Jun 12, 2012
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The U.S. Military has revoked its approval of a series of military-themed Bibles, reportedly over trademark issues. Now, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation is demanding that all remaining versions of the Bibles be removed from base exchanges — calling them a “threat to national security.”
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The military series of Bibles were published by B&H Publishing, a division of LifeWay Christian Resources of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation’s largest non-Catholic denomination. They published four versions of the Holman Christian Standard Bible – representing the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps.
The Bibles are tailored to each specific military branch. For example, the cover of the Marine version says “The Marines’ Bible” – along with the USMC emblem. The Bibles contain special prayers and devotional material for military personnel.
But the Military Religious Freedom Foundation complained that the Bibles were an official endorsement by the U.S. Military. They alleged the Bibles not only violated the U.S. Constitution, but also violated Defense Department regulations.
“It totally savages one of the most basic Department of Defense regulations that exists,” spokesman Mikey Weinstein told Fox News Radio. “It does not allow the endorsement of a non-federal entity by the Department of Defense.”
Weinstein said nearly 2,000 service members contacted his organization to complain about the Bibles; some of those critics were “terrified to try to go up the chain of command,” he said.
“This raised fears among military personnel that, in the words of an anonymous U.S. Air Force Judge Advocate, it was a ‘big step towards establishing the Holman Christian Standard Bible as the official religious text of the military services of the United States.”
A LifeWay spokesman told Fox News Radio that they received authorization to use the official seals of the military branches in 2003.
“We received notice last year from the various branches withdrawing authorization,” the spokesman said. “After selling existing inventory of those bibles, B&H replaced the official seals with generic insignias which continue to sell well and provide spiritual guidance and comfort to those who serve.”
The Department of Defense stressed that the revocation was solely a trademark issue and had absolutely nothing to do with religion. A spokesperson said those decisions are typically left up to the indivdual branches of the military.
The Army & Air Force Exchange Service told Fox News Radio they have 961 copies of the Bible on shelves at 83 facilities.
A Navy official told Fox News that their trademark licensing program was revamped in late 2011. They reviewed all their standing trademark agreements and applied new standards.
The Navy said LifeWay was notified on Feb. 15 that their previous approval did not meet the standards of the new rules. They said that the revocation had nothing to do with religion and said the changes were “driven by internal forces.”
However, the MRFF is taking credit for the revocation.
“If their logos are being placed on a particular version of Christianity – particularly when we are engaged in a war with fundamentalist Muslims that are trying to view this as a cosmic war between Jesus and Allah – it’s a security threat,” he said. “It’s neither a problem, it’s not an issue or a challenge. It’s a national security threat.”
According to a letter from the chief of the Air Force Trademark Licensing Program, the Air Force withdrew LifeWay’s authority to use their trademarks in 2011. The Air Force did allow LifeWay to deplete its existing stock through ongoing sales.
Weinstein said his organization had absolutely no problem with regular Bibles being sold at base stores, but he said the military-themed Bibles were in violation of the law.
“The Bible by itself is fine to be sold,” Weinstein told Fox News Radio. But he said they also want the remaining stock removed from base stores.
“Replace those Bibles with those that don’t have the emblems,” he said.
Ron Crews, executive director of the Chaplain Alliance for Religious Liberty, told Fox News he was extremely disappointed in the decision to remove the military edition Bibles from exchange stores — and called the move “cowardly.”
“These Bibles cost the Department of Defense nothing, and their presence is legally legitimate,” Crews said. “Therefore, no reason exists for the DoD to retreat in the face of the small anti-religious group that demanded removal of the Bibles.”
Crews pointed out that military personnel dating back to General George Washington have taken counsel and been encouraged by biblical texts.
“Why should these Bibles be removed because of the demands of a small activist group,” he asked. “The MFRR must cease and desist their reckless assault on religious liberty.”
He also called on Congress to investigate what he called “this frivolous threat and cowardly response by the DoD.”
FOX News Talk
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.
Thanks Ben, every story about religion on Fox has dozens of people quoting the First Amendment. We know what it says, thank you. How does it apply to this story? It doesn't. The military is not a religious institution, it is a government institution. It's members are from all walks of life, and belong to many different religions. There are atheists in the military as well. Why is the military in the business of endorsing bibles? Are they doing the same thing with other religious texts for the members of the armed forces of other religions? If not, then this is a government-based endorsement of a particular religion and runs afoul of the first amendment that you so aptly copied and pasted above.
Thanks Ben, every story about religion on Fox has dozens of people quoting the First Amendment. We know what it says, thank you. How does it apply to this story? It doesn't. The military is not a religious institution, it is a government institution. It's members are from all walks of life, and belong to many different religions. There are atheists in the military as well. Why is the military in the business of endorsing bibles? Are they doing the same thing with other religious texts for the members of the armed forces of other religions? If not, then this is a government-based endorsement of a particular religion and runs afoul of the first amendment that you so aptly copied and pasted above.
I believe that you are misunderstanding my post, people seems to think that the government and people of the US are two different things . The US government is the people by the people and for the people , the US Marines are owned by the people of the US and the US government that is owned and payed for by the people of the US does not have a right to make a decision on religious matters without the approval of the US people Thiis is the problem of everything that is going on in this country, this country is the people of the US not the elected persons
I believe that you are misunderstanding my post, people seems to think that the government and people of the US are two different things . The US government is the people by the people and for the people , the US Marines are owned by the people of the US and the US government that is owned and payed for by the people of the US does not have a right to make a decision on religious matters without the approval of the US people Thiis is the problem of everything that is going on in this country, this country is the people of the US not the elected persons
Noe the part about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof". God bless.
Noe the part about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof". God bless.
Yep. This gives the PEOPLE the right to practice their religion. This expressly forbids the GOVERNMENT from endorsing any one religion or religion over non-religion. Separation of Church and State, Ben. Military made the correct call here.
Joe Gonzalez Perhaps you should explain to the members of the Chaplain Corps why they should all be fired and be replaced by political and morale officers.
Hey Nick,why don't you go out to the closest cemetery and take a look at all those crosses of soldiers that gave their life and shed their blood,defending your freedoms.Do those crosses offend you?I hope they do
does not say separation of church and state
This is just some more of the same snake. Creeping sharia.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation is spot on. The United States government and military should represent us all, and the best way to do that is remain neutral. They should not give the appearance of preferring or endorsing any religion or stance on religion, whether it be Atheism, Christianity, or Islam.
You all know darn well many Christians would be outraged if the U.S. Navy (or other) approved for their emblem to be stamped on the cover of Dawkin’s The God Delusion or the Koran. You cannot make the case that it’s fair or right for their emblem to be placed on the Bible and not these other books. Why do so many Christians think they need the U.S. government to put their stamp of approval on their religion? I thought your religion is supposed to be between you and your god.
Joe I especially like that the complaints came from "nearly 2,000 service members" from within the ranks of the military instead of from some outside group. It demonstrates exactly your point, that these members were feeling unrepresented and discriminated against.
Joe I especially like that the complaints came from "nearly 2,000 service members" from within the ranks of the military instead of from some outside group. It demonstrates exactly your point, that these members were feeling unrepresented and discriminated against.
You and joe are both full of kkrap! This is just another case of minorities ruling the majority. The intent is to protect the minority; it is NOT THE INTENT TO ALLOW SOME DUMBAZZZED MINORITIES TO RULE OVER THE MAJORITY.
Mr. Weaver, that's quite a pathetic rebuttal. You didn't refute my argument about fairness. How is it fair for the U.S. military to approve its emblems be stamped on the Christian Bible and not other religious texts such as the Koran? You know darn well most Americans, esp. Christians, would not allow it if Muslims tried.
And explain exactly how the minority is ruling over the majority, please. NONE of us, whether we’re Atheists, Muslims, or Jews get to have the U.S. military put their stamp on our books, either!
How is keeping the U.S. military neutral and thus treating everyone (including you) equally mean you are being ruled over?
Hey dipshit, they allow the KORAN. STFU you leftist pig.
The Marine Corps emblem does not belong to the government, but the people of the United States. A Bible for Marines should be produced by the Corps, as part of their spiritual obligation to what the Supreme Court has termed "a separate society," but since they do not, any private religious organization is free to do so. As far as your fallacious comments about the reactions of Christians, why would Christians care about one of Dawkins' irrational books? And as far as putting the logo on the Quran…Muslims like to kill people for such things (many things or for no reason at all, it's the way they roll) so I guess we would have a reason to call them "leathernecks" again if they were to as you suggest.
Joe, you're wrong! I use the Eagle, Globe and Anchor on my business cards…is that an official USMC endorcement of my company. I served, I'm proud…It's a symbol. Here is the other issue…The EGA doesn't belong to the US Govt; it belongs to the countless men and women who earned the right to wear it, and then spilt their blood to defend it. I am so sick of everybody and their mama being offended…Well, I'm offend Damn it. I'm offended that I don't recognize the country I served to defend or the corp I swore to protect and honor. I am offened. I wish all the left wing liberals would go dive off a cliff. God help this nation…It has lost its soul.
Well assclown, I mean Joe, since you are all about fairness then why don't you write your own "I'm going to burn in hell and just because my life sucks I am going to try and make everybody miserable." book and on the cover why not pick a branch of service… Fair is fair, I agree…
Ralph, wrong. Whether you say the Marine Corps or we the people own the emblem, it doesn't change the fact that trademark licensing only allows the Marine Corps to approve the emblem for use on products, the Marine Corps is funded by Congress, and their actions are bound by the First Amendment. Therefore, the Marine Corps cannot approve the emblem for use on religious texts such as the Koran or Bible.
And NO, for the same reason the Marine Corps is not allowed to produce a Bible. Religious groups or churches, on the other hand, are perfectly free to produce a Bible for Marines, Marines are free to buy these Bibles, and I fully support their right to do this.
NO, the Marine Corps cannot make any spiritual obligation for Marines. Marines, on the other hand, are perfectly free to establish their own PERSONAL spiritual obligations.
My comments about what Christians’ reactions would be to Dawkins’ The God Delusion with a Marine Corps emblem are not fallacious. Christians would not stand for it. It’s a virtual certainty based off how they react to other, similar cases. For example, they were happy to hand out Bibles in tax-payer public school, but as soon as a Pagan tried to hand out Pagan spell books, she was shut down:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
If you want more cases like this, you can find them with a simple Google search. Inform yourself, sir.
It’s also quite nice how you stereotype Muslims as killing people for such things. Is this what you think Muslim Americans are like? Oh, you’re referring to “Muslims” in other parts of the world, are you? How about them “Christians” in Nigeria burning children alive they believe to be witches?
Maybe you should read the constitution and look up the concept of tyranny of the majority. The constitution was written to prevent that, otherwise the majority would be able to just vote away people's rights. But I'm guessing that wouldn't be a problem to you, since you feel you have the country on your side and are in a majority.
How can you trust people that have no moral standard to tell the truth. There weren't 2000, that is just a number they dreamed up to give validity to their hatred of people of faith.
PLUS– NOBODY was forcing ANYBODY to take a Bible if they didn't want one.
Joe, how about removing the star od David and crosses from national cemetaries while ur at it?
As a veteran and a Christian, if Muslims wanted to do it, they're more than welcome to do it. Nowhere does it say on this book that it is sponsored by the US Military. If we are to be that way about it then we need to take down beer signs at special military events to prevent the impression that the particular brand is sponsored by the US Military. Maybe we can close all the food establishments on bases as well. We can get into all kinds of discussions on this topic.
This is not about the US Government sponsoring religion because personally, I don't want them to sponsor or enforce any religion. If these Bibles were published by the Government then I could see your point. If you don't want a Bible with a military logo on it…don't buy it.
Hey Joe,
what if the Iranian Army were told they couldn't carry a copy of a Koran into service?As one who both is prior military and a minister of the Gospel,I find your argument ludicrous.I'm betting my life you never defended this great country.You are simply trying to defend your godless life and spiritual bankruptcy.
Please, Mr. Distefano, its easy to argue a negative. What book would an atheist offer to be printed with the emblem of their respective service? Has a publisher of the Koran asked to print a similar themed Koran and been denied? I served with several Muslims who were forthright and honest about their views, it isn't a religion that encourages such displays.
To me, this is similar to the argument about gay and lesbian service members. For me? I don't care at all who you choose to be with, or what creed or lack of it you follow so long as you keep your head on straight and pull security like everyone else.
Leon, great question. That's different. I support your right and Jews' right to put the star of David and crosses on graves at the cemetary. That's fine. Now if the cemetary is going to erect a giant cross or Atheist scarlet letter"A" at the entrance to the cemetary to give the appearance the entire cemetary is a Christian (or Atheist) cemetary, then I object on First Amendment grounds. Get it?
Nice job, John. comparing our country to a theocracy. Is that what you really wanted?
Nice job, John. comparing our country to a theocracy. Is that what you really wanted?
John, are you suggesting America be more like Iran, a theocracy? Well, if we were a theocracy with your version of Christianity, you'd like that wouldn't you?
Besides, your analogy doesn't even make sense. This article has nothing to do with American soldiers' right to carry a Bible. They are free to carry a Bible, and they should be free to do so.
John Buchanan, if you find my argument ludicrous, then explain HOW it's ludicrous. Otherwise your assessment is totally useless, sir.
If by "never defended this great country" you mean I've never served in the military, that is true. Plenty of Christians who come to these forums and debate have never served in the military, either. So what the hell is your point?
And my Atheist and Humanist life is enriching, not bankrupt, thank you very much.
Joe….respectfully, the fair dinstinction you must accept is that my simple freedom of being able to purchase a bible with the eagle globe and anchor I earned and am proud of has been taken away. Think about that for a minute. I am an american fighting man, I think that cover is amazing, I love the emblem being on there also, but now I cannot purchase one. This may seem small to you, however I do not feel so. The chaplains are currently under extreme attack and will be removed next, the chapels after that….This is all about the slippery slope….take a moment and think on my side of the slope.
Pat Lenney, I can somewhat sympathize with you no longer being able to buy a bible with the official U.S. military emblem, but you and I are still being treated equally this way. I, too, cannot get the emblem on my Atheist books. It’d be different if the military didn’t put a trademark on these emblems. Then we’d all be able to use them freely.
I don’t agree this is a slippery slope. I will fight for our service members’ right to have chaplains and chapels. We can’t take that away from them. How else would they have that need met, especially when abroad? Perhaps the only thing that needs to change is “chapels” need to be neutral and chaplains will increasingly need to be ready to assist a more diverse group, including Atheist service members.
When you understand the message conveyed in the New Testament, you should realize participating in the Military cannot be undertaken while still claiming to be a Christian aka "Christ follower"… So unless your envision "Jesus" taking someone out with a rocket propelled grenade..You may possibly want to rethink your strategy.. So yes it is deffenately a threat to national security because it entails people actually having faith in God and not the Sword..
When you understand the message conveyed in the New Testament, you should realize participating in the Military cannot be undertaken while still claiming to be a Christian aka "Christ follower"… So unless your envision "Jesus" taking someone out with a rocket propelled grenade..You may possibly want to rethink your strategy.. So yes it is deffenately a threat to national security because it entails people actually having faith in God and not the Sword..
Ok not that gets me, How dare you infer that a Christian cannot be a Christ follower and have a good testimony while being a military member. I met many people and know some who have been in the services and today still hold to be Christian. I was in the Air Force for 20 years and have met hundreds of Christians throughout the 20 years that I was in. And lastly I am a prime example. I was praised for being a sound moral man of my word and a man of faith (which I say humbly today, it was for the cause of Christ not for my own praise) yet in my last base I carried two guns one for close quarters combat and one for long range possible gun battles. Joshua you are way over the line on this statement way over the line.
Sorry, I guess I feel like people are being mislead more than anything…Not saying at all there are not Christians is the military…Just misinformed ones, I served 11 years USMC myself. Took awhile for me to see the truth of Jesus's words.. My statement was meant as a wake up call not an attack though..
You know, there was more than just taxes being spoken of in the "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."
Did Christ ask the centurion to give up his profession so that his daughter would be healed?
As a Special Tactics airman I have taken life, but I never viewed my profession as life-taking, neither do most men and women in our military. All the jumped up, football-coach, Patton-style crap is precisely that: crap. Christ would have perfectly understood the sacrifice of the few so the many would be able to live in peace. Was that not Christ's goal?
Show me one verse of scripture in the New Testament that justify's war…
I don't belong to Caesar…I belong to God
If you believe in just war doctrine that's on you, but, I think you seriously have to question what a just war is especially with a Government that dosen't have to tell you the truth about why they choose war if it is deemed "threat to national security"… I guess I have a problem with trusting the same government that throws out all aspects of Christianity from Government. I think this is called the spirit of the Anti-Christ in the bible…That apparently is also getting thrown out..
Please don't get me wrong. I respect your beliefs and admire your adherence to them. Indeed, I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree. However,before calling our Christian troops mislead, please find me a scriptural reference, in context, that shows the soldier's profession as being contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
It also says if you truly follow Jesus…You WILL be persecuted. All wars are about Power and Money and lust of the heart, also stated in the bible. None of these are principles of Christian conduct according to Jesus…
http://monicks.net/2009/09/12/11-things-the-bible-bans-but-you-do-anyway/
For although we are in the flesh, we do not battle according to the flesh, we do not battle according to the flesh, for the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of desrtoying fortresses. We destroy arguments and every pretension raising itself against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive in obedience to Christ, and we are ready to punish every disobedience, once your obedience is complete. 2 Cor 10:3
Do violence to no man. Luke 3:14
Do violence to no man. Luke 3:14
Do violence to no man. Luke 3:14
Where do the wars and where do the conflicts among you come from? Is it not from your passions that make war within your members? You covet but do not possess. You kill and envy but you cannot obtain; you fight and wage war. You do not possess because you do not ask. You ask but do not receive because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. Do you not know that to love the world means enmity with God? Therfore, whoever wants to be a lover of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:1
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible on your part live at peace with all. Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for wrath; for it is written, "Vengence is mine, I will repay says the Lord." Rather, "if your enemy is hungary, feed him; if he is thirsty feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing so you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good.
Romans 12:17
Christ's goal was the fullfillment of God's plan, and Christ stated that peace and union with God was the fulfillment of God's plan according to revelation. Christ states that peace will not come by the sword, but by obidience to God and his word. Wars according to revelation must happen, however, it does not say that Christians must partake in them..
You are the typical legalistic type of self-professing christian who turns other people away from Christianity, with your quote's of scriptures over and over while pointing out the behaviors of others. To say that You believe in total adherence to and obedience to the word of GOD, and then to participate in the worship of a 'football team' is just exactly what the Pharisee's did to Jesus, while He was in human flesh on earth…You see Joshua Carroll, I looked at what You are interested in on your 'facebook'…Maybe just maybe, You are participating in idol worship…?? Take a look at the beam in your own eye, before pointing out the toothpick in the Christian Military Men and Women eyes.
He asked for the scripture references… And I read your article and it more than likely was written by someone who is either athiest or not very ve.rsed in the bible because most of those don't even apply with God's new Covenant. We are all sinners and will remain so until christ's return.. The point is following Christ the best you possibly can, and I believe some Cristians are being "mislead" into disobeying Christ without there awarness of it. I am trying to bring "awareness" by my statement…
I was never claiming to be perfect Cherie, I simply want to give other Christians knowledge that they may not be following Christ's commands while they are being told Job well done and Good Job.
I have the utmost respect for Military personel who chose to sacrifice for a greater good, like I said I served for 11 years.. I respect the act but not the cause..
or the effect for that matter..
And Idol worship isn't disobeying Christ…??
Am I worshiping an idol? And yes it is…
What Branch of the 'Service' did You 'Serve' in Joshua Carroll, what was your 'MOS' and did You 'Serve' in any War on the 'Battlefield'…??
Usmc, 5811 Military Police, and Yes Iraq 2 deployments..
You? I see your versed in the lingo?
and yes I was outside the wire, pretty much the whole time getting hit with IED's and mortared like everyone else..
And why did we go again? Chemical/Bio Weapons that were never found? So since someone had a hunch which was wrong that made it a just war? Dis you know we just got rid of our last chemical weapons about 6 months ago? So we make war with a country for possesing something we have…?? Dosen't sound too just to me…
So is it safe to say that You are ashamed of your USMC 'Service' in Iraq…Why no photos of You, at least in Dress USMC uniform…??
You hit it on the head..Yes I am ashamed and no pictures because I also have ptsd and the less memories the better..
I know alot of Military personnel including my U.S. Army Son, who have severe PTSD and they aren't afraid to post a photo of themselves in DRESS Uniform.
Yes but he probably dosen't have the same convictions I do now about it, but I am sorry to hear about your son, It has affected me in so many ways so I know what it is like, especially people who don't understand it. This is another reason I am unhappy with the Military because of the mental health care provided, long story short, I had to get my Congressman involved for Military Health "professianals" to do thier job.. I should add these people were not very professianal in the least..
(professional) – that is
What years did You 'Serve' in the USMC, Joshua ?
Joshua, I'm sorry that You suffer so much…I'll pray for You.
Thank You, Sep 2001 – Feb 2012…And I will likewise
Thank You, too.
A Co 1/5 ..0311…….What MOS & unit were you assigned to Joshua Carroll ?
I wouldn't call using Bio/Chem on your own people a hunch or a lie, plus in the desert things can get covered quickly and degrade about the same amount of time. As for you quoting scriptures then I guess you would call, John Hancock, George Washington and all our forefathers terrorists. And in the Civil War days we should have let the south have thier way and promote slavery(Which for other eyes that may want to jump on this point was far different then the slavery in the Bible) See Joshua we can debate this all day long, not only was I in the Air Force but I am part of the Lords Army as well. Granted we need to turn the other cheek and treat others as God would want us to. However we also need to keep law and order, thank God for Police officers who stand between my wife, son and I and the common crook, drug dealer, murderer, rapist burglar of all shapes and sizes. As for the Iraq and Afghan war they attacked us, Ok not Iraq but Afghan aided terrorist that attacked us and the Taliban held to a strict enforcement of Islamic law the strictist (Women have no rights whatsoever type of law) As for Iraq, the people were not allowed to be anything but Islamic or secular Islamic, no Christianity which now missionaries are being allowed to preach the Gospel, yes it took war to do that but we as Christians are told to spread the Gospel. I admire your zeal but you have to completely understand the issue of war and why it is needed. I am no war monger but what would the consequences of us not defending ourselves?
BTW. Thank you for serving, your sacrifice has preserved my freedoms and for that I am most appreciative.
Crack reporting as usual Fox News. The MRFF isn't an atheist group. Mr Weinstein is Jewish, and many other pastors/religious men sit upon it's board. The fact that you didn't bother to check that out, (or more likely ignored it and thought that labeling it as an evil atheist organization was a better headline), or that you have an issue with the Constitution being enforced speaks to your credibility as a news outlet.
Crack reporting as usual Fox News. The MRFF isn't an atheist group. Mr Weinstein is Jewish, and many other pastors/religious men sit upon it's board. The fact that you didn't bother to check that out, (or more likely ignored it and thought that labeling it as an evil atheist organization was a better headline), or that you have an issue with the Constitution being enforced speaks to your credibility as a news outlet.
If they work for the spread of atheism, then their group, is atheist regardless of their own meager claims.
Except this isn't "spreading" anything. Only upholding the constitution and the first amendment.
How is neutrality spreading atheism? You see anything but complete deference and endorsement od Christianity as spreading atheism? Explain that one to us.
You talk about enforcing the Constitution @ Scott Williams? Why don't you talk to President Obama about HIM obeying the Constitution? You liberal whackjobs are all the same! Riding around on your high horse, telling everyone how to think and act and that we are to accept your Sodom and Gomorrah ways.
Ha Ha you just could not get enough on the classifieds could you???…had to get some more started your way too silly!
Christina Marrujo oh this is nearly a daily thing here on my page
hehe
@Reginald Wayne McCray – As opposed to you religious whack jobs thinking you have the ordained right of an imaginary god to tell everyone how to think and act? I know it's a difficult concept for feeble minds that believe in make believe sky daddies to comprehend, but read your First Amendment again. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…" by allowing the military logos to be printed on those bibles, Federally funded military logos, you are in essence endorsing that book and the content inside. Why is that fair or representative of the non-believing soldiers in that particular branch of service…or the Muslim soldiers, or the Buddhist soldiers, etc… Would you be okay with a Quar'an printed and distributed with the military logos on it? Nobody is telling you what to think…that is your right. But how to act? How about acting in the fair and just way for all. For all races, genders and religions? That wasn't being done here and that is all the MRFF wanted to see happen.
Ralph Vaughan they are not spreading atheism. http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/ 96% of the clients the MRFF serves are christian: The Military Religious Freedom Foundation is dedicated to ensuring that all members of the United States Armed Forces fully receive the Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom to which they and all Americans are entitled by virtue of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
that means that all Christian members of varying belief systems and practices should not be forced by their chain of command to conform to the command's beliefs and practices. that means that nonchristians also should not be harassed by the command regarding their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
Ralph Vaughan
Therefore, MRFF holds that:
No religion or religious philosophy may be advanced by the United States Armed Forces over any other religion or religious philosophy.
No member of the United States Armed Forces may be compelled in any way to conform to a particular religion or religious philosophy.
No member of the United States Armed Forces may be compelled in any way to witness or engage in any religious exercise.
No member of the military may be compelled to curtail – except in the most limited of military circumstances and when it directly impacts military discipline, morale and the successful completion of a specific military goal – the free exercise of their religious practices or beliefs.
Students at United States military academies are entitled to the same Constitutional rights pertaining to religious freedoms and the free exercise of those freedoms to which all other members of the United States Armed Forces military are entitled.
No member of the military may be compelled to endure unwanted religious proselytization, evangelization or persuasion of any sort in a military setting and/or by a military superior or civilian employee of the military.
The full exercise of religious freedom includes the right not to subscribe to any particular religion or religious philosophy. The so-called “unchurched” cede no Constitutional rights by want of their separation from organized faith.
It is the responsibility of the military hierarchy to ensure that the free exercise of religious freedoms of all enlisted personnel are respected and served.
All military personnel have the right to employ appropriate judicial means to protect their religious rights.
Here Christina
Ha Ha who knew more than I existed…Ha Ha..Hey a girl has to make it somehow why not with personality???
…XOXOXO…C
Ralph Vaughan Take some time and learn the difference between atheism and secularism. If the government was promoting atheism, they'd be putting the military stamp on a book that claims there is no god. Or maybe the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Secular means neutral. I don't want the government endorsing Christianity. I don't want the government endorsing Judiasm. I don't want the government endorsing Atheism. I don't want the government endorsing ANY RELIGION AT ALL.
I don't get this need some social conservatives have for this to be a 'christian nation'. Can't you just be happy enough having the freedom to practice your religious beliefs? In this country, all religions are allowed and respected, no matter how ridiculous or far fetched they may be. No need to force it on others, that violates our religious freedom!
I can explain a little although I am half if not a quarter of your age…Have you seen Heaven…because so far I have not….Have you not gone through Hell and only asked for Jesus, other than when you needed something, if not you have not lived your life!!! You or your family have bought your way though it….Life leaves scars…dollar signs come and go….XOXOXOXOXOXO…C
One should ask the good pastor, if it's not about the military endorsing his religion, why does he consider the removal of a government insignia a problem? Bibles still get sold and aren't banned, just one small group can't use the insignia any more.
The point is that when you remove the rights of one issue to be used, the next right to be dismissed comes easily.
We can see this best in the argument of the Affordable Care Act. Does congress have the right to require people to buy something. The Sureme Court has ruled for CCongress in so many Commerce cases the Congress is using that precedent to force people to buy something or pay a fine, which they also called a tax. That is after the lower courts ruled against them about the penalty portion.
Only using this example since it is main headline news.
If allowed, we could be buying car insurance or house/renters insurance to help defray the cost to those who wont buy it but may get injured and sue the uninsured. May sound fanciful, but look beyond and to Europe for the next big issue.
The two issues are not even remotely related. This is a religious endorsement issue and nothing else. No one has or will attempt to get bibles banned from the military because it is not only NOT what secularists want, it's completely unconstitutional. Congrats trying to conflate the two, but it is not defensible.
One should ask the good pastor, if it's not about the military endorsing his religion, why does he consider the removal of a government insignia a problem? Bibles still get sold and aren't banned, just one small group can't use the insignia any more.
Let the Atheist promote their own bible or sacred humanistic readings along with the Koran and all others. fact is they don't do it. Instead when a Christian organization puts one out then the people get all hot and bothered about it. I see no problem or conflict of interest with this practice. Nobody is forcing a person to walk into a bookstore and buy a military Bible are they? You buy it because you want it and that's the end of it. Like how all you guys want to think that military men and women are forced to go to chapel, pray in Jesus name etc. Freedom of Religion gives you the opportunity to do as you see fit in a spiritual way. All of you a way off the mark here.
You just don't get it. We're not claiming anyone is being forced to buy a Bible. We're saying the U.S. military cannot give the appearance they are endorsing any particular religion or stance on religion, whether it be Atheism, Islam or Christianity. This is treating everyone equally, right? RIGHT!!?
And by the way, the very few times non-Christians have tried to promote their religious beliefs in the military or government institutions, they get shot down (see story below)!! So no, sir, we're not going to just sit back and continue to allow you Christians to get special treatment. We will never back down from demanding equality!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
Your freedom of religion has not been taken away at all. Just like us, you're still free to practice your beliefs and sell your books. YOU are off the mark.
Joe Distefano I notice no uniform in your picture…Who the hell is this "we" you keep refering to. NO SERVE…NO VOICE in military matters.
Serving I spent many times wondering if I was the only one that was a Christian so I think sir that you are off the mark. In the military, or at least the units that I was in it was expected that you would attend parties where alcohol was served (Dining Ins and Dining Outs) and early it was standard practice to have only alcohol that was served in the "Grog Bowl". Is that being allowed to practice thier own religion? I was praised on the one hand for being a good moral person but got marked down on the other hand for wanting to attend church instead of the "Dining In" or other parties where alcohol was served. No Sir I am not off the mark I am right on the mark.
This is the military of the United States, headed by a civilian Commander In Chief. It's the military of the citizens of this country and damned right we have a say! You want a soveriegn military where the citizens have no say, go to dictatorship. Until then. all citizens have right to say what this military does or does not do. My father, a WWII vet, would have ripped you a new one for that bull.
Amen and Amen.
The bottom line and someday we will realize the truth, the government is either completely out of everything or the private sector should be able to use govenment insignia for printing purposes. Any document or other information service that uses DoD or govenment insignia's must also have also a disclaimer that shows the insignia does not in any way govermental endorsement of the item.
I was instructed the military endorsement agency was only there to ensure the disclaimer was used properly and that all companies or individual use of the insignis's had the discalimer. If not, then legal action could take place. Now the government is into copyright and trademark litigation. How far have be dropped of the cliff?
Joe Distefano 'We're saying the U.S. military cannot give the appearance they are endorsing any particular religion or stance on religion, whether it be Atheism, Islam or Christianity."
The Department of Defense and each individual branch of Service COMMISSIONS Chaplains. Your argument extends to the service's implicit approval of Soldiers' evangelical acts as well. It also says that I should not purchase a beer stein from the PX with the Army seal on it because we would not want the world to think the Army endorses Guinness or even alcoholism. For many soldiers, this one included, service to God and service to country go hand in hand. The moral and ethical responsibilities I bear for my uniform complement my religious moral and ethical responsibilities.
Freedom of religion will always a contentious issue and we are not going to settle anything in such a public forum because there are so many differing fundamental issues. It all comes down to belief and faith. What we believe to be true should not be so divisive but rather a unifying example of the promise of America. Freedom to express and freedom to live. The Army and the other services do not endorse religion but they happily support the soldiers who have the need for religion. This is a distinction that is often overlooked.
I look forward to educated and civil dialogue and not wreckless and unproductive banter..
Respectfully,
Jim, how the military unit handled things in the parties you mention is irrelevant to this case, and even if they did commit an infraction, that doesn’t make it right for the Marine Corps to commit another one.
You have not rebutted any of my actual arguments on THIS case. You’re still off the mark.
David Thompson, you need to do a lot better. You didn’t rebut my arguments. “We have a say” and “would have ripped you a new one” do not in any way explain the flaws in my arguments.
I agree you have a say. That does not mean whatever you say you want to do is right or constitutional.
Assuming you’re a Christian, just what the heck is your problem? Why do you think you have a right or need to have the U.S. government or military to put its stamp of approval on your religion or your religious text? This seems like something people who are insecure in their beliefs would do. You don’t see Atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc. doing this.
David Thompson, sorry about my last comment to you which I just deleted. I totally misunderstood you.
I did rebutted your arguments you just refuse to accept them. Ok yes some people have gotten upset over the "inequalities" of religious viewpoints. However if you look at some of the rallies that were held they were full of venom and hatred toward one group of people…. Christians. How about the shooting at Fort Hood, done by a Islamic terrorist however nobody including our President has said that in the mainstream media, What about the Atheists who at a base invited a rock group that showed a video of a burning Cross or Church (reported to us by the same author of this page about a year ago). So back to my point, if some group wants to promote the magazines of the humanist Dawkings and make a collection of his writings and put the Air Force seal on them go ahead and do it as long as it does not include hatred and instigate violence. I say the same for the Koran (although that might also upset the Islamic world much like the burning of Korans that happened in Afghanistan a couple of months ago.) I have no problem with that whatsoever, I will not buy them because that is a free market and that is my free will that I employ (did I mention that I did not have anyone of these Bibles in question? Yeah I think I did. But now if I see one I will definitely buy one because of this article. and the broohaha that this act of once again limiting our fighting men and womens rights to worship as they please and get inspiration for the way to live from a Book that is like no other.
Joe Distefano, Christians are not free to worship because we are constantly being told we can't talk about our Christian faith in public but try to shut down people using profanity. By the way, if you look, you will find nude magazines in the same store they sell these Bibles.
Good fact Stephen along with beer, and (since class six stores are now in shoppettes) all other manner of intoxicating spirits, chew, smokes the whole enchillada. Stephen hit the nail on the head.
Good fact Stephen along with beer, and (since class six stores are now in shoppettes) all other manner of intoxicating spirits, chew, smokes the whole enchillada. Stephen hit the nail on the head.
Amen! Get 'em @ Geofferey Cook! Obviously, Joe Distefano is just another "tolerant" liberal Obama supporter. You know them. They are "tolerant" of everyone who believes exactly like them. If you disagree on ANY issue, at any level, you are a #*@% sick @@##%^ who doesn't deserve to live. Like the liberal "bullying expert" a few weeks ago who cursed out all the Christians in the room. He certainly proved his credentials on bullying. At least he was tolerant of the two or three people who remained through his tirade.
Geofferey Cook, so only people in the military have justification for commenting on military matters even though ALL OF OUR TAX DOLLARS fund the military? Ha! You Christians sure do say some of the funniest things.
So you better call the Family Research Council to tell their members to shutup about the lesbian couple that got married on a military base, unless of course they've been in the military:
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/same-sex-ceremony-held-on-military-base.html
And I hope you told the millions of Americans to shut the hell up when all that debate about Don't Ask Don't Tell was going on.
Get a clue.
Jim Hadley, you rebutted my arguments? Really? Let’s see, I pointed out how in this case the U.S. military remaining neutral by not approving their emblems for any religious material is treating everyone (Atheists, Muslims, Christians) equally. You didn’t explain what is wrong with this approach to equality. I gave you actual EVIDENCE of how non-Christians are freakin’ shutdown when they try to promote their religion in government institutions, so we know it’s very unlikely non-Christians would be unable to get the Marine Corps to put their stamp on their non-Christian book. You didn’t refute this. Not to mention the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled in similar cases that it’s unconstitutional, that the government and military must be neutral, whether you agree or not!
We are sick of you Christians always getting preferential treatme…nt for your religion and breaking the case law established by the Supreme Court while the rest of us obey it. Sick of it, and we’re not going to just sit back and take it any more. We will fight for separation of Church and State because it treats EVERYONE equally and it’s the right thing to do.
What the heck does the shooting at Fort Hood and the Atheist rock group have to do with this case? You have not explained how those cases refute my arguments. The shooting at Fort Hood was a crime and the shooter should be prosecuted – that doesn’t mean we should start having military endorsement of a religion. The concert you speak of was in response to an evangelical Christian concert at Fort Bragg. The military itself is not endorsing or putting its stamp on these concerts, but just allowing them to happen.
Jim Hadley, and you know what I heard about that video of a burning cross and church? That Atheist band was showing the violence and destruction that religious followers cause (e.g. Muslims burning churches) as a way of denouncing religion for the violence it incites, the exact opposite of advocating violence. But this weasel Todd Starnes who wrote the article just wanted to mislead you, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.
Jim Hadley, then you just make the same unsubstantiated claim again that the rights of our fighting men and women to worship as they please are being limited, even after we’ve explained this is nonsense over and over to you.
How are their rights to worship being taken away? How? They’re free to go to church. Free to pray. Free to buy Bibles. Free to buy these exact same Bibles just without the U.S. military emblems on them!
Does your ability to worship god depend on having the U.S. military put their stamp on your “holy” book? Are you serious?
And I've already given you irrefutable evidence there are plenty of Christians (maybe not you) that would not tolerate the U.S. government or military putting their emblem on an Atheist, Pagan, Muslim or other type book, so trying to include every religion is NOT the answer. Neutrality is the only practical solution. Live with it.
Stephen Rayner, What in the world are you talking about? I hear Christians in public talking about their faith all the freakin’ time, and they’re free to do so. Give me a specific example of how your ability to worship your god was taken away.
And what do nude magazines have to do with this? Stop and think for a moment before you write so you actually make some sense. By the way, NO ONE is saying you can’t sell Bibles! It’s just that the U.S. military shouldn’t be approving their emblem for use on Bibles, or Korans, or The God Delusion, etc. There is a trademark license here and people can't put these U.S. military emblems on their products without the U.S. military approving them. That's the law.
Reginald Wayne McCray, please do show us where I said you or anyone here is a #*@% sick @@##%^ who doesn't deserve to live. Or if you're just complaining in general about how non-Christians speak to Christians, how about we look at the mountain of hate and threats Christians fired away at Jessica Ahlquist, as just one example?
Joe, you're sick of Christians getting preferential treatment? I'm waiting to see this preferential treatment. We treat every other religion with kid gloves. Don't offend Jews. Don't offend Muslims. Don't offend Buddhists. Don't offend Hindus. But Christians? Wipe the name "God" from everything. Patriotic songs that have been sung for over a hundred years are now considered taboo because it has the "g-word" in it. This war on Christianity has grown ridiculous. If you don't believe, fine. But don't expect the majority to hide their beliefs in the back of the closet out of fear of offending someone.
Poor persecuted Christians. Having to be treated equally to all other beliefs. Not getting preferential treatment. So persecuted, it must be so hard.
You do not get it joe! Who are you to say anything? Would you be able to if it was not for the military
Jeffrey Henry, what exactly don't I get, sir? Is this content-void response all you can muster when you can't actually rebut my arguments? Are you also going to ask the non-military Christians commenting here who are they to say anything?
I guess we shouldn't ever criticize Christians, because that means censorship, nor should we do things they don't like, because that's disrespectful of their beliefs. We should just all go around never speaking our minds when they speak, or doing things we like if they don't like them. You poor babies. Life is hard when you are 85% of the population and you aren't treated with the deference and respect you think you command.
Kristen, for cryin’ out loud, no one is telling you Christians to hide your beliefs. We only expect you to keep it out of government like the rest of us.
If you don’t see Christian privilege and the preferential treatment you get in this country, then you are totally blind, so please allow me to open your eyes with just a tiny fraction of examples:
1. “In God We Trust” added to money in the 1950’s due to a law passed by Congress, an EXPLICIT violation of the First Amendment that still hasn’t been corrected. Do we Atheists and Agnostics get to put our position on god on the money? No. Can you imagine the uproar across the country if we started printing “Good without god” (for example) on money that everyone, including Christians, must carry around in their wallets and purses? But we just have to suck it up, don’t we?
2. Public schools allow the bible to be handed for decades. As soon as a Muslim comes along and wants to hand out Korans, it sparks a vitriolic reaction from the community and the school changes their policy to disallow distribution of religious material:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
3. Another public school where no one has a problem with bibles being handed out to students. As soon as a Pagan asks to do the same thing with her Pagan spell books, guess what happens. DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
4. A public school distributing book covers with the Ten Commandments. Atheists submit their book covers and are DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Kristen Massey, for cryin’ out loud, no one is telling you Christians to hide your beliefs. We only expect you to keep it out of government like the rest of us.
If you don’t see Christian privilege and the preferential treatment you get in this country, then you are totally blind, so please allow me to open your eyes with just a tiny fraction of examples:
1. “In God We Trust” added to money in the 1950’s due to a law passed by Congress, an EXPLICIT violation of the First Amendment that still hasn’t been corrected. Do we Atheists and Agnostics get to put our position on god on the money? No. Can you imagine the uproar across the country if we started printing “Good without god” (for example) on money that everyone, including Christians, must carry around in their wallets and purses? But we just have to suck it up and take your motto, don’t we?
2. Public schools allow the bible to be handed for decades. As soon as a Muslim comes along and wants to hand out Korans, it sparks a vitriolic reaction from the community and the school changes their policy to disallow distribution of religious material:
http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/547350–gideon-bibles-rejected
3. Another public school where no one has a problem with bibles being handed out to students. As soon as a Pagan asks to do the same thing with her Pagan spell books, guess what happens. DENIED:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/18/pagan-mom-challenges-bibles-in-north-carolina-school/
4. A public school distributing book covers with the Ten Commandments. Atheists submit their book covers and are DENIED:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/watchalert/message/247
Kristen Massey, and on we go…
5. Crosses constantly being erected, not on private property or church property which is totally fine, but on city property such as water towers.
6. Crosses erected along the highways on state property.
7. Ten Commandments erected at courthouses.
Tell me, when do you see Atheists, Muslims, Pagans, or other non-Christians erecting their symbols on tax-payer funded property? That’s right. Practically never, if ever at all. See, we actually care about the public land and property we share with the rest of our pluralistic society to make people of all religions feel welcome, not use them as places to promote our religious beliefs. And on we go…
8. Christians getting majority, if not exclusive time for invocations at government sessions across the country. The rare time a non-Christian (in this case a Hindu) gives an invocation, he’s heckled by Christians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9To30Hz7A
9. This Christian pastor is given over 13 freakin’ minutes (18 if you count the 5 not recorded here) to spew his hateful, superstitious nonsense to the Oklahoma House of Representatives! Do you think they’d tolerate an Atheist or other non-Christian getting even a minute to speak?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PfG_3t7fP3k
Is that enough Christian privilege for you?
You are an idiot if you think military men and women are not coerced into religious service. My grandfather (USN WWII, Korean War & Vietnam) and my step-father (USAF WWII, Korean War) bitterly complained about numerous assignments where it was made very clear by superior officers that anyone hoping for any kind of promotion better not be absent from the christian services on base over their combined 51+ years of service. My father (USN, 4 years Vietnam) also reported this phenomena. He, however, didn't give a shit about promotion. He was in 4 years and out, but he acknowledged that the problem did exist when he got out of the service in 1965. And it's only gotten worse since then.
National Security is a bogus excuse. They just need to stop making excuses for why they want The Bible removed from wherever, and start telling the truth. I love reading the Bible. The Bible is The Bible. There is only one. I keep mine on my iPhone. Just like I keep the Constitution of the United States of America, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and others. I don't know the reason why there need to be military specific Bibles, but in my opinion, if they have been doing this for how long? This really does amount to "book burning", figuratively. But, it doesn't matter whether they do, or do not. The believers in the military will always have one in whatever form the individual chooses, and with the smart phones and tablets, well, they are available at all times. And, even when one does not have access to one wherever they are, the words are still in the mind, and that is something they cannot stop.
As a non-religious person who couldn't care less whether or not someone "endorses" a Bible for a group, has a cross or a Star of David or whatever floats their happy little boats: well said!
I think if you read the article you'll see that just about everything you said isn't true. No one wants to remove the bible at all, just the insignia of the military from the bible. This is just one set of bibles from one small far right religious group. The group that complained aren't atheists, and neither are the vast majority of their military clients. They are mostly Christians and Jews, with a representation of every other belief that understands that this was not right. You may keep copies of those papers around, but I doubt you read them because if you did you'd see that Christianity and the bible are never mentioned as an influence for our constitution, government, or America. Doing it for a length of time is no excuse, it doesn't make it right. I guess that made slavery ok in the 1860'd when it was abolished? Your last points are true, and if you really believe that, then you should have no problem with what happened, Religion is a private matter and does not need military or our government's reinforcement.
David, don't be naive. of course they want to remove the bible. They just can't do it all at once. Furthermore, our country certainly was founded on Christian principles. It's just silly to say it was not. Don't rewrite history
Jeremy Stewart, its actually silly to say this country was founded on Christian Principles. It was founded on freedom of religion. No proof whatsoever that the country's founding was religious in any way.
Believe this, if the founders wanted a religious country, they would have explicitly stated as such in the constitution. But they did not.
Jeremy, don't be paranoid. Tell you what, you find one instance of anyone going to court to get the bible removed completely from the military and banned. I am a member of the secular left, an unbeliever, and I know of no one and no group that even suggests this. They only want the government to stay out of religion, not private citizens. In the mean time I will provide plenty of instances where the far right has pushed Christian conformity and government endorsement of their beliefs in the military and abused others that refused to go along. Deal?
Nick, The majority of the founding Fathers here Christians, so to say that there was no religious influences on the Constitution is a major flaw on your part.
And it's apparent you haven't read any supplemental texts from the Founding Fathers on the creation of the Constitution, the writing of the Declaration or anything from the pre-Civil War period on abolitionism- something that started in Christian churches in the North and Midwest. Quite frankly, the temper tantrum thrown over selling the remaining military insignia Bibles on base-stores is ridiculous. The church in question obtained permission to use the various insignia- different from endorsement, legally speaking-, stopped printing when the standards changed, end of story. To require that no such remaining copy be found on a base store is indeed an attack. It begs the question as to when this group will require that NO religious text, branded or otherwise, be sold on a base or available to our soldiers, because it amounts to "endorsement." I would also like to point out that it infringes on the freedom of religion of potential buyers. What if they wanted a copy? Are they not allowed to choose because of their beliefs? If you truly believe in Freedom of Religion and honestly think that this wasn't an attack on religion, why not allow the Bibles be sold until they run out? The members of the MRFF are free NOT to purchase a copy if they so choose- but I'm starting to see that when people say "freedom of religion", they mean "freedom for my beliefs, and no one else."
still think this country was founded as a christian nation??
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson (13 April 1743 – 4 July 1826) was author of the Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777), founder of the University of Virginia (1819), the third president of the United States (1801–1809), a political philosopher, editor of Jefferson's Bible (1819), and one of the most influential founders of the United States.
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779)[1] by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph.[2] It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 (NOT when the US was founded) as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782. In God we trust has appeared sporadically on U.S. coins since 1864[3] and on paper currency since 1957.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779) by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph. It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
this country was NOT founded on christian principles. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists
still think this country was founded as a christian nation??
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson (13 April 1743 – 4 July 1826) was author of the Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777), founder of the University of Virginia (1819), the third president of the United States (1801–1809), a political philosopher, editor of Jefferson's Bible (1819), and one of the most influential founders of the United States.
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779)[1] by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph.[2] It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 (NOT when the US was founded) as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782. In God we trust has appeared sporadically on U.S. coins since 1864[3] and on paper currency since 1957.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779) by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph. It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
this country was NOT founded on christian principles. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists
In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Jefferson was a skeptic personally about Christianity; he doubted some key Christian doctrines like the resurrection and the divinity of Christ, but he was the champion of religious liberty. Jefferson wrote in a letter the phrase "the wall of separation between church and state,"
Jefferson was a skeptic personally about Christianity; he doubted some key Christian doctrines like the resurrection and the divinity of Christ, but he was the champion of religious liberty. Jefferson wrote in a letter the phrase "the wall of separation between church and state,"
Jefferson is an excellent example for more skeptical or secular folks in America today. He had doubts about faith, but he didn't need to impose those on people of faith. Conservative believers could also learn from some of the evangelical Baptists at the time of the founding, who were more than willing to support politically someone like Jefferson, even though they didn't share his own beliefs.
David Thompson you are such a fool, let me clear this us. Are you or have you ever been in the Marine Corps? Do you beleive in God? If no, then this has nothing to do with you. I have owned this bible since boot camp at Paris Island and it has taken me through some pretty rough times. Now that I am out of the Marine Corps I can not think of a time without it and yes the my Eagle Globe and Anchor meant alot to me and gave me comfort being on the front of my bible. It is freedom, your freedom to be far left yet you try to limit mine.
The idea that this country was not founded on belief in God (Christianity not withstanding), is absolute. In both the Constitution of the United States of America, and the Declaration of Independence. (respectively) this is a fact. The very FIRST part of the First Amendment establishes the fact that religion is acknowledged, and since they had been forced to worship against their will they way they wished, this is why this is our first law. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Put simply, there cannot be a government religion like there was in England which was Catholicism in their day. Many did not believe in this way of worship, and wished to do so as Protestants with different doctrines. Regardless, a person who works in a government office who believes in God, or does not believe in God, CANNOT BE PREVENTED from exercising their belief – even in the building where they work. IF the majority of the people believe in God, Christ, whatever, then the majority rules in America. Therefore, if they so wish to put a nativity out for Christmas, or celebrate Christmas, or wish to celebrate Chanuka, or any other form of religion, they may do so as well as long as the majority does not object. Those who are in the minority must bow to the majority. Most people have no problem with any religion, or lack thereof, to be practices in government. This, is only a minority. It makes no difference whether one does, or does not, believe in God. This is fact.
Next, we have the Declaration which specifically acknowledges a "creator". It makes no difference what his name may be called. It is a fact, and it is in this document. So, the argument that this country was not found on The Bible is false. Even our very judicial system is based on the laws of The Bible.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." When those words were written, the word "creator" was used. This, alone, shows that they did believe in God, and he was recognized as such.
We all know how Christianity, and even the Jews, are being targeted at this point. It's easy to see, and quite frankly, there are many in our government who are trying their best to rid this country of The Bible, God, Jesus, and anything to do with this. When a tradition has been upheld forever, and is suddenly stopped, then the desire to stop that tradition is greater when it has something to do with God. Those who want this stopped have been trying for 2000 years to get rid of Jesus, not to mention much further back than that with God. Well, it hasn't happened yet. You'd think that they would figure this out. You can take away The Bible, eliminate anything to do with Christ and God in government, but you still will NOT eliminate believers. THIS is what the First Amendment was designed to prevent. If government steps in to eliminate religion in any form, such as the birth control issue in the Catholic faith, then they are violating the First Amendment. Get over it. Don't like this? Then leave. The borders are open both ways, you know.
David, Nick, Renee, et al – you might want to read the Mayflower Compact – which is fairly explicit in terms of the intentions and should be easily understood to be a document that clearly represents an influence on the founding of our great nation. As a Christian – I would concur with you on the point that we are not a "Christian nation" (albeit for different reasons I would guess) – however – your implications that Christianity and / or the Bible were not an "influence" on the foundations of this country is either naive, willfully negligent…or at its worst…a sinister attempt to justify removing God from any public discourse…
The Mayflower compact was written on board the ship by two opposing groups of theocrats whose government dissolved even before the first state constitutions were written. I know this must be inconvenient to you, but if we stuck with the Mayflower Compact as a continuing valid basis of law in this country, we would be a theocracy because that's what the pilgrims wanted. State constitutions, the First Continental Congress, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution all supercede the Mayflower Compact. It has no more to do with our laws than the agreements struck up by French, Dutch, and Spanish Colonists in other parts of the country.
Well David – thank you for ruling out you being naive…at this point I guess your refusal to even acknowledge the "influence" (your original words and argument) of Christianity and the Bible on the foundation of this country leaves us with the other two choices…willfully negligent or sinister…or perhaps there still is a third…fear. But let's try a different approach…please educate us on what did influence the foundation of our great nation?
So beyond a cultural influence, which I acknowledge, what influence did Christianity and the bible have on our country? Certainly it had an influence on some of the founders, but not on our government. The result is that I and anyone else are free to ignore it. You don't like it, well, that sucks being you, then. You desperately want the authority of government to make people respect your religion. That isn't going to happen, buddy.
Read the bible if you wish. But keep it out of government. The founding fathers did not want and abhorred Theocracy. Want theocracy ?go live in Israel or elsewhere in the mid east. America love it or leave it. How's that for Irony?
Read the bible if you wish. But keep it out of government. The founding fathers did not want and abhorred Theocracy. Want theocracy ?go live in Israel or elsewhere in the mid east. America love it or leave it. How's that for Irony?
BTW I do not own an Airmans Bible so before any accuse and to prove that it is not a mandatory thing.
Marines "terrified" to go up the change of command? The idea they call themselves Marines is as pathetic as it is disturbing. Do these sissies also hold hands when they go on patrol so they won't be afraid?
haha. How much time have you served? I bet the house the weakest Marine I've ever served with will mop the floor with your candy ass.
Leon Guthrie The Marines I knew had the balls to stand up for themselves and to speak their minds; they did not need to go whining to a bunch of civilians for perceived slights. But, as the saying goes, that was then and this is now, and goodbye to all that. As the USA transforms itself into yet another repressive banana republic or a corrupt euro-socialist dystopia, the American military will either have to follow along, or live up to their oath. I really don't hold out much hope on that.
As to my own military service, 1974-1980, but standards were quite a bit higher then, and we were expected morals, honor and courage. Nowadays, not so much, as a group.
Ralph, thanks for your service. I disagree strongly with your honor and courage remark. Our military has been fighting for last 10 years and there has been tremendous honor and courage displayed. A lot brothers are maimed displaying this attributes daily.
YOUR standards were quite a bit higher? Mr. Vaughan, don't you dare go after today's troopers "as a group." Let's review US military history from 1974-1980 shall we? Hmm..too late for combat service in Vietnam and you got out before Grenada and Panama…how about you sit quietly and think about modern American troops with multiple combat tours would compare their service to yours.
So much for "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". What's next change the country's name to Ameristan.
Liberals are always for freedom and liberty…unless they disagree.
My feelings perfectly stated! As for these folks who never served…who is this "we" they are so eager to push at me?
What a load of crap. If they don't want it then do not buy it. So simple.
What a load of crap. If they don't want it then do not buy it. So simple.
It affiliates a federal agency to a specific religion. It's the same thing as attending a political rally in uniform. They were right to stop it, they just had the wrong motivations…
Andrew Hazen…as someone else stated, if there are Military insignia's on Beer Steins, that a company produces and sells…does that say the Government run Military supports and endorses Beer drinking a certain brand of Beer against someone's religious belief to not partake of alcohol…?? This is like John said, just don't but it…a private Bible publisher produced these Bibles for the Military Troops to purchase if they choose to. So easy a CaveMan can do it…just don't Buy it!!
Using the EGA on a bible does not make it the Marine Corps bible…..as it states it is The Marines bible….specifically tailored towards the Marine who buys it. The Marine Corps said it was fine to use the EGA but didnt state that the bible was owned by the Marine Corps. Its owned by the person who buys it.
We are at war, for the soul's of million's of people, it is not againts blood, but a spiritual war, the seal of the U.S. MARINE'S is proper, and giving it to our son's, and daugther's in the military is a way to still the way and the truth of the evangelism of our LORD and SAVIOR, JESUSCHRIST.
Fight your own religious war in your head, not with the blood of our citizens. You have no right to use OUR military for your sick delusional evangelism and no right to government endorsement of it. People like you should be told that they are unamerican and unpatriotic, and this country is not a Christian nation.
Not a Christian Nation? Then why do we use the Bible when a President takes office, our when a person is sworn in as a witness in court?
Using the bible is a personal decision, as it should be. Some presidents do and some presidents don't. It's not required by any law or our constitution. The words to the Oath of Office are: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. No mention of god. That oath is administered by the Chief Justice, not a Priest of Minister. So the answer is personal preference, and that has nothing to do in making this a Christian nation.
Using the bible is a personal decision, as it should be. Some presidents do and some presidents don't. It's not required by any law or our constitution. The words to the Oath of Office are: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. No mention of god. That oath is administered by the Chief Justice, not a Priest of Minister. So the answer is personal preference, and that has nothing to do in making this a Christian nation.
David,since you seem to want a godless,unchristian nation how about relocating to Yemen?I will personally pay for your plane ticket and give you a job refernce?
No thanks. I'd rather stay here, in OUR country, and fight the dumbfucks like you. Sorry, but you are just going to have to deal with people telling you to shove your religious fascism.
No thanks. I'd rather stay here, in OUR country, and fight the dumbfucks like you. Sorry, but you are just going to have to deal with people telling you to shove your religious fascism.
Wouldn't work John, Yemen is a Muslim country living according to the tenets of Islamic law. ;1) Britain might be a better choice.
Mr. Buchanan, I served in the military for 20 years so that you have the right to think what you want. But I also served so that everyone has the freedom to believe what they want, how they want, whether that be in god, buddha, or nothing. Feel free to relocate to the middle east where you too can participate in sharia law-but not of the christian type.
John Buchanan, why does this have to be a "christian nation"? Are your so unsure of your beliefs that you need the government to validate them for you? Honestly, its quite ridiculous some of you whining about a christian nation, why not just worry about yourself and be happy that you have the freedom to practice your religion.
I think David is advocating for a secular nation, not a godless nation. There is a difference. A "christian nation", would violate the religious freedom of all non-christians. Its freedom of religion for everyone, not just your beliefs.
John Buchanan, why does this have to be a "christian nation"? Are your so unsure of your beliefs that you need the government to validate them for you? Honestly, its quite ridiculous some of you whining about a christian nation, why not just worry about yourself and be happy that you have the freedom to practice your religion.
I think David is advocating for a secular nation, not a godless nation. There is a difference. A "christian nation", would violate the religious freedom of all non-christians. Its freedom of religion for everyone, not just your beliefs.
I am a retired veteran of the US Army (27 years), and personally do not see the military emblem on The Bible as an endorsement of any kind, though I understand that others may interpret it that way. I see it as a way for the servicemember to be proud of his service in both the military branch he/she has chosen and in his religion. He/she can carryThe Bible to church and display the emblem of his branch mush in the same way I display the US Army emblem on my vehicles and my leather riding jacket. It is meant as a symbol of pride not an afront to other religions.
You see, this issue is open to interpretation, just as the Constitution is, and the literal interpretations that have been used in the last 30 years are killing this country. Yes, the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but the country was founded on Christian values by Christians. Had they interpreted the Consitution as literally when they wrote it, we would not have any religious symbols in our society.
What bothers me is that the Athiests want to ferret out all signs of religion, which this great country was founded on. If they don't want to worship my God, fine, but leave me alone about it. I have beeter things to do than look for their symbols to erradicate.
Please provide us with a list of the Christian values this country was founded on, and why that means our military should endorse Christianity.
The founders' own words: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".
Want to try again?
I think you need to read the letters of Thomas Jefferson. Both as a Govenor and State Senator and, Yes, as the President. You will find that he was very familiar with the religious ideas of the founding members and how important religious liberty and the free expression and govermental value placed upon the Christian religions of his time.
One important letter and background would be his letter to the Baptist Association that requested his help in keeping their religious abilities within their state of Connetticut. You may find some interesting material regarding our Christian heritage.
It is also interesting to note that many Aethist's like to invoke Jefferson without understanding his deep Christian religious views. He also attended Christian services held within the House of Representatives chambers every Sunday.
I hope this helps.
Please post from what document you found this.
It sounds like a reference to President Adams response to the Muslim nations regarding a treaty we signed to stave off pirates in the 1800's.
Nick Wright While quoting George Washington, you missed a few:
“It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible.”
"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor– and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness. "
Charlie Bell, Treaty of Tripoli 1799. Its funny that you can find actual quotes that say 'this government was in no way founded on christianity', but you can't find any that say 'this government was founded on christianity' anywhere in our official documents. Saying the Jefferson or Washington were religious men doesn't mean they felt the government wasn't meant to be secular. Face it, we are a melting pot of cultures and beliefs. Secular Government is the only way for a prosperous nation that works for everyone.
Clarence Conner So because Washington believed in a god that means we were founded on christianity? Nope, you are quoting his personal beliefs. Irrelevant in 2012.
David Thompson
Principlel 1: The Dignity of Human Life (Exodus 20:13; Matt 22:39)
Principle 2: The Traditional Monogamous Family (Gen 2:23,24)
Principle 3: A National Work Ethic (2 Thess 3:10)
Principle 4: The Right to a God-Centered Education (Eph 6:4)
Principle 5: The Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:7)
Principle 6: Common Decency (Matt 22:39)
Principle 7: Our Accountability to God (Heb 9:27)
The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the appended Bill of Rights, and other primary documents lean upon a common understanding of law, government, social order and morality. That understanding derives from a common acceptance of the Judeo-Christian Ethic, which originates in the Old and New Testaments. Whether or not the Founding Fathers were Christians (not all were, but that is unimportant), their writings, statements and actions evidence the fact that they embraced these principles as the basis for a civilized and free nation.
Someone should have told you, as I always told my children and students, "Look it up," but with them we at least had the hope that there was, just beneath their veneer of laziness and apathy, an underlying desire for knowledge, for advancement, for the ability to rise above the comforting embrace of ignorance…with you, we had no realistic expectation of hope.
Of course, now possessing a fragment of knowledge (which, naturally, does not jibe with your prejudices and hatreds), what you do with it is up to you. It might just be easier for you to go back to sleep, as there might be scary things ahead. Night-night.
Nick Wright — According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 (Treaty of Tripoli) were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers." In other words, That's 'Your" interpretation as it is with some others who want to cite this as historical fact. Want to try again…
Why don't you try reading the Declaration of Independence?As someone who both served this country and defended your rights,and as a native Washingtonian who can personally take you on a guided tour of buildings and monuments engraved with scripture,that demonstrate of Americas forefathers,many of whom were pastors and Bible scholars,in fact several had graduated from seminary.-All men are created equal,given certain unalienable rights endowed by their Creator.Your lack of understanding Americas rich spiritual heritage is in now way admirable,in fact it's unpatriotic.
Nick Wright If you knew the circumstances of the quote, you wouldn't bandy it about as if it means what you want it to mean. However, whether or not America was founded on the Christian religion is immaterial, as it was founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic, which the Founding Fathers embraced, whether they were Christians or not, as fundamental to the founding of a free and civilized republic separate from the corrupt politico-religious basis of Europe or the uncivilized Mohammedan nations.
Nick Wright
You are right in the premise that the "founding fathers" can not be found writing this specifically, we need to look at the whole picture of the comment made. President Adams wrote those words attempting to release Americans from the hands of Muslim Pirates. He was attempting to persuade people we could not fight against since our navy was in one of the worst states of affairs. When you read the other documents and historians comments regarding the events, another picture emerges.
Adams believed very strongly in Governemt endorsement and involvement in relion as did George Washington. They both declared several days of Fasting and Prayer for the nation and nothing like the "day of prayer" proclumation we argue over today. Religion was very interwined in goverment at all levels. That is the main reason the Adams vs jefferson election became so bitter. Many think of the adulterous affairs, but it went even deeper and continued after the election. This is why the Conetticut letter to the Baptist is so important to study at both a secular and religious viewpoint.
You bring fine points for discussion.
I'd say you have been reading too much David Barton if you think Jefferson is one of your own and endorsed the mixing of religion and government. He defended personal religious expression, not government endorsement. Jefferson was a Unitarian, and did not believe in the divinity of Christ or the miracles in the bible. Jefferson also resisted any endorsement of religion or religious proclamations. He may have been a religious man in his own right, but he suppoted an absolute separation of church and state. SOmething youn obviously refuse to understand.
Clarence Conner Washington's personal beliefs never were extrapolated to government endorsement of religion. He was also a Christian by habit, not necessarily belief. All accounts by Washington's friends and colleagues bare that out. His own minister said he never took communion and usually lefy before the end of the service. Nice try.
Nick Wright –According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 (Treaty of Tripoli) were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers."
So, in other words–you trying to use it for your argument is just as others who try to use the qoute you cited as historical fact. It's one persons opinion. That's all. Want to try again…
David Thompson We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.
There is no scientific, secular or for that matter earthly standard that supports such a claim.
We as a nation declare and defend a Christian principle in spite of every earthly measure.
The idea of individual liberty even unto the care of one's Soul, enshrined in a government document is unique to this nation and exist no where else simply because this nation was made by faithful Christians for a faithful Christian people and it will not work for the faithless.
David Thompson
In 1892, Justice Josiah David Brewer writing in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S., the
unanimous supreme Court decision which has never been overturned, held as a matter of law, fact, and history that “…this is a Christian nation,” because our laws and public institutions are founded on Biblical principles from the Old and New Testaments. Brewer continues, “this is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation…we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth…this is a Christian nation.”
There is an official foundation of American law and civil government; a Canon if you will which must include consideration of at least four separate decisions of the U.S. supreme Court which assert that the United States is in law, fact and history and should thus properly be termed officially a “Christian Nation” because of the foundation of our laws upon principles of the Ten Commandments and the Old and New Testaments. Those Court decisions include Vidal v. Girard’s Executors, 2 How. 127, 197-199 (1844) [cited in Marsh v. Chambers and Abinton v. Schempp]; Mormon Church v. United States, 136 U.S. 1 (1889), [also cited in Abington v. Schempp]; Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892); and U.S. v. MacIntosh 283 U.S. 605 (1931).
Do you need more?
David Thompson
In 1892, Justice Josiah David Brewer writing in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S., the
unanimous supreme Court decision which has never been overturned, held as a matter of law, fact, and history that “…this is a Christian nation,” because our laws and public institutions are founded on Biblical principles from the Old and New Testaments. Brewer continues, “this is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation…we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth…this is a Christian nation.”
There is an official foundation of American law and civil government; a Canon if you will which must include consideration of at least four separate decisions of the U.S. supreme Court which assert that the United States is in law, fact and history and should thus properly be termed officially a “Christian Nation” because of the foundation of our laws upon principles of the Ten Commandments and the Old and New Testaments. Those Court decisions include Vidal v. Girard’s Executors, 2 How. 127, 197-199 (1844) [cited in Marsh v. Chambers and Abinton v. Schempp]; Mormon Church v. United States, 136 U.S. 1 (1889), [also cited in Abington v. Schempp]; Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892); and U.S. v. MacIntosh 283 U.S. 605 (1931).
Do you need more?
David Thompson
1844, Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 43 U.S. 126,132.
The United States Supreme Court held in a unanimous opinion read by Justice Joseph Story
ruled as follows:
Christianity…is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the
annoyance of believers or the injury of the public…It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of…Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country…Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics…
And we cannot overlook the blessings, which such [lay] men by their conduct, as well as their instructions, may, nay must, impart to their youthful pupils. Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine
revelation in the [school] — its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained and its
glorious principles of morality inculcated?…
Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?
It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of
Pennsylvania…
Need more?
David Thompson
1844, Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 43 U.S. 126,132.
The United States Supreme Court held in a unanimous opinion read by Justice Joseph Story
ruled as follows:
Christianity…is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the
annoyance of believers or the injury of the public…It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of…Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country…Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics…
And we cannot overlook the blessings, which such [lay] men by their conduct, as well as their instructions, may, nay must, impart to their youthful pupils. Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine
revelation in the [school] — its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained and its
glorious principles of morality inculcated?…
Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?
It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of
Pennsylvania…
Need more?
Nick Wright "…are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights…" try to keep in mind the time period you are talking about. It isn't ours. In the Colonial world of the 18th century, most people believed in God. Perhaps you should examine who you are quoting? The only documents the "founders" published in one voice were the Artilces of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Nick Wright "…are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights…" try to keep in mind the time period you are talking about. It isn't ours. In the Colonial world of the 18th century, most people believed in God. Perhaps you should examine who you are quoting? The only documents the "founders" published in one voice were the Artilces of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
David Thompson
1892, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States 143 U.S. 457 (1892)
This powerful ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court chronicles Christianity's central role in shaping America's political institutions and traditions:
Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian.
No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national,
because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation.
The commission to Christopher Columbus…[recited] that 'it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered…'
The first colonial grant made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584…and the grant authorizing him to
enact statutes for the government of the proposed colony provided that they 'be not against the true Christian faith…'
The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606…commenced the grant in these words: '…in propagating of Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness…'
Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony…in 1609 and 1611; and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the Pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: 'Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith…a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia…'
The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-1639, commence with this declaration: 'And well knowing where a people are gathered together, the Word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union…there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God…to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess…of the said Gospel [which] is now practiced amongst us.'
In the Charter of Privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: '…No people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of civil liberties, if abridged of…their religious profession and worship…
Coming nearer to the present time, the Declaration of Independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words:
'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights…appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions…And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.' We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth…because of a general recognition of this truth [that we are a Christian nation], the question has seldom been presented to the courts…
There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. the Commonwealth, it was decided that, Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law…not Christianity with an established church…but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men. And in The People v. Ruggles, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said: 'The people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice…We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors [other
religions].' And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, this court observed: 'It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law…' If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among
other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an
appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most
conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all will, 'In the name of God, amen', the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation…we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. The happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially
depend upon piety, religion and morality. Religion, morality, and knowledge [are] necessary to good government, the preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind.
How about more?
Nick Wright
Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "…the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.
Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "…God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"
John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were … the general principles of Christianity … I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "…Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.
The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.
Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.
John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.
This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:
"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people…This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".
In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity…That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'
It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.
It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.
When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.
In 1892, Justice Josiah David Brewer writing in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S., the
unanimous supreme Court decision which has never been overturned, held as a matter of law, fact, and history that“…this is a Christian nation,” because our laws and public institutions are founded on Biblical principles from the Old and New Testaments. Brewer continues, “this is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation…we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth…this is a Christian nation.”
Clarence, the first quote was never said or written by Washington. You lose again. Quit herpderping and regurgitating the chain emails you receive.
still think this country was founded as a christian nation??
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson (13 April 1743 – 4 July 1826) was author of the Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777), founder of the University of Virginia (1819), the third president of the United States (1801–1809), a political philosopher, editor of Jefferson's Bible (1819), and one of the most influential founders of the United States.
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779)[1] by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph.[2] It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 (NOT when the US was founded) as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782. In God we trust has appeared sporadically on U.S. coins since 1864[3] and on paper currency since 1957.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779) by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph. It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
this country was NOT founded on christian principles. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.
In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Jefferson was a skeptic personally about Christianity; he doubted some key Christian doctrines like the resurrection and the divinity of Christ, but he was the champion of religious liberty. Jefferson wrote in a letter the phrase "the wall of separation between church and state,"
Jefferson is an excellent example for more skeptical or secular folks in America today. He had doubts about faith, but he didn't need to impose those on people of faith. Conservative believers could also learn from some of the evangelical Baptists at the time of the founding, who were more than willing to support politically someone like Jefferson, even though they didn't share his own beliefs.
David Thompson this country was NOT founded on christian principles. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
Thomas Jefferson (13 April 1743 – 4 July 1826) was author of the Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (1777), founder of the University of Virginia (1819), the third president of the United States (1801–1809), a political philosopher, editor of Jefferson's Bible (1819), and one of the most influential founders of the United States.
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779)[1] by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph.[2] It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 (NOT when the US was founded) as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782. In God we trust has appeared sporadically on U.S. coins since 1864[3] and on paper currency since 1957.
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was drafted in 1777 (though it was not first introduced into the Virginia General Assembly until 1779) by Thomas Jefferson in the city of Fredericksburg, Virginia. In 1786, the Assembly enacted the statute into the state's law. The Statute for Religious Freedom is one of only three accomplishments Jefferson instructed be put in his epitaph. It supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin. A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.
In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Are any unique to Christianity? No. Are any of these actually given credit as the reason for our government? No. Are they all cherry picked after the fact by theocrats like yourself? Yes. Please correct me if you can by finding where I'm wrong here, in the founders own words. You might want to read the Federalist Papers, written by the Founders responsible for designing our government. It explains the thinking, influence, and credit for the foundation of our country. Not once is the bible, god, or Christianity ever mentioned. Why is that?
Looks like someone has been reading too much David Barton. Not even going to bother with idiots like you.
Jefferson was NOT a Christian. He Did NOT believe in the resurrection of Jesus.He believed in the philosophy of Jesus the MAN. He went as far to write a new bible reflecting that idea. Therefore he is NOT a Christian. If you are a Christian then you should know that.
to answer your question, look at the USA currency for one thing
"Nearly 2000 servicemembers…" That is less than 0.1% of the DOD. Mikey Weinstein and the MRFF need to go remove themselves from the gene pool.
"Now, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation is demanding that all remaining versions of the Bibles be removed from base exchanges — calling them a “threat to national security.”.
Maybe someone could explain how this is a threat to national security to me, because I'm obviously not getting it. What is wrong with a Bible having special prayers for soldiers or marines or sailors? Would it be ok if the PX also carried themed Torahs, Korans, etc? Just because a branch's seal is on a book doesn't mean that they are endorsing that particular religion.
Let's call a spade a spade. A small group of non-believers are forcing Americans to hide their religion, especially Christianity, as if it's something to be ashamed of. The word "God" can't be uttered aloud without someone screaming that it's offensive.
Political correctness is going to be the death of this country. Soon, we'll be no better than countries who ban any practice of religion. Land of the free? Hardly. Freedom of religion? No chance.
Give me a break This country was founded on Christian beliefs & foundations – what are we doing to our country????
Sarah, wrong. Read the Constitution which our country is founded on. Tell me what Christian principles are in there, and if you do happen to find a few, I'm sure I can point to other religious traditions that shared those principles.
Just because a lot of our founders were Christian does not mean they founded a Christian nation. If they had it would be spelled out in our Constitution. What they wanted was a secular nation where people of ALL faiths (and non-faiths) are free and their government does not show any preference for any faith(s). Equality!
What Christian beliefs were they founded on, and what made those beliefs the property of Christianity? For almost 1700 years nations were actually founded on Christianity, and they were oppressive monarchies. It took progressive humanists to change that, and they didn't use the bible to do it. Not once is the bible ever mentioned by the founders who wrote the constitution as the basis for our government. Not once.
I think the answer to your question is found in another question. What influenced the world-view of men like Jefferson and Madison that they believed so firmly that man was endowed with certain rights? Rights that are not espoused in any other religion and must have a universal foundation in order for them to be "rights." One of the primary events, that is most often overlooked, that fueled the desire for self-governance and freedom is the First Great Awakening.
Your are correct in that the Constitution does not specifically mention God, but the Constitution cannot be understood apart from its historical context as if it appeared in a vacuum. Madison's great concern was not that religion would influence government, but that government would taint religion.
I think the answer to your question is found in another question. What influenced the world-view of men like Jefferson and Madison that they believed so firmly that man was endowed with certain rights? Rights that are not espoused in any other religion and must have a universal foundation in order for them to be "rights." One of the primary events, that is most often overlooked, that fueled the desire for self-governance and freedom is the First Great Awakening.
Your are correct in that the Constitution does not specifically mention God, but the Constitution cannot be understood apart from its historical context as if it appeared in a vacuum. Madison's great concern was not that religion would influence government, but that government would taint religion.
some things that have to be understood here, is that, the MRFF represents MOSTLY christians serving in the military-christians with varying beliefs and levels of practice and observance. 96% of MRFF's clients area christians serving in the military. https://www.box.com/s/427ef160a708b3a3326e In addition, the MRFF also serves nonchristians. The military is a sector of government, and gov't will not endorse any particular religion. Period. In addition, Fox news notoriously misrepresents information. Don't be so quick to judge based on what you see in a Fox news article. research and get the facts.
FYI-the MRFF is NOT an atheist group either; Mikey Weinstein is of the Jewish faith and many people who work with him are Christians.
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my original question. How is this situation a threat to national security. People have debated the ins and outs of whether or not the US was founded based on Christian ideals and, in my opinion, both sides have very reasonable arguments, so I won't get into that. Lord knows (pun intended) there's been enough of that in this forum.
I hold to my original statement, however, that Christians in America are being singled out and forced to hide their beliefs in the name of political correctness".
Kristen-those are the Fox writer's words intended to misrepresent the matter. NOT the words of the MRFF. that's why I've stated that people need to research things, especially since Fox news is notorious for misrepresenting information. You can see the actual claim by the MRFF here, which is focused on constitutionality, not national security: http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/06/061112-mrff-pressure-halts-military-bible-authorization-by-all-four-military-branches/
Why is it a threat to national security?? Well when you have a long history of such things as the Crusades, the Inquisition, rabid and rampant proselytizing by groups who go into nations under the guise of humanitarian aid projects but really just want to convert the masses to Christianity, and now major wars against people who hold as strong a belief in their religion being The right one and their truth The REAL Truth coming up against another that thinks it is The Way, The Truth, etc. then you have issues of national and global security staring at you. If America as a concept or a military power is allowed to be co-opted by people who declare us to be A Christian Nation and Christians naturally want to convert everyone, incl. Muslims, and Christians also want to defend Israel at all costs (setting aside the fact that the historical Jesus was Jewish and a practicing one at that -so I've never quite figured out . . . . ?) then the US will be seen as partisan in these religious affairs by people who are ignorant, fundamentalist in their own right, and feel threatened not only physically but spiritually, much less people with sharp analytical skills and fine logic. We are a melting pot of peoples and that includes religion, but until recently anyone not in with the majority was considered a "heretic" and fodder for the tract pushers. I just learned today that some states have never stricken down laws that state that atheists, and presumably agnostics too cannot hold public office!! Respecting each other's beliefs or non-beliefs in any higher power starts at home and expands to include policy on the national level as well. The Golden Rule is a common theme in the world's religions and humanism as well, and no one holds a patent on it.
Why is it a threat to national security?? Well when you have a long history of such things as the Crusades, the Inquisition, rabid and rampant proselytizing by groups who go into nations under the guise of humanitarian aid projects but really just want to convert the masses to Christianity, and now major wars against people who hold as strong a belief in their religion being The right one and their truth The REAL Truth coming up against another that thinks it is The Way, The Truth, etc. then you have issues of national and global security staring at you. If America as a concept or a military power is allowed to be co-opted by people who declare us to be A Christian Nation and Christians naturally want to convert everyone, incl. Muslims, and Christians also want to defend Israel at all costs (setting aside the fact that the historical Jesus was Jewish and a practicing one at that -so I've never quite figured out . . . . ?) then the US will be seen as partisan in these religious affairs by people who are ignorant, fundamentalist in their own right, and feel threatened not only physically but spiritually, much less people with sharp analytical skills and fine logic. We are a melting pot of peoples and that includes religion, but until recently anyone not in with the majority was considered a "heretic" and fodder for the tract pushers. I just learned today that some states have never stricken down laws that state that atheists, and presumably agnostics too cannot hold public office!! Respecting each other's beliefs or non-beliefs in any higher power starts at home and expands to include policy on the national level as well. The Golden Rule is a common theme in the world's religions and humanism as well, and no one holds a patent on it.
Why is it a threat to national security?? Well when you have a long history of such things as the Crusades, the Inquisition, rabid and rampant proselytizing by groups who go into nations under the guise of humanitarian aid projects but really just want to convert the masses to Christianity, and now major wars against people who hold as strong a belief in their religion being The right one and their truth The REAL Truth coming up against another that thinks it is The Way, The Truth, etc. then you have issues of national and global security staring at you. If America as a concept or a military power is allowed to be co-opted by people who declare us to be A Christian Nation and Christians naturally want to convert everyone, incl. Muslims, and Christians also want to defend Israel at all costs (setting aside the fact that the historical Jesus was Jewish and a practicing one at that -so I've never quite figured out . . . . ?) then the US will be seen as partisan in these religious affairs by people who are ignorant, fundamentalist in their own right, and feel threatened not only physically but spiritually, much less people with sharp analytical skills and fine logic. We are a melting pot of peoples and that includes religion, but until recently anyone not in with the majority was considered a "heretic" and fodder for the tract pushers. I just learned today that some states have never stricken down laws that state that atheists, and presumably agnostics too cannot hold public office!! Respecting each other's beliefs or non-beliefs in any higher power starts at home and expands to include policy on the national level as well. The Golden Rule is a common theme in the world's religions and humanism as well, and no one holds a patent on it.
ROTFLOL…Michal Mudd…What's so ludicrous about your last statement about The Golden Rule being a common theme in the world's religions, is that islame is the only religion murdering, in the name of their false god. Jesus wasn't a typical orthodox Jew, like the Pharisee's and Saducee's…He lived a life free from, and against the legalism of that type of Jew…ie., performing miracles on the Sabbath day, which they pointed a finger at Him and condemn Him publicly for doing.
Answer me this: If we're not a christian based country, then why is there a official congressional Chaplin, are are there chaplains in the military, police and veteran organizations? Why does our dollar bills say "in God we trust" on the back side? Why did most court houses (until recently when retarded atheist groups sued) have the 10 commandments on display? Why is the oath of office sworn on a bible? Whether you like it or not, The Constitution was written by some old white guys that went to Sunday sermons and had Christian ideals and beliefs ingrained into them from the time they were born. Get over it.
They are not demanding and end to Bibles and they are most Christians themselves, 96% of the members are. So why are you giving false witness?
I want to know how to get a complete set. I like the cover artwork.
Did you notice where there from , Madison Wi yea that same place that had 119% of the citizen vote. Go figure. I bet 90% of these fools never served, and were raised with a golden spoon. They disgust me and I'm fed up all of em. God Bless Me and mine God bless America and I don't give a shit if you like it!
There is no debate. I am saddened when I see these conversations. I was a Marine of 24 years, my wife is a Marine SSgt currently overseas who has served for nearly 20 years, and my son is an OCS grad soon to be commisioned U.S. Marine 2ndLt. The bottom line is believers and unbelievers alike will be in the same position. A defensive one! And I want to be standing with you "kind" folks who scream for equality when the enemy has COMPLETELY taken this country over. Many of you will see most Americans praying to God for mercy and grabbing weapons to protect their family and neighbors. What are you prepared to do? Sadly, you keep taking freedoms away from those who keep this country protected…..and you don't even realize it.
A simple way around simple minds is to just make the cover removable, and provide them free of cost if the purchaser wants to receive it.
That way both sides are happy, people who want the symbol on their Bible may have that way and people who don't want Bibles sold with symbols on them may have it their way. A win – win situation for both and as long as the Bible is being read… who cares what the cover looks like?
This is a victory for the constitution and those who love and respect our secular based system. Well done!
Joe Distefano, is the Military allowed to stand up fro religious freedom? All religious freedom, or just your brand of it?
If I were face to face with Weinstein I would call It a liar to Its face. I bet these anti-Constitutional bigots got maybe 20 complaints. Even if these ignorant folks did get 2000 complaints– how about the 10s of millions that are serving and have served in the military. They are just another minority group that has no clue what the constitutions says or means.
If they really believe there is no God, wonder what atheists are so scared of. Wonder why Christians are becoming the only ones whose religious freedom is threatened….
First of all, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) is NOT an Atheist group as this dishonest author wrote. MRFF represents everyone, including Atheists, Jews, Christians, etc. In fact, the majority of complaints that MRFF handles are filed by Christians.
As an Atheist myself, I can tell you I'm not scared of you or your god. I just demand equality. What's wrong with demanding equality? The Supreme Court has made it clear that the U.S. government and military are to remain neutral on religion. They cannot give the appearance they endorse any religion. It's that simple. If I can't have their stamp on my Atheist books, then how in the hell is it fair that you have their stamp of approval on your Bible? Explain that one to me.
And please explain exactly how your religious freedom is being threatened.
96% of the clients MRFF serves are christians.
Most of the Constitutional scholars shout hurrah! when the government steps in to suppress freedom of religion, but are strangely (or not so strangely) silent when the government fails to protect the expression of religion, as the Constitution requires.
If your expression of religion consists of leading or coercing others to pray or sponsor your unsubstantiated beliefs, you have no rights.
Tim: Thanks for proving my point. Your assistance is very much appreciated.
You're welcome, play with your toys at home.
"Leading" other is fine, part of the first amendment is the freedom to proselytize. Let's be specific if we are going to pick at others, shall we? "Coercing", however, is different, and I agree with you there.
Amen to that Ralph,…Thank You for your 'Military Service' in the USMC for our America, and our Freedoms…that includes the freedom to read the Bible, etc.,.
Is there an opportunity for a military version of the Catholic Bible, the Upanishads or the Koran?
If publishers can produce those then no fear of a national Baptist religion. I wonder how much a satanic bible, military version will go for? I suspect that the Military versions of the Rastafarian's text will not go over too well.
The military services are required to support the needs of its troops spiritually via the use of the Chaplain Corps. If there are a sufficient number of service members who profess a religion or belief, the military service is required to support a chaplain if one is available who meets the qualifications for commission. If not the service is required to provide adequate facilities for worship and/or meeting. If that means providing a satanic or rastafarian text…then the service does so. What is being talked about in this article is a private corporation's use of a trademarked image on the cover of its privately produced edition of the Bible.
So, if someone publishes a satanic bible and is authorized by the service to use its emblem…well, welcome to a free-market economy. Removing the book from the stores on base is being done by the publisher for copyright issues. You can still purchase the bible and a number of other religions's texts on post.
How about all Christians and Jews get out of the military and let the atheists defend our country. We'll all just sit back and see how they fair. I bet you'll have a ton of conversions. As the old saying goes, "There's no atheists in a firefight".
If you think we should have a Christian military, how about everyone that is not Christian, including Christians who do not believe government approval of their religion is appropriate, be exempt from ever having to serve? If there were no atheists in a firefight, how do you explain all the atheist and agnostic headstones in military cemeteries, jerk?
Come now, Davy boy, did I hit a nerve? I never said that should have a Christian army. I'm saying that you guys are making a mountain out mole hill. I've served all over the world and I have yet to see all these agnostic/atheists headstones you speak of. What's these headstones say, "Here lies Pvt. John Doe. All dressed up with no place go"?
I love the name-calling, too. It's just shows your lack of maturity on grown-folk subjects. what are you, 12? Find Jesus, then get a life.
I agree Leon.
and you know there are no atheists in a foxhole because of what research or personal experience? I have news for you. your trite expression is a false assumption. by the way, here the entire list of religious emblems that are currently available to deceased service members, and yes, the cemetaries have many stones with the nonchristian symbols.http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp
No thanks, I rejected religious delusions a long time ago and am much better for it. If you need a god to make you behave or to give yourself meaning, then it's you that needs to get a life. I have one
Leon, there are many atheist and agnostics who have served as well as members of other religions in this nation. Wiccans not long ago finally won the right to have their faith symbols placed on their fallen's tombstones, something that should have been a no-brainer were this nation to truly value religious egalitarianism. It was a frustrating fight for them. Sikhs also had an uphill battle. Religious freedom does not mean the freedom to assume your domination and push for your right to disrespectfully proselytize at will toward others. I know that Christianity is one religion , and probably the only one, that incorporated this trait into the practice of the beliefs, but it is not welcomed by most people of other faiths and is intrusive. Why this publisher feels the need to brand their Bibles with the branches of the armed forces is questionable. Would you be so in favor of this practice if it were allowed on a Koran, a Bhagavad Gita, a Wiccan spellbook?? I can hardly wait to see those on sale at an exchange and the "religious freedom" crowd's reaction!! I'm just glad that we are slowly entering an era where non-Christian military people can feel free to reveal and practice their faith without fear of too much reprisal by those in positions of power over them. That is when we'll have true religious freedom, as ironic as it may be.
I've been serving under our Nation's flag my entire adult life and have been to war. I can tell you this much, when the proverbial $h!t hits the fan, I've never seen anyone praying to a tree or saying a spell to protect them from harm. What I have seen is people who routinely say they don't believe in any God closing their eyes and saying "oh God, oh God!" I also haven't ever seen anyone say "oh mother earth, please help me." I could care less what religion you are, but don't try to cheapen mine with your uneducated and ignorant stance. How is placing military emblems on a Bible a threat to anything? Last time I checked our Nation was founded as one nation, UNDER GOD. Never saw anything about one nation under mother earth or a tree or anything else.
the military is gov't and gov't will NOT endorse ANY religion: Amendment 1 of the Bill of Rights:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…"
That's funny. No atheist headstones exist, despite the fact that an official symbol for atheists, agnostics, and skeptics for headstones in military cemeteries, and my father is buried with one. Here's a link you might want to look at before opening that trap of yours again and saying something that stupid:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Atheist+headstone+arlington&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=q-vYT8_9B-WA6gG08OWPAw&biw=1505&bih=624&sei=r-vYT_aPDKjI6gGNvrGRAw
This link is just for atheist headstones, and just in Arlington. As for the name calling, sometimes ignorant braying jerks need to be told what they are, which I think is appropriate in this case. You opened your mouth with something stupid and wrong, and I proved you were stupid and wrong.
Dave- you are free. You are free to decide what you like or not. You are free to leave the country if you do not like the idea that this country was founded on christian values. I used to be sick and tired of religious folks showing up at my door and trying to do a convert. They don't bother me much, as I see it we're on the same team. But as time goes by, I'm really getting sick and tired of sniveling atheists and agnostics using lawyers and law suits to take apart and dismantle the things that created this country and made it great. Face it, God, Guns and Guts made this country Great. Not whining atheists. I hear a bridge calling your name, you should get back to it.
No, Herman, I choose to stay and fight ignorance whether you approve or not. If you don't like it, put up a fight, but you are always on the losing side of history.
This is hogwash. My father, grandfather, and step-father all served in combat, and were atheists beginning to end.
Leon Guthrie Actually those headstones for atheists and humanists are provided by the VA,just like the headstones for Wiccan and Muslims as wellAnd you will see those headstones a Arlington national Cemetery outside of Washing DC.So you are a bit behind the times. And no I doubt that any of the atheists in the military are going to convert. They certainly have not done so throughout our history.So you statement is as silly as the ol saw that there are no atheists in fox holes. There are and will always be.
Was it a slow news day? Is the media's steady refusal to offer news, simply presented, becoming difficult to fill 24 hours with? My religious beliefs aside…I don't give a damn about a company's marketing issues or the revocation of trademark permissions. At all. Not even a little bit.
To some of the previous Christian commenters: The Founders of our country, especially Jefferson, were Deists. There was a reason the phrase "Divine Providence" or simply "Providence" is so often used. They believed in God, but may not have attached a Judeo-Christian meaning to the word. To the Atheists, they DID however believe in God. Try to get over it; doesn't attacking every post by a Christian get boring? Both groups are remarkably easy targets for criticism.
It is, however, remarkably disingenuous to label this a national security issue. Those who attack our troops do so because of the uniform they wear, not the book in their tent.
Instead of these mindless and trivial stories, can I please be told what the President's exit strategy in Afghanistan is? Having served four combat tours in Afghanistan, I would dearly like to hear a strategy that sounds something like "Pack your crap, guys, time to go home. We can always come back if they do something stupid."
I feel forced to add something having reviewed other comments.
Those of us in the military are mystified at the amount of time some people have to do irrelevant and meaningless things.
Of course, I am sitting in a hospital, so time is the one thing I have.
Was it a slow news day? Is the media's steady refusal to offer news, simply presented, becoming difficult to fill 24 hours with? My religious beliefs aside…I don't give a damn about a company's marketing issues or the revocation of trademark permissions. At all. Not even a little bit.
To some of the previous Christian commenters: The Founders of our country, especially Jefferson, were Deists. There was a reason the phrase "Divine Providence" or simply "Providence" is so often used. They believed in God, but may not have attached a Judeo-Christian meaning to the word. To the Atheists, they DID however believe in God. Try to get over it; doesn't attacking every post by a Christian get boring? Both groups are remarkably easy targets for criticism.
It is, however, remarkably disingenuous to label this a national security issue. Those who attack our troops do so because of the uniform they wear, not the book in their tent.
Instead of these mindless and trivial stories, can I please be told what the President's exit strategy in Afghanistan is? Having served four combat tours in Afghanistan, I would dearly like to hear a strategy that sounds something like "Pack your crap, guys, time to go home. We can always come back if they do something stupid."
Always sad to see EVIL win.
So those of us who don't hold your unsubstantiated beliefs are evil?
So those of us who don't hold your unsubstantiated beliefs are evil?
It's important to remember that the generation of little boys who were brutally raped by christian clergy are now adults and anything that reminds them of what christian men are like is inappropriate.
National Security? No. Violating Defense Department rules? Yes. I have seen Army bibles, etc but they're really not supposed to. I mean if we can't openly support political candidates because we have to remain neutral, then no branch should openly support one religion over another. They could make Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Qurans, Torahs, and Bible – and so on – and then okay.
Certainly they could. But the capitalist laws of supply and demand apply here. If they can not sell a sufficient number…why make them? Oddly, no one has an issue with those "Chicken Soup for the Soldier's Soul" books. Which I know I saw here on post in the BX…
One thing I find so amusing about social conservatives is that they always feel that we need less government involvement in our lives. Get the government out of our business! The less the better.
Then when it comes to printing some bibles, you're all for government involvement.
The hypocrisy is quite amusing.
what's "cowardly" is that Mr. Crews has no problem with lies being printed in this bible with the quote attrbuted to George Washington being completely untrue and intentionally altered. How is it that Christians wish to be associated with liars when their god hates lies and liars, even if supposedly done for this god? (Romans 3)?
I just ordered two while I could http://www.christianbook.com/hcsb-marines-military-bonded-leather-burgundy/9781586401047/pd/401041?item_code=WW&netp_id=337571&event=ESRCG&view=details.
and I bet they're going fast….
any God feariing christan individual would have already be out of the armed services of the united states of SODOM/ God is americas enemy. God hates america and the only remedy for this Godless nation is total destruction. too late.
The atheists are perfectly free to go in the store and buy "nothing". Why do they insist on pushing their atheism on the rest of us?
Because this is OUR government and military, not just YOURS. Think about that for a while and maybe your head will fall off.
David Thompson I've actually thought about it for many, many years. It's my favorite topic. I don't mind atheists evangelizing and discussing their doctrines. I just don't like it when they try to silence mine.
No one is trying to. You can still buy a Bible. Just not one that violates both the Constitution and the military's own regulations.
Personally, I'm not really a big fan of buying a military themed bible even though I've been in the Army 19 years and own many Bibles. I would see it the same way as a military emblem on a Harley motorcycle or a custom army paint job on a pickup truck. You'd have to show me where that violated anything in the Constitution that I am sworn to uphold or any regulation.
All this shit with God being eliminated from everything is unbelievable. I hope all that this illegal Kenyan Muslim bastard can be reverted once he has been put in prison for rest of his life.
The first book printed in these United States was the King James Bible. Printed by who? Congress! For what? To be used in schools as a teaching aid and text book. My how times have changed!
Believe the Barton lies, Bud. Congress had the only big printing press, so who do you think printed anything? That's like saying Kinkos is a Christian organization because they printed a bunch of flyers. Morons.
"Congress shall make no law" Where has the Congress made a law here? Our Constitution has a reference to Christ. Artivle VII: Done by Unanimous Consent "In the year of our Lord".
I doubt its some emblem they are so concerned about, its the bible it self..the Bible has all truths in it and that's something the evil world cant handle..
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2012/06/15/the-lies-youll-probably-be-hearing-about-mrff-and-the-military-bibles/
As expected, MRFF is being grossly and deliberately misrepresented as an atheist organization whose aim is to rid the military of all Bibles and all religion. This is ridiculous. MRFF is not an atheist organization. In fact, 96% of MRFF’s 28,000 clients are Christians — Catholics and mainline Protestants who are not considered to be the right kind of Christians or Christian enough by the fundamentalists.
Before getting to the military Bible issue, I want you to watch a little video. The first part of this video is a collection of clips showing military chaplains and some of the many fundamentalist parachurch ministries that operate freely within the military clearly stating what their real mission is. The last few clips show the mission of these chaplains and parachurch ministries being put into practice in Afghanistan. (The ranks and positions identifying the individuals in this video are the ranks and positions they held at the time the clips were filmed.)
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2012/06/15/the-lies-youll-probably-be-hearing-about-mrff-and-the-military-bibles/
U.S. military regulations prohibit the endorsement of non-federal entities. The OCF is a non-federal entity that not only condones the mission of parachurch ministries and fundamentalist military chaplains who seek to turn the military into a force of “government-paid missionaries,” like those seen in the above video, but actually has that same mission itself.
The documents obtained by MRFF in response to a FOIA request submitted in June 2011, three months before the first of the military branches suddenly decided to revoke the license held by Holman Bibles for over eight years, show that AAFES (the Army and Air Force Exchange Service, which runs the BXs, PXs, and other stores on military bases) was clearly concerned about the complaints about the Holman Bibles, with emails as early as June 6, 2011 from AAFES to Lifeway saying that these Bibles had “become a hot issue,” and referencing and linking to a June 2, 2011 article on MRFF’s website as the reason they were becoming a hot issue. The article referenced by AAFES was an email from a MRFF client, an active duty JAG officer, about the use of the military emblems on these Bibles. In the article from FOX News, it sounds like the military had already decided to stop the use of the military emblems on the Bibles prior to being contacted by MRFF, but this is simply not true.
All these so-called Christians seem to completely overlook the moral irony of supporting an association with militarism's task of killing others. Keep your mythology peddling out of public institutions, for plenty of us hold no regard for your imaginary gods!
I don't think it is a coincidence that most athiests I know are very unhappy people, and any time someone has a different view or tells them an uncomfortable truth they just deny it and call people names.
Mr. Distefano,
I'm a Navy veteran, and I see nothing wrong with having the logo for branch of service on a bible. In fact, I have one with the Navy logo on it. Why are certain people being so nitpicky about this subject. If they don't want a logo on their bible, then they can buy one without it.