Jul 18, 2012
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A small Indiana town may have to remove a super-sized cross anchored on public property after a someone filed a complaint with Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
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The Dugger Town Council voted unanimously to move the 26-foot tall cross to avoid a possible lawsuit. Americans United sent a letter to town officials explaining that the cross had to be moved because it was an unlawful government endorsement of Christianity.
The cross, emblazoned with the words “Jesus Saves” is located on public property along Highway 54 near the high school baseball field. It was built by two men who are members of Faith Community Church.
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Courtesy of Faith Community Church
Pastor Shawn Farris said the demands from Americans United are “horrible.”
“Religious freedom is being attacked,” he told Fox News. “I think it’s the minority coming against the majority.”
Farris said he was alerted Monday evening of the council’s decision to have the church relocate the cross.
“They said they really didn’t want to do it but they were afraid of the legal fight and wouldn’t be able to afford the fight,” he said.
Word of American United’s attack has sparked outrage across the state. Farris said they’ve been overwhelmed with calls from churches offering to help.
Dozens of citizens have been gathering around the base of the cross to pray and worship — hoping that a miracle might save what has become a landmark in this small community.
“I am not afraid of (the activist group),” resident Vicki Figg told the Greene County Daily World. “We may not have the funds to hire an attorney, but the people of Dugger are represented by a Higher Power and we will prevail. Our cross will stay where it is.”
Raemi Bowne wondered if Americans United might demand the town remove its power poles — seeing how the utility poles are “cross-shaped.”
“Some people just need something to complain about to hurt others,” she said. “It’s nonsense. Some people need to find Jesus — or something else to do with their time.”
““It’s a really bad situation where groups like this come and target not just small towns but Christianity and the message of Jesus Christ in general,” Farris said.
The cross was constructed in 2010. The town board gave permission for the church to erect the cross on a patch of public ground.
Courtesy of Faith Community Church
“We wanted to put it up on the highway so more people could see it,” Farris said. “Jesus — the cross is a symbol of hope. He is the one we can turn to when we have problems. He’s the answer to every problem that we have in this world – especially as we see our country falling apart and the biblical foundation crumbling.”
Several religious liberty groups have offered to help the church fight Americans United — but if they lose – Farris said they’ll have a big problem on their hands — how to move it.
The cross is built out of cast iron and solid steel. It’s bolted to a foundation of six yards of concrete.
Farris said whether the cross stays or has to be moved is not the point.
“I hope they realize that God is still in control,” he said. “No matter what, I believe God will provide a place for the cross.”
But the pastor also believes there’s a lesson for the nation to learn from the giant cross in the small town of Dugger.
He said it’s proof that Christianity is under attack.
“We have no animosity, we have no hatred towards the people who called this group,” he said. “It’s an attack on Christianity from the enemy of Christianity — and that’s Satan himself.”
Americans United gave the town 30 days to respond to their letter.
FOX News Talk
Keep it simple and just sell the section of land that the cross sits on to those who built the cross.. $100 and a deed to that small section of land and the Americans United can just toss their lawsuit in the trash. Land would no longer be public property, so there wont be a case.
Are you Christians so insecure in your beliefs that your churches and homes are not enough, you need to erect your shrines on public property paid for by Christians AND non-Christians? When are you going to learn?
Can you imagine the uproar among Christians if, say, Atheists tried to erect a giant, permanent Atheist monument in front of the courthouse or in a public park? It’d never be allowed. Yet you think it just and fair that only you get to do this? My “religious freedoms” are not being attacked because I can’t erect my “religious” monuments on public land, and neither are yours. Grow up.
Don’t think Christians would have a tantrum if non-Christians try to push their “religious” beliefs in public schools or on public land? How about when Christians were fine with distributing Bibles, but as soon as a Pagan tried to distribute her material, she was DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
Or when Christians distribute their book covers that’s fine, but when Atheists do the same thing, DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Or when there was a vitriolic reaction among Christians when Muslims simply wanted equal treatment by having Korans along with the Bibles that were already being handed out:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
Separation of Church and State protects YOU Christians, too! If you won’t tolerate non-Christian monuments and material at public schools and on public land, why the hell should we tolerate yours?
Are you Christians so insecure in your beliefs that your churches and homes are not enough, you need to erect your shrines on public property paid for by Christians AND non-Christians? When are you going to learn?
Can you imagine the uproar among Christians if, say, Atheists tried to erect a giant, permanent Atheist monument in front of the courthouse or in a public park? It’d never be allowed. Yet you think it just and fair that only you get to do this? My “religious freedoms” are not being attacked because I can’t erect my “religious” monuments on public land, and neither are yours. Grow up.
Don’t think Christians would have a tantrum if non-Christians try to push their “religious” beliefs in public schools or on public land? How about when Christians were fine with distributing Bibles, but as soon as a Pagan tried to distribute her material, she was DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
Or when Christians distribute their book covers that’s fine, but when Atheists do the same thing, DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Or when there was a vitriolic reaction among Christians when Muslims simply wanted equal treatment by having Korans along with the Bibles that were already being handed out:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
Separation of Church and State protects YOU Christians, too! If you won’t tolerate non-Christian monuments and material at public schools and on public land, why the hell should we tolerate yours?
Sounds like your the one that needs to grow up. You sound just like a little child crying because someone else got permission to do something and you weren't allowed too. Boo Hoo, would you like a tissue or a cookie and some milk to go along with that whining?
The fact is they got permission to build the cross, and now just because of a single cry baby they are making them "move it", not take it down, just "move it", so that same cry baby will still have to see the cross once its moved. What will the cry baby do than? The cross isn't harming anything or anyone no matter where it is built or moved to. Either way the cross will stand up and reflect the beliefs of the majority, no matter how much you whine and cry!!!
I can take by your comments you are a proud supporter of OBAMA as well, specially since you believe that ones own wishes out weigh the majority.
I can also tell by your language in your last sentence that you are a believer of heaven and hell, and are upset that they wont allow you to display your demons on public property or in schools.
I can tell you now, I seen and attended schools that had morning prayer, than a moment of silence because of change. Now we have nothing in our schools and guess what… without god in our schools, we now have kids killing kids in school with guns and drugs… the more the non believers restrict the rights of the believers the worse shape our country becomes. Like the bible says you forsake me and I shall forsake you… Did you ever stop to think maybe we could become the nation we once were if we stop forsaking God?
What a concept huh??? To have everything you need along with good health and riches from the blessing of the lord just for believing in him and his abilities. I know through God's blessings, my entire family has made it through every hardship that was thrown our way. We all have roofs over our heads, food on our table, clothes on our back, and our health is good! We don't depend on Obama for our needs, we go to the lord with our needs and he provides everything we need, including love!
So, Joe Distefano, I pray for good health for you and your family and that GOD blesses you and your family with all your needs…
Are you Christians so insecure in your beliefs that your churches and homes are not enough, you need to erect your shrines on public property paid for by Christians AND non-Christians? When are you going to learn?
Can you imagine the uproar among Christians if, say, Atheists tried to erect a giant, permanent Atheist monument in front of the courthouse or in a public park? It’d never be allowed. Yet you think it just and fair that only you get to do this? My “religious freedoms” are not being attacked because I can’t erect my “religious” monuments on public land, and neither are yours. Grow up.
Don’t think Christians would have a tantrum if non-Christians try to push their “religious” beliefs in public schools or on public land? How about when Christians were fine with distributing Bibles, but as soon as a Pagan tried to distribute her material, she was DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
Or when Christians distribute their book covers that’s fine, but when Atheists do the same thing, DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Or when there was a vitriolic reaction among Christians when Muslims simply wanted equal treatment by having Korans along with the Bibles that were already being handed out:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
Separation of Church and State protects YOU Christians, too! If you won’t tolerate non-Christian monuments and material at public schools and on public land, why the hell should we tolerate yours?
Sounds like your the one that needs to grow up. You sound just like a little child crying because someone else got permission to do something and you weren't allowed too. Boo Hoo, would you like a tissue or a cookie and some milk to go along with that whining?
The fact is they got permission to build the cross, and now just because of a single cry baby they are making them "move it", not take it down, just "move it", so that same cry baby will still have to see the cross once its moved. What will the cry baby do than? The cross isn't harming anything or anyone no matter where it is built or moved to. Either way the cross will stand up and reflect the beliefs of the majority, no matter how much you whine and cry!!!
I can take by your comments you are a proud supporter of OBAMA as well, specially since you believe that ones own wishes out weigh the majority.
I can also tell by your language in your last sentence that you are a believer of heaven and hell, and are upset that they wont allow you to display your demons on public property or in schools.
I can tell you now, I seen and attended schools that had morning prayer, than a moment of silence because of change. Now we have nothing in our schools and guess what… without god in our schools, we now have kids killing kids in school with guns and drugs… the more the non believers restrict the rights of the believers the worse shape our country becomes. Like the bible says you forsake me and I shall forsake you… Did you ever stop to think maybe we could become the nation we once were if we stop forsaking God?
What a concept huh??? To have everything you need along with good health and riches from the blessing of the lord just for believing in him and his abilities. I know through God's blessings, my entire family has made it through every hardship that was thrown our way. We all have roofs over our heads, food on our table, clothes on our back, and our health is good! We don't depend on Obama for our needs, we go to the lord with our needs and he provides everything we need, including love!
So, Joe Distefano, I pray for good health for you and your family and that GOD blesses you and your family with all your needs…
So when the majority discriminates against the minority and the minority complains, you're just fine and dandy with the discrimination and call the minority a bunch of whiners. Glad we got that straight about your moral character and compassion. If this were the 60's I suppose you're the type of person who'd be calling African Americans a bunch of whiners for demanding equality during the civil rights movement. This isn't a majority ruled democracy, genius. We're a constitutional republic whether you like it or not.
Just because they got permission to build the cross doesn't make it right, nor does it make it legal, buddy. No idea what gave you the idea I believe in heaven and hell. I'm an Atheist.
Your rights are not being restricted. You NOR I have the right to entangle our "religion" in government-funded public schools or land. Period. You have all the freedom you need to practice your religion in your church and at home, TV stations, radio and I could go on and on, and I support those freedoms for you.
Gosh, it never occurred to me that Christians believe we're forsaking god and we could become the nation we're meant to be if we stop (sarcasm). You Christians only regurgitate that nonsense at us every day.
It's frightening how bad you and many other Christians are at just basic reasoning and research. Do you not have any grasp of correlation vs. causation? You correlate childhood violence with prayer being taken out of schools. Does that mean you have even one ounce of evidence one CAUSED the other? There were only about a hundred other things going on at the same time the Supreme Court ruled against prayer in public schools, like oh, I don't know, the civil rights movement. Why don't you blame childhood violence on the 1960's civil rights movement?
So you have Christian family who made it through hard times. I'm happy for you, but so what? There are plenty of Atheists who've made it through hard times, too.
Joe Distefano=Troll
Jonathan Towers how exactly is he a troll? his posts are pretty dead on actually. Lets see you refute facts? Oh wait, you can't, so you attack.
Jonathan Towers Jonathan Towers = ignoramus. Fool.
Tim Weiler TIm Welier, if you honestly believe that simply by "putting God in schools" is going to somehow "save" this nation, you're either willfully ignorant, ideologically brainwashed, or simply ASININE.
The Religious Right Christian Fascists are so hand-in-glove with the Republicans and their Big Money plutocracy sponsors who are REALLY running this country that "God"–if he existed at ALL–would NEVER even recognize you Conservative "Christians" who claim to know what "God" thinks and wants.
You want to know what's ruining our kids? The lack of parenting and parent-time. And THAT'S because of the need for a two-income house because of the lack of good-paying jobs and the screwing of the Middle Class. You can bitch all you want about your supernatural buddy and stoke your Christian Persecution Complex, but in the end, your "God" will fail and abandon you and yours because you really have no grasp of reality.
Tim Weiler TIm Welier, if you honestly believe that simply by "putting God in schools" is going to somehow "save" this nation, you're either willfully ignorant, ideologically brainwashed, or simply ASININE.
The Religious Right Christian Fascists are so hand-in-glove with the Republicans and their Big Money plutocracy sponsors who are REALLY running this country that "God"–if he existed at ALL–would NEVER even recognize you Conservative "Christians" who claim to know what "God" thinks and wants.
You want to know what's ruining our kids? The lack of parenting and parent-time. And THAT'S because of the need for a two-income house because of the lack of good-paying jobs and the screwing of the Middle Class. You can bitch all you want about your supernatural buddy and stoke your Christian Persecution Complex, but in the end, your "God" will fail and abandon you and yours because you really have no grasp of reality.
The minority discriminates against the majority all the time, look at affirmative action, it gives the minority special rights, just the gays not have special rights, but let a cross appear, and they yell again, always whinners, can't let something good happen without some minority whinning.
Tom Jost, this isn't a matter of "discrimination" or "whining" at all–it's a simple legal distinction. You can't put distinctly sectarian symbols and religious icons on PUBLIC GROUND. This decision has been affirmed time and time again by our nation's courts and is not ambiguous. Why can't you Christians simply commit to following established Law?
Joe Distefano
Joe, if people like you dont like seeing the cross, simply cover your eyes and quit complaining. If athiests want to post something on public land, dont bother me any because who is gonna really pay attention to that? Quit getting your panties twisted and stop acting like a big baby. Thats all that some athiests do is whine, while others for the most part could care less and mind their business.
@Joe, the difference here is the "group" got city approval and went thru the LEGAL proper channels. Who was being discriminated? Discrimination is not a mental aspect, it is the physical aspect of denying someones rights. Who's rights were denied her disparaged here? The Christians were because, under the Constitution, they can exercise their religion, and if they wanted to erect a cross, go thru their municipality to do so and there was no dissent at that point, then guess what, YOU LOSE! Please give me specifics of where "separation of Church and State" is included in The Constitution. And please don't use commentary or writings of Jefferson or other Presidents because they are not validating as law in this country.
Discrimination as define by Webster's Dictionary: "unfair treatment of a person, racial group, minority, etc.; action based on prejudice" So who was unfairly treated here?
Part of whats ruining our kids is the fact the government wants to raise our kids along with all those who never had kids that want to tell us how to raise our kids!! Don't spank them, don't do this, don't do that, give them a time out… yeah ok, I haven't seen a child yet learn anything from a time out other than they can do what they want without any thought to punishment. I'm not saying a child should be beaten, but I can tell you this if my kid ever beat up another kid for NO reason, my child would get a spanking and not a time out! Try putting the parenting back into the parents hands, but on the other hand you have parents that tell their kids to be bullies and beat others up because it is their right to do so without any more than a time out for your behavior!
Well at least I can say that we agree there, Tim. I got my butt "tanned" and it made me think twice. But only up to a certain age. When I reached my teen years, I saw it more as abuse and a giving-up of the struggle for my parents to understand what I was going through as a teen. Now I know they weren't "abusive", but only frustrated with the inability for me to voice my angst. My Dad didn't spank me after I was 13 or so–at that point, being grounded was worse than an heavy hand.
Jonathan Towers He's actually not being a troll. You should look up the definition of Internet troll. Disagreeing with you does not make someone a troll.
Are you Christians so insecure in your beliefs that your churches and homes are not enough, you need to erect your shrines on public property paid for by Christians AND non-Christians? When are you going to learn?
Can you imagine the uproar among Christians if, say, Atheists tried to erect a giant, permanent Atheist monument in front of the courthouse or in a public park? It’d never be allowed. Yet you think it just and fair that only you get to do this? My “religious freedoms” are not being attacked because I can’t erect my “religious” monuments on public land, and neither are yours. Grow up.
Don’t think Christians would have a tantrum if non-Christians try to push their “religious” beliefs in public schools or on public land? How about when Christians were fine with distributing Bibles, but as soon as a Pagan tried to distribute her material, she was DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
Or when Christians distribute their book covers that’s fine, but when Atheists do the same thing, DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Or when there was a vitriolic reaction among Christians when Muslims simply wanted equal treatment by having Korans along with the Bibles that were already being handed out:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
Separation of Church and State protects YOU Christians, too! If you won’t tolerate non-Christian monuments and material at public schools and on public land, why the hell should we tolerate yours?
The power of the cross means salvation to some and fear to others. Interesting how some manage to distort the freedom to express your faith, guaranteed in the USA, to selectively attack the universal symbol of salvation. Christians are under attack throughout the world, sadly the USA is no different.
Considering all the wars, mayhem, misery and intolerance christians have wrought on the world, they richly deserve to be attacked…
Not to mention a thousand years of organized, sanctioned and prolific ritual child rape….
The Christian cross is just a symbol, it has no intrinsic power except that which people decide to believe in. It is also not a universal symbol of salvation; to many populations who have historically suffered because of Christianity (Muslims and Jews during the crusades, Jews during the Spanish Inquisition, native populations in N and S America, etc.) the cross has been a symbol of disease, death and destruction.
Howard, seeing that the three men responsible for the genocide of millions during the last century were all atheists, I can only marvel at your ignorance of history and the root of your own hatred of Christians. Christians have brought more charity, relief and care to the world than the followers of any other faith in the history of this planet. All men are sinners, all men are fallen, and trying to erase a symbol of hope is only going to make things worse. Research the conditions behind the Iron Curtain when they tried to erase Christianity from society and why the Faith has never been erased and is stronger there now than ever.
I assume you're talking about Hitler, Stalin and Mao. But Hitler was not an atheist; he was raised by Catholic parents and although he was not a strong believer as an adult, he did affirm his religious beliefs in his book Mein Kampf and in many public speeches. Stalin was raised as a Russian Orthodox, though he came to think religion was all just mythology that churches used to control people. You might have a point with Mao, but not so much with the other two.
And it seems that you are conveniently forgetting the millions of people in Africa, North America, the Caribbean, and South America especially who were enslaved or murdered over centuries under Christian empires bent on gaining material wealth and power.
Edward, Nazi Germany stood by the teaching that one cannot be a good Christian and a good German. Hitler exterminated Christian clergy in the death camps. He might have paid lip service to Christianity, but that was only to deride the Jewish population. Christianity is based on a relationship that lives in Christ. Acts of genocide and slavery are not Christian acts since they are in direct opposition of the teachings of the Gospel. You or I don't have the ability to judge who is a good Christian, but I at least hope you can tell the difference between Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler, and who better represents the teachings and lifestyle of Jesus Christ.
That's it, FrDeacon, stoke that silly Christian Persecution Complex. Good Lord, what would you Christians do if you didn't spend al day whining about being "under attack"?
That's it, FrDeacon, stoke that silly Christian Persecution Complex. Good Lord, what would you Christians do if you didn't spend al day whining about being "under attack"?
FrDeacon Michael Rutan-Heningham FrDeacon Michael Rutan-Heningham if you're going to spout off about History, please first educate yourself beyond trite slogans. Neither Hitler, Mao, nor Stalin killed ANYONE "for Atheism". There was no ideological reason behind their decidedly POLITICAL motives for whatever pogroms or purges they instituted–uh, unless you count Hitler's decidedly RELIGIOUS motivation for killing Jews, whom he repeatedly vilified from a decidedly CHRISTIAN perspective.
Hitler was not even an atheist, and made MANY proclamations of his Christianity and belief in God, and later, "Providence". No atheist would ever utter such crap. Furthermore, all the men who marched in the Einsatzgruppen "Death Squads" had "Gott Mitt Uns" (God With Us) stamped into their metal belt buckles as they marched the Jews to the pits and the gas chambers. Get your story straight.
Hitler even spoke to a crowd in 1922, saying "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter."
Even though Marxism declares Atheism to be its "official" religion, this style of Atheism is itself POLITICAL in nature; it recognizes Religion as a means by which the lower classes are limited in their potential and IN NO WAY speaks toward any "moral" subjugation or critique; in fact, Marx believed that RELIGION ITSELF was the corrupting influence on Human Beings.
Additionally, whenever you find "official atheism" in dictatorships, what you ALWAYS see instituted in place is a "Cult of Personality" which uses the same trappings of religion–iconography, catechist speeches, repetitive slogans, and a "worshipful" bearing mandated toward the Leader. Religion is eliminated for practical reasons in that religion is the nearest "competition" for the peoples' attention and adulation–which a megalomaniac dictator could not psychologically sanction nor accept.
Edwards Greg
Hitler was may have been raised Catholic, but his actions said otherwise. In his delusional mind, he leaned on his own understanding of things contrary to what the good book says and literally believed that God was on his side, never mind that Hitler cursed the Jews, Gods people, with death and the end result was the price he paid in German blood and the detruction of the Third Reich. He was a personification of evil. Stalin was no different with his murder of millions of Russians. People like to point at the faults of Christianity, and Ill be the first one to say that mans carnal understanding of it made it deviate from its original intent from its founding, with bloodshed and forced conversion reminiscent of the islamists,,,,these were not true Christians and this behavior was not representative of a faith that is about free will and open to anyone who want a change in their life. Christianity was twisted and perverted by vile individuals until the time of the prostestant movement, where it grew and matured. Those in history that killed and pillaged in the name of God were not Christian, just individuals consumed by evil who saw themselves as doing good. Here in America, we have people praying for this nation, and even though there are crosses standing on public land and the opposition being up tight about that, on the flip side of things, there are Christians and other religions in atheist countries like China as well as islamist nations where the display of a cross, possession of a Bible, or congregating to have chuch is banned, and punishable by imprisonment or death. Athiests have done a real good job in those countries and I wouldnt doubt that in time, that will happen here too.
Howard Aubrey but enough about Islam
FrDeacon Michael Rutan-Heningham–Mother Theresa enslaved millions of poor women to poverty and servitude as child-bearing slaves by opposing both contraception and abortion. She deserves NO accolades.
" Acts of genocide and slavery are not Christian acts since they are in direct opposition of the teachings of the Gospel" BULLSHIP! What about JESUS's OWN SAYING affirming Slaves' relationships to their masters? "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
What about your God of the Old Testament genociding whole tribes and peoples and slaughtering whole cities, innocent women and children be damned?
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN RELIGION, POSER!!
Mark Peterson,
They seem to be determined to outdo the warmongering of the christians…
You see, it's not WHICH religion that's the issue, it's religion in general…. they're all about the same….
FrDeacon Michael Rutan-Heningham, Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. Moreover, atheism, spelled with a small 'a', is not a worldview or a belief system with dogmas or tenets, and is instead nothing more than a subgroup of skepticism. Nobody has ever committed an atrocity in the name of not having a worldview. Hitlers worldview was expansionist nationalism, racism, anti-liberalism, anti-Marxism, and, not least, antisemitism, whereas Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao were Marxists. Those worldviews lead them to commit atrocities coupled with the fact that they were just lousy and deluded people. Atheism had nothing to do with it. But hey, just keep on peddling the pious fraud that made your lot famous.
FrDeacon Michael Rutan-Heningham, No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing.
Will we ever start to ignore the tyranny of the minority?
Only if we scrap the constitution….
Clearly, YOU have never read it, or you wouldn't have made such a moronic comment…
So you believe the whining of one single individual should trump those of 1000's? Funny how this only ever applies to Christians, never gays, muslims, or Libtards. Here's a hint: You don't have a Constitutional right to NOT be offended.
Where in the constitution, does it say separation of church and state??????
Jimmy Fisher, isn't it funny how Muslims, Gays, and Liberals are never the ones trying to erect their representative symbols on PUBLIC ground? Yeah, you know, if Christians would just stop trying to force their religion on the rest of us, maybe they wouldn't keep losing these fights?
Tom Jost It says it in the settled lawsuits and decisions of thousands of court rulings since the Constitution was written, Tom. Like it or not, the "Wall" is real.
It's only "forced upon you" if you accept it. If I see a TV commercial (broadcast over "public" airways) that I don't like or agree with, I simply ignore it or change the channel.
Funny thing tolerance…at least with you Libtards, it's a double standard. you insist the rest of us "tolerate" you and your beliefs no matter how twisted, yet you have no tolerance for anyone else' beliefs or feelings on any subject. you're like a bunch of bratty 3rd graders, throwing a hissie fit anytime you don't get your way.
Jimmy, tsk, tsk now, calling names like…..like……well, like a 3rd grader!? (OUCH! That's gotta HURT?!!) Funny thing is, the Law–the Law of this clearly states that you can't put sectarian symbols on public property.
Lemme tell you what's happening, Jimmy. The Christian Fascists who make up the Religious RIght–along with all the so-callled "preachers" out there who are on the big-money gravy train of Religion–are misinforming gullible people like you and the other Christians here by selling you a persecution complex and false impression of what constitutes "religious freedom" as opposed to the Law.
You assume too much.
Don't look at the small picture. The big picture is the small intolerant group telling others what they can and can't do. Start small and pretty soon all christian symbols in this country would be gone except one.
Joe, I want to see you tell the muslims to take down their symbol, the cresent before you called christians insecure.. I'm sure you're also standing up for christians overseas who are killed for their beliefs…
I would be offended by the small intolerant group of Christians who put up this abomination telling me that I need to be "saved" at all by their imaginary friend. I don't want to see their damned cross or need to see their ideology pushed in my face every day that I'm traveling to work or school AND NEITHER DO YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE CHILDREN.
I would be offended by the small intolerant group of Christians who put up this abomination telling me that I need to be "saved" at all by their imaginary friend. I don't want to see their damned cross or need to see their ideology pushed in my face every day that I'm traveling to work or school AND NEITHER DO YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE CHILDREN.
Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz how many churches do you pass on your way to work or school? I'm guessing in your small mind they should be taken down as well so you don't need to see them. I think you are just scared, that come judgement day you will be left behind, or you are hoping that one of your family members or friends are praying for you to be saved at the end. I've known several atheist, some are now true believers in Christ, and others still have their doubts but are at least open minded about the subject. As all of them have told me, unless someone is trying to force the good book down their throat, they could care less about crosses or any other event that is going on. In your eyes its not about the religion, its the HATE in your heart and soul and just needing something to focus and vent your hate on and you selected those who believe in God as your victims.
So Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz I pray you have a wonderful day and that god blesses you with all your needs!
Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz how many churches do you pass on your way to work or school? I'm guessing in your small mind they should be taken down as well so you don't need to see them. I think you are just scared, that come judgement day you will be left behind, or you are hoping that one of your family members or friends are praying for you to be saved at the end. I've known several atheist, some are now true believers in Christ, and others still have their doubts but are at least open minded about the subject. As all of them have told me, unless someone is trying to force the good book down their throat, they could care less about crosses or any other event that is going on. In your eyes its not about the religion, its the HATE in your heart and soul and just needing something to focus and vent your hate on and you selected those who believe in God as your victims.
So Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz I pray you have a wonderful day and that god blesses you with all your needs!
Sigh…..Tim, if I had a dollar for every time a Christian imagined that I was "scared of God", I'd be a rich atheist–who STILL isn't afraid of something that he doesn't believe in. Actually, the fact is that "I" scare YOU. Because you can't imagine that I may be right–that there IS "NO GOD".
Ironic, isn't it, Tim, that you who accuse me of a "small mind" cannot even envision the possibility of an existence without an imaginary friend? What? Who's got the "small mind" now?
And actually, I rather enjoy the architecture of some gorgeous cathedrals. But crosses? Just banal, overdone, boring–and offensive, yes, when they promote that "Jesus fetish" popular among your ilk.
I"m also hip to the insincere tactic of Christians alleging "Atheist conversions"–nonsense. Atheists are–almost as a rule–far more educated and aware of the pitfalls and psychological claptrap, hypocrisies, and abuses of Religion, and usually not susceptible to a regression into religious indoctrination. I take your assertions with extreme cynicism.
To be honest with you, I don't "hate" any Christians. But I am annoyed by the Christian Dominionists and Fascists who feel the need to shove their religion down everyone's throats in this diverse nation of many, and NO, creeds.
Sigh…..Tim, if I had a dollar for every time a Christian imagined that I was "scared of God", I'd be a rich atheist–who STILL isn't afraid of something that he doesn't believe in. Actually, the fact is that "I" scare YOU. Because you can't imagine that I may be right–that there IS "NO GOD".
Ironic, isn't it, Tim, that you who accuse me of a "small mind" cannot even envision the possibility of an existence without an imaginary friend? What? Who's got the "small mind" now?
And actually, I rather enjoy the architecture of some gorgeous cathedrals. But crosses? Just banal, overdone, boring–and offensive, yes, when they promote that "Jesus fetish" popular among your ilk.
I"m also hip to the insincere tactic of Christians alleging "Atheist conversions"–nonsense. Atheists are–almost as a rule–far more educated and aware of the pitfalls and psychological claptrap, hypocrisies, and abuses of Religion, and usually not susceptible to a regression into religious indoctrination. I take your assertions with extreme cynicism.
To be honest with you, I don't "hate" any Christians. But I am annoyed by the Christian Dominionists and Fascists who feel the need to shove their religion down everyone's throats in this diverse nation of many, and NO, creeds.
So you say there is no God. In that are you saying man evolved from apes? If this is so than answer me this…. why do we still have apes? If you try to tell me that man and all creation came from one single organism I will tell you that is physically impossible, no single organism can create things outside its being. You cant take a seed for any plant and grow a animal and you cant take any animal and grow a person. If you don't believe in God or Jesus than thats your belief. However, I know apes are not my ancestors and I have no trace what so ever of ape in my blood or DNA and know for a fact that something with a greater being and mind created this earth and all its inhabitants
Pardon the expression, Tim, but…."good lord"–where did I say ANYTHING about Evolution or "apes"?!! It sounds like an attempt to divert the conversation–but I will indulge you.
I am not comfortable with the "apes" theory; rather, I prefer to say that the jury is out on it. See, that's where you and I differ. Something tells me you NEED to know this for some peace of mind or something–I"m comfortable saying "I don't know, and I don't really care; I came from my parents, that's all that really matters." Where dd we come from? I don't really KNOW—but I don't believe we were created in any "Garden of Eden" and then cast out after a talking snake seduced our girlfriend! Sorry, but the misogynist agenda in that tale is just too much for me to accept.
The best explanation I've heard yet–although admittedly entirely unproven (so I can't assert it dogmatically) is the "Ancient Aliens" theory, where we were purposefully engineered, genetically, from both apes and early humans or possibly even alien ancestors, who made us as a slave race. Did you ever watch the TV series? A fascinating and compelling theory–and one that, if you ask me, is more possible than your Genesis story, because it is Science-based. After all, we DO share more than 97% of our DNA with apes. WHY?!
The issue is the cross is on government land, hence a government endorsement of religion, hence unconstitutional. The town will lose this case if it goes to court. They can "erect" the cross on private land with no problem.
An absolutely proper, legal, and sensible decision. Kudos to the Americans United for Separation of Church and State for this commendable position to stop Christian Fascism in America.
The town should refuse to comply with the God haters, and put it on the ballot. That will shut them up.
Helen, it's already established Law that you can't put sectarian symbols on PUBLIC property.
Well, zz, it should be contested then!
It HAS been, Helen. In MANY court rulings, the law has been upheld. WHY don't you know this? This is not "revisionist history"! This is contemporaneous, easily-accessible knowledge!
To shut them up all they have to do is sell that few square feet of property to the group that built the cross. Than even zzzzzzzzzzzz here cant complain any more since it will than be private property. Oh and the town can actually sell that piece of land for $1 if they so see fit to do so. Than the haters can cry all they want to no avail! LOL
To shut them up all they have to do is sell that few square feet of property to the group that built the cross. Than even zzzzzzzzzzzz here cant complain any more since it will than be private property. Oh and the town can actually sell that piece of land for $1 if they so see fit to do so. Than the haters can cry all they want to no avail! LOL
Christians lose another one: July 19, 2012.
The Enfield, Conn., Board of Education has agreed not to hold graduations in a Bloomfield church in order to settle a lawsuit filed by Americans United, the American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Connecticut.
The three organizations filed suit against the Enfield Board of Education in May 2010 on behalf of two students and three parents who objected to holding the graduations of Enfield and Fermi high schools at the First Cathedral in Bloomfield, arguing that doing so violated the First Amendment guarantees of religious liberty.
“Holding a public school graduation in an intensely religious environment such as First Cathedral communicates a message of religious favoritism to students and parents,” said Americans United Associate Legal Director Alex J. Luchenitser. “We’re pleased that Enfield students will no longer have to choose between submitting to an unwelcome religious environment and missing their graduation ceremonies.”.
Dear Christians as these cases are cropping up all over America from the belly of tryanny, we need to contribute as much monies as we can to groups like Jay Sekulow's ACLJ. He has beaten many cases in the Supreme Court. United we stand. Divided we fall. We are in active warfare.
Paula, you would think that a "Christian" like you would recognize the pressing and urgent need to contribute "as much monies as we can" to institutions and programs that clothe and feed the Poor and Needy–but no; you want to give it to LAWYERS?!? And to fight what–something that is already ESTABLISHED LAW and–more importantly—SUPPORTED BY THE 1ST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION!!?
Can you understand why so many people can't stand today's "Christians"? Look in the mirror….
Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz Your harsh reply only underlines the need for Christians to unite against such judgement and tyranny. Your interpretation of the Constitution has never been supported by precedent of all the preceeding courts until Socialism took over the mindset of the Governement in the 1950s. Christians have always been in the forefront of the battle to feed and shelter the poor and needy. But todays poor and needy are those who throw personal responsibility away, the drug addicted, the unmarried mothers, the illegal immigrants.
Paula, I dare you to point out WHERE EXACTLY my "harsh reply only underlines the need for Christians to unite against such judgement and tyranny"?!?!
Why? Because I called you out on your hypocrisy and insincere "values"?!
How disgustingly CONVENIENT it is for you to label, caricature and dismiss the Poor and Needy as " those who throw personal responsibility away, the drug addicted, the unmarried mothers, the illegal immigrants"!!! Really? Where's your PROOF that this constitutes some dubious majority of the Poor? Did "Jesus" tell you that?! Did not Jesus embrace the Adulteress? Did he not say "Love one another as I have loved you"?!! Where does YOUR stinted cynicism fit into Christianity and Jesus' message?
CHRISTIANS LIKE YOU DESERVE TO BE CENSURED AND CENSORED! Your kind make me SICK.
Censured & censored? Is that not the very heart of tyranny? Where is tryanny any part of our Constitution. Oh and by the way the verse you quote about 'that money could be given to the poor', is a quote of Judas Iscariot. The very one who betrayed our Lord.
I didn't quote that verse, Paula–you did. And you've conveniently ignored the crux of my argument, and the point about Jesus.
When people such as you cynically twist and pervert the message of love and acceptance that your OWN religion supposedly promotes, and turns it into something so cynically self-serving and vile, THAT is the "very HEART of tyranny".
Seriously, Paula–LOOK IN THE MIRROR!
Jesus NEVER taught acceptance. He only taught repentance.
You're full of bull-doody. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". WHAT is that if NOT "acceptance? Well now, you've got all your conscience-dodges down pat inside your head, don't you, Paula?
All in all, a pretty disheartening debate with an old coot whom I would have thought had lived enough years to actually KNOW what Christianity and the message of Jesus meant. You need to go back to Bible school, Paula.
You need to read the whole verse. After showing her mercy, Jesus then commands her to SIN NO MORE.
Paula, you're trying to avoid the heart of the matter. Jesus urged the angry mob to have tolerance toward a sinner, and to extend mercy toward her. Also, did not Jesus initiate a conversation with a Samaritan woman in Sychar, Samaria? Jews normally treated Samaritans with contempt. Jews did not have dealings with them, because they had deviated from Judaism. Yet Jesus not only spoke to her but Jesus sat and spoke to her. That's "tolerance". THAT's "what Jesus would do".
Yet you twist your Christianity to suit your own agenda and preconceived prejudices–a pretty poor example of a Christian you are—but entirely typical, these days.
Stop digging yourself a hole, Paula, and look inside yourself and ask yourself how and why you've become so jaded and hateful that you would judge and condemn an entire group of unfortunate, miserable people who have done nothing to you. What good is your "Christianity" if it fails in its most essential purpose–to make you more "like Jesus"?
John 8:11 CSB "No one, Lord," she answered. "Neither do I condemn you," said Jesus. "Go, and from now on do not sin anymore." ]
Matthew 3:8 CSB Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance
What is wrong with repentance? Why do you call repentance hating sinners?
Paula, your attempt to deflect the subject away from your own perverted Christianity and failed understanding of the inclusivity and mercy of Jesus' message is embarrassing–or a least it SHOULD be to you. You know that NOWHERE did I equate repentance with "hating sinners". You're simply making things up to deflect the conversation because your conscience cannot reconcile the fact that you are a hypocrite, and that your words are a direct contradiction of the "values" that you imagine that you possess—but in fact do NOT.
Why don't you just admit the obvious–that you tried–but FAILED MISERABLY–to excuse your own private prejudice by using your flawed understanding of your religion?
Everybody sees you, Paula. You have no clothes behind which to hide in this debate. The only one who refuses to see you is YOU.
And what construct do you put on the Syro-Pheonecian woman who Jesus refused to talk to and called a dog? Only after she admitted she was a dog did Jesus work with her. It never ceases to amaze me how atheists always seem to know more about our religion than we do.
Paula, it's apparent in this case that you do NOT know your religion very well! The term is correctly was the diminutive "little dog" and thus refers to the woman's position of submission and dependence, rather than being a pejorative term.
In any case, I'm not going to get into a tit-for-tat argument on scripture with you. If you're trying to claim that you have Biblical support for being a prejudicial bigot, then you understand neither what "Jesus" nor your Christianity was supposed to mean.
Yes, Paula–you just got "schooled" on the Bible by an atheist.
2 Corinthians 4:4 NLT
Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
You don't understand Christianity because satan is your god. How can you teach anyone?
Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz
The following Bible verses show that we are not to associated with those given to incontinence which is another word for adultery and sexual promiscuity. How then can your interpretation of the Samaritan woman and the woman caught in adultery be true?
2nd Timothy 3:1 Know also this, that in the last days shall come dangerous times. 2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3 Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4 Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasure more than of God: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid
I'm not going to indulge you in endless debates about scripture, Paula. You phony-Christians are remarkably adept at hiding in your scriptural trash when you've been exposed for the hypocrites that you are.
If Satan existed at all, he'd be proud of you for the lies that you live by and the lies that you tell.
As for me, I see you for your true colors. PHONY.
Maybe phony to your values, but not phony to my beloved book of Scripture.
Why not put it up for a vote? Why should one person be allowed to decide what the town does?
Because you don't "vote" on what is already established LAW, Jeanette.