group has to allow him in. Letting him run for President at that first meeting is a different story.
I will also add I do know enough about this case. The article is clearly biased (and again, I am conservative) and lacking some critical information for a fair determination about what happened.
isn't govenour a women no wonder a screwed up policy.
supreme court will rule 9-0 in favor of the student group. they have ruled 9-0 in the past that church schools can fire employees who don't adhear to thier beliefs.
So if a Christian want to join an Atheist group, and be a leader.. that is OK as well. I bet a judge would never help in that case.
Once again we need to tell the Department of EDUCATION AND ALL THE GARBAGE IT BREEDS ALONG WITH uNIVERSITY OFFICIALS TO TAKE A HIKE.
That's like the gov. telling the DNC that they have to have a Republican leader.
I'm confused as to why some one that does not believe, would want to join this group anyway? Do they have really good snacks?
If you play your cards right, at least at Ohio State, you can go to a different club each night and get free pizza
Tanner Sledge. I don't recall any of the pizza places from my OSU days, but they had two really great used record shops on High Street. Singing Dogs Used Records and I think the other was Moles Used Records. Go Bucks!
Mitch Morrison How times have changed you should see what they did to south oval! Pizza places are all around campus now, a place called Adriatico's has an 18×24 pizza that clubs always order here.
Tanner Sledge. I get back to Ohio a few times each year and will check it out. You should check out Papa Boo's at Buckeye Lake, 13 miles south of Newark. Great summer place right on the lake. Bands, drink & good food. If you have a boat, they have enlarged their dock space. They are on Facebook.
Tanner Sledge. I get back to Ohio a few times each year and will check it out. You should check out Papa Boo's at Buckeye Lake, 13 miles south of Newark. Great summer place right on the lake. Bands, drink & good food. If you have a boat, they have enlarged their dock space. They are on Facebook.
Hey! Now I might have a chance to join MENSA!
Join? You can become the leader now!
Right!!!
I do not like the attacks on our country and on our Godly values (that are slowly dwindling)…but let's say we be Christian and let them in our clubs as members. Show them the Love of Jesus they so desperately need. Conversion? Possible. And then take all that Christian love into THEIR clubs and pour it all over them. If we start fighting (i mean "giving") back, maybe we can prolong the innevitable….
If it was just about letting them be members, it would be one thing. This article is about letting them be leaders which is absolutely ridiculous.
Very true Patty. I agree.
The only group that it is now legal to be intolerant of is Christians.
As a devote follower of Jesus I am commissioned to share the Gospel with a lost and broken world, whoever they may be. This could be an opportunity to reach out with the Love of Christ and help someone. When I get together in public places with fellow believers to fellowship and study God's word, the Holy Bible, we don't have leaders or denominations, we are all one body of believers with Christ as the head. I would encourage non-believers to join us. I would be happy to pray with them and for them, and hopefully lead them to know my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Allowing the violation of one's 1st Amendment rights is right in line with the typical liberal democrat way of thinking today. We need to reign these *liberal basturds' in RIGHT NOW before they start thinking we're all required to be politically correct!
Since, once that is done, it is no longer a "Christian Club" close it and shut it down…meet off campus. Will they rule that Christians can join Islamic clubs, Atheist clubs? Of course not, that would not serve their purpose…'taking God, Christianity, faith, honesty, values, ethics out of American life.'
Lets just open this door and see what flies in. File this under: What were they thinking?
If we don't unelect Obama in November, we will not have a constitution or a nation left to defend.
It's confirmed. (See Press Conference Today) Obama's birth certificate is a fake. The original digital file posted to the White House website was built in identifiable layers. Who would do such a thing and why? Because, Barack Hussein Obama was born in Kenya. His father was a citizen of Kenya. Barack Hussein Obama is not a "natural born" citizen. He is ineligible to be the President of the United States. He has been groomed from childhood to be a usurper.
I'm left to wonder if a Non-Christian truly wants to be a part of a group that is a JESUS FREAK Christian club…Jesus, and truly following Him and His word aren't exactly non-Christian fare. However, I'm also amazed that a "Christian" club would not jump at the chance to have NON-Christians in their midst…think about that one….
While I see your point to have them in their midst, I would be completely opposed to one being a leader of the group.
Maybe, just maybe God can use this as a way to open their eyes fully to Him…He's done stranger things…you know like blinded and met a man on the Damascus Road who did everything in his power to defy the name of Jesus…then took him, changed his name, and made him one of the most powerful men of God this world has ever known…Maybe if we would just trust Him…
Really stupid University!
That's great because my goal in Life is to run the NAACP as a white MAN!
lol, the university apparently has a previously defined religious category. This group should have learned what it was before they got started. They should also be fighting to redefine what the school considers a religious group. There must be a definition or you defeat the anti-discrimination laws.
Without a set definition any club can claim to be religious and discriminate however that religion sees fit.
The public educational system is the UNCONSTITUTIONAL "brainwashing centerpiece" of the communist party here in America. It's time to burn the "Communist Manifesto Curriculum"! Our founding fathers would convict us of treason for putting up with this crap!
The same founding fathers that raped and destroyed the original inhabitants of this great country and forced legal segregation on minorities until about 40 years ago? I'll pass on the founding father rhetoric!
The same founding fathers that raped and destroyed the original inhabitants of this great country and forced legal segregation on minorities until about 40 years ago? I'll pass on the founding father rhetoric!
Karam Tascoe the founding fathers developed a government and institutions that led to the abolition of slavery and the pursuit to all our citizens full rights. Have there been failings and great evil? You bet. I will still take our founding fathers "rhetoric" over your "I hate America" drivel.
George Steele Of course you would when you benefited from it the most.I dont hate America at all. On the contrary I love this country which is why I gave them 6 years in the military. Im sure you've never served. Funny how you didnt address the wrongs of the founding fathers. Again segregation ended like 40 years ago so spare me the constitution and founding father's rhetoric.
Karam Tascoe you would not know whether I benefited it the most. The bottom line, is that that I DID acknowledge this nation's failings. The difference between you and me, is that this nation's failings is all you seem to acknowledge. YOu are correct; I have never served in the military, but not for lack of attempting to do so. You should not assume things; that makes you appear the fool.
George Steele but i didnt look like a fool because I was correct. The difference is that you read history completely different than I do. They guys who came up with the concept of the constitution were revolutionary at that particular time in history. The document needs to continually be amended and down right changed. The look and feel of the country has changed or better yet progressed. So it may have been a wonderful document when only white heterosexual males were the ones it considered but now we live in a diverse country and the original constitution does not acknowledge those diversities. You cant govern like this is the 17th century. So the original poster was correct, the slave owning, Indian killing, women degrading, homosexual hating, land stealing, war loving and mexican fighting Founding fathers would want to convict us for treason! Thank God they are long gone.
Karam Tascoe thank you for proving you are an America hater. You also have a very slanted view of history and appear to want to see things only in terms of race. Sorry, most people in this country, of all backgrounds, like the freedoms our constitution(That you have so much disdain for.) and will not tolerate replacing it with with garbage that only lasts until the next coup.
Nice how you only pulled race out of my comment among all the other groups I mentioned. Let me guess, your not a racist because you have lots of black friends. I think most people would love to see the 200 year old document continually amended and the language cleaned up so it doesn't allow so much ambiguity.
Karam Tascoe actually, the vast majority of Americans like the Constitution just the way it is. Instead of bashing our Constitution, why don't you state what changes you would like to see. Give it a shot.
Karam Tascoe There were black slave owners in Lousianna – are you going to address that? Get over the hate. The Founding Fathers attempted to set up a framework that ensured INALIENABLE rights to all humans. They didn't need to think about the internet. Their work ensured freedom despite the many advances we have made, we have simply ignored many of those initial teachings.
Many of our problems have been generated by government and it is government that campaigns for more government to fix the problem.
Riley Secrist Inalieable rights for all people? Thats not true. The 13th amendment which freed the slaves was adopted on December 6, 1865. The constitution was adopted in 1791. The voting rights act was adopted in 1965 and the civil rights act was adopted in 1964. Yes there were black slave owners who were just as wrong as white slave owners. My argument is against this false notion that the founding fathers were such great men. And if you were a white heterosexual male in 1791 I could see how you would come to that conclusion but for Indians, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Women, Atheist, Homosexuals and the like the document needed to be and continuously needs to be amended. Stop living in the past.
Karam Tascoe And if you were a black male in 1791 I could understand your anger and maybe your point. But you aren't. Your rights are safe and having a basic understanding of that would help you realize that no amendment or law can change a mindset. Even if the 13th Amendment went away, do you think there would be slaves again? I think YOU are the one living in the past right now.
Karam Tascoe well, you have a point on Blacks, and Indians. The point is that the country corrected itself. Same with women. As far as athiests, by eliminating government control of religion, I believe that the ball was set in motion for athiests to be able to safely live here. Homosexuals, I am not aware of any desire or push, in forming our constitution to oppress homosexuals. I do not believe that homosexuals were even on the radar screen until the sixties, if even then. You have not answered my question. You hold the USA in contempt. YOu want our Constitution scrapped, aparently. So, what would you replace it with, assuming you even have a clue?
George Steele i do not hold my country in contempt nor do I want the total constitution scrapped. I do however want you to quit speaking of the "founding fathers" as if they walked with Jesus.
Riley Secrist My rights are safe and guaranteed today but not because of the "founding fathers" as you call them. Im not living in the past but I dont buy that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity rhetoric about the "founding fathers" and how we are moving further away from the constitution. Hell this is a progressive society and we should be continually updating and changing the language to reflect the ever changing country.
The people who made this ruling are obviously incompetent and not qualified for the positions they are in.
I wonder what would happen if the role was reversed. Do you think a Muslim club would let Christian leaders in. I don't think so. So why do they have to let Non-Christians in. This is so crazy!
Ridiculous, but Godtold us many years ago this was coming!
We hear about these kinds of ignorant decisions made in our education system and in our court system. What we need is information about the school Administrators, and Judges responsible, so we can remove them from every position of authority.
People of all faiths better start putting their religious differences aside and at least join political forces because this communist government is hell bent on eliminating ALL RELIGIONS!
You dont even know the definition of communist
You dont even know the definition of communist
Karam Tascoe One of the major themes of Communism has been to eliminate religion or make Atheism the only religion. Do your research.
Aiyana Thaxton And in noway shape or form is the university or the federal government trying to eliminate religion. They are actually enforcing the constitution. I know that doesn't mesh with your ideology.
Karam Tascoe, the definition of communism is a political system that creates a classless, state control, and contol of social systems. I am a Anthropology major at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. If you look at the majority of COMMUNISM countries; they have eliminated religion or force people within the society to believe the person running the country is a GOD (N.Korea) or Brainwashed the population having No GOD. Most Socialist groups on many college campuses do not respect democracy or freedom to have private property.
However, I am involve in a christian club… and it's not fair for other faith group that does not associate with their temples or mosque and have a person within that particular faith run and take charged their club. It's not right or ethical for the federal government to isolate a religion or destroy the foundation of a religion
Aiyana good job doing your research
It is a two way road people, this is STATE University, not a private University. Taxes fund this institution. While I think it is great to have diverse clubs, those clubs cannot be closed to people because they do not qualify, if this school were privatized I may agree. Religion is adamant about government staying out of its private institutions, religion should be grateful that they can even hold a group meeting on government funded property. Tax payers do not pay for a group to use campus facilities and allow that group to deny certain individuals entry. Welcome to a country of equality, we do not live double standards here, if you do not like this go t a privatized school.
The issue is the fact that the school is telling them they must allow anyone and everyone to not only be a member (not much of a problem there) but also a LEADER (why would a Christian club want NON-Christian leaders?), so it's the same problem any other club could have if a leader of the club did not hold the beliefs that are central to the club.
What if a leader of Environmental Club was fine with deforestation? Or a leader of Gay-Straight Alliance club did not agree with homosexuality? Or a leader of Anime Club didn't like Anime? That is the problem.
A club must be able to choose it's leaders.
Aiyana Thaxton The club does choose its leaders, read it again, they are only stating that anyone can run for the position. Why would a Christian group elect an atheist to run their club. That makes very little sense.
Joshua Laird "The University of North Carolina-Greensboro has ordered a Christian club to allow non-Christians as leaders and members, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday."
I did read it. That is the very first sentence. If I have misinterpreted that it is a different story, but I did read it.
"The University of North Carolina-Greensboro has ordered a Christian club to allow non-Christians as leaders and members, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday."
There it is again.
Joshua Laird "The University of North Carolina-Greensboro has ordered a Christian club to allow non-Christians as leaders and members, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday."
I did read it. That is the very first sentence. If I have misinterpreted that it is a different story, but I did read it.
"The University of North Carolina-Greensboro has ordered a Christian club to allow non-Christians as leaders and members, according to a federal lawsuit filed Wednesday."
There it is again.
Aiyana Thaxton There is a difference between allowing and making. I assure you this is an attempt by a conservative journalist to make it seem worse than it is, beware of the media on the right and the left, while they do not lie they tend to tell half truths. I have never been part of an organization off or on campus that DICTATED who would be leading a school group. I assure you that now the option for anyone who would like to run for the position is available. They do not clarify this because they want you to jump to the worse of the only two possible outcomes, if there were no election involved in the process I assure you they would be more than happy to drop that bomb. Read through the journalism and the bias, Fox News is bias and so is MSNBC, all media outlets are.
Joshua Laird That is why I rarely read news and don't watch it.
Aiyana Thaxton the liberals want everyone to be all things to all people. It is a touchy feely form of comformity "think like everyone else so you don't offend someone'
Matt Connolly Think how you want, hate who you want, frankly I do not care, people only have a problem when you use tax payer funded property to host events that marginalize people. I am sure there are plenty of places that one can use for closed events that are not funded by everyone collectively. This is not about political correctness, who cares about political correctness. We as tax payers own government property and have equal access to it and the events held on it. Truly the protection of religion at every level is the beast in politics. While I agree it should be protected it is often used as the gladiators plow to destroy anyone who questions them.