Feb 1, 2012
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The U.S. Forest Service has reversed its decision to remove a World War Two memorial from Montana’s Big Mountain because it included a statue of Jesus.
The Forest Service said it will re-authorize a permit for the 57-year-old statue after facing a firestorm of outrage from religious groups and local residents. The agency received more than 90,000 comments on the issue.
“We are thankful that the U.S. Forest Service reversed its prior decision and renewed the permit, keeping the Jesus statue where it belongs on Big Mountain,” said Jeff Mateer, general counsel for Liberty Institute, a conservative legal advocacy group. “This decision honors the ultimate sacrifice of the Tenth Mountain Division for whom it was erected following their service during World War Two, and is a clear victory for the First Amendment, which prohibits government discrimination against this historic veteran’s memorial simply because of its religious viewpoint.”
Forest Service supervisor Chip Weber told the Associated Press that the decision to renew a 10-year special-use permit took into account that the statue “is important to the community for its historical heritage.”
Hiram Sasser, director of litigation for Liberty Institute, told Fox News & Commentary the decision was an “easy call.”
“We were shocked that anybody would be offended by that,” Sasser said. “There’s a lot of controversy about religious items that are on government property but this is very different because this is private speech of an organization that was allowed by the government to put the statue on the land.”
The Freedom From Religion Foundation complained about the statue last spring. They plan to sue the federal government.
“A federal agency should not hold a vote on whether to obey the Constitution!” said Annie Laurie Gaylor, FFRF co-president.
“The U.S. Forest Service has unlawfully misused federal land owned by all of us to further Christianity in general, and Roman Catholicism in particular,” she said. “This diminishes the civil and political standing of nonreligious and non-Christian Americans, and shows flagrant governmental preference for religion and Christianity.”
With reporting from Associated Press
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“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments. Christians should NOT want this to remain…it's an IDOL.
By your very very narrow definition, so is the photo that you have for your username's icon here. No one is suggesting that this statue is there for worshiping. It is a memorial marker meant to honor the memory and sacrifice of members of the military.
Noooo because no one is worshiping the statue. The Nicene Council settled the issue of icons in any event, Betsy.
"We declare that painted Images and those in mosaic and other suitable material of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, of our undefiled Lady the Theotokos, of the honorable Angels, and of all the Saints and Holy People are to be placed in the holy Churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, on walls and panels, in houses and by the roadsides. For the more continually these persons are observed through such painted representations, so much the more will the observers be aroused to recollect or remember the depicted persons and to aspire after them."
"They will also be aroused, as is duly proper, to honor, reverence and salute such Images. Indeed, we do not say that people are to pay such Images the actual worship of faith which is properly due only to the Divine nature. But just as we do to the figure of the venerable and life-giving Cross, and to the Holy Book of Gospels and other sacred objects, so we must also honor Icons with the offerings of incense and candles; for such has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the Icon passes to its prototype, and he who venerates an Icon venerates through it the person that is depicted…."
I hope this helps.
Bruce Hughes Yeah, we're not talking Mecca here!
Bruce Hughes Yeah, we're not talking Mecca here!
Exodus 25:18, 20 (still at Mt. Horeb): "You shall make two cherubim of gold…The cherubim shall spread their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…" Context, context, context…
Exodus 25:18, 20 (still at Mt. Horeb): "You shall make two cherubim of gold…The cherubim shall spread their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another…" Context, context, context…
You are dumber than a abox of rocks! No one is worhsiping the statue. It's a memorial to war dead. Go back to your cave.
You are dumber than a abox of rocks! No one is worhsiping the statue. It's a memorial to war dead. Go back to your cave.
John Martin : of course the Nicene council was nothing but a bunch of men and their recommendation should only be held to the light of scripture, making offerings of incense and candles is idol worship. I do not believe that a representation of someone is idol worship if it is only meant to inspire you to look to God, but often people will do just the opposite and pray to Mary, or to some 'saint' or another.
John Martin : of course the Nicene council was nothing but a bunch of men and their recommendation should only be held to the light of scripture, making offerings of incense and candles is idol worship. I do not believe that a representation of someone is idol worship if it is only meant to inspire you to look to God, but often people will do just the opposite and pray to Mary, or to some 'saint' or another.
Umm, no it ain't…
Umm, no it ain't…
We don't worship the metal cross betsy, We worship the only true God who's son died on the cross. Nice try.
George Duane So you don't worship Jesus then? I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to understand this concept of the Trinity. Every time I say on these boards, Jesus=God=Holy Spirit, every one comes back with "If that's you're understanding of Jesus then you really are ignorant" and leave me like that. I want to understand but no-one is explaining this concept to me in a logical manner. Could you help?
Jesus Wins!
Nice he ended a long losing streak.
Nice he ended a long losing streak.
Mike Harlow Actually, Jesus won 2,000 years ago when he rose from the dead.
Mike Harlow Actually, Jesus won 2,000 years ago when he rose from the dead.
Lord Almighty. The memorial was erected to men who have served. Please read the article. Definite proof there are two kinds of people in the world, one, thinkers, and second believers… Guess who you are..
He always does and always will!!!
Dennis Fowler ''' Three kinds. I believe I will think about Christianity. I am not one but I see what people of your ilk are attempting to do. Your response to each individual shows the lack of tolerance that you pretend to promote. You want your rights and freedom but you are the first to deny it to others. Hypocrite. You're in DC so that is redundent.
What sort of proof do you require before you believe that a guy lived who turned air to fish and made dead people live again. This is the shame of the USA. We're a bunch of gullible people who will believe pretty much anything. LOL.
Al Wells , belief in religion is hardly an American problem. I think at least half of the world believes in the supernatural of some type. Religion is a human problem, not an American one.
Al Wells , belief in religion is hardly an American problem. I think at least half of the world believes in the supernatural of some type. Religion is a human problem, not an American one.
Al Wells , belief in religion is hardly an American problem. I think at least half of the world believes in the supernatural of some type. Religion is a human problem, not an American one.
Chalk one up for the good guys for sure.
Militant atheists have been aiming to eliminate crosses or Christian symblos in every corner of the hemisphere. They’ve sought to remove crosses that have marked roadside accidents were a life / lives have been lost. For a group that professes “tolerance”, “compassion” along with a kitbag full of other contemporary buzz words including peaceful coexistence, they show and continue to demonstrate an amazing LACK of what they preach.
Mike Harlow Jesus never lost. Even in His death, He laid forth the possibility of victory for us all. May the Lord bless you and keep you, Mike, and have mercy on yuor soul. May God have mercy on us all.
Darryl Their is a site bug and there rushing out freee ipaad two At http://www.facebook.com/nfgaevclncyfh/#!/pages/qtogzbroiedqme/182436775196403?kxdlblwbth get it before its too latee
Hallelujah…Hallelujah…God is still the boss and getting very angry with this nation…HE will have the last say!
Ceryl seriouslY!!!!????. Another profound Thomas jefferson quote.
Panel Four:
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
Dennis seriously?? talk about out of context…..
Dennis seriously?? talk about out of context…..
Dennis Fowler – Who cares about your Jefferson quotes. Say what you will but in the end, the unbeliever will ultimately lose!
How do you know God is a man? And if "God is love" then how can he be angry with this nation?
George Duane I care about Jefferson quotes because he was right. And warned about state sponsored relegions. Its a big reason why our country was founded in the first place.
George Duane :
Prove it!!!!!
Chris Cooksey :
Then please do, define the context for me….Long Pause. Insert crickets here…
Chris Cooksey :
Just FYI. A applaud the decision to keep the memorial. It stands for those who have dedicated their lives for our freedoms to believe or not. I applaud the decision on half of those who have given their lives, which is the intended reason for it's creation. Not to make a philosophical or religious point. That would be fact, not fiction.
Dennis Fowler 1. Jefferson was a faithful attendant at the Sunday church at the Capitol. He not only faithfully attended church, but Jefferson started the church at the Capitol Building on Federal Grounds. He also started the church at the War Department and the Treasury Department. And he called on the Marine Corp Band to play the music for these services.
2. He (Jefferson) once explained to a friend while they were walking to church together:
No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.
Paula Hall
Strange he should have varying opinions on the purpose of religion. Regardless, as a free society, I would never create legislation to force a belief or ideal on another. We were given a conscience by our creator. That is to be our guide primarily. Our constitution defines the framework for our society. I will always be guarded by anyone trying to force a ideal on others, whether it be liberal or conservative. I left my very conservative background because I figured out that religion can bind as well as free. It serves a purpose. As long as it does not forcefully bind a society or individual, I have nothing against it. It fulfills s purpose for some, but not for others. I am not to be punished for that understanding.
Dennis Fowler – Benjimin Rush – "The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
–The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.
FYI he was one of the 80 + founding fathers that were devout christians…read any history book prior to the 1940's and you will see. That is if you can even read the level america use to be.
Derek Deckert
He definitly was not a opponent of free thought. Are You?
Derek Deckert, God bless you man! you are making some excellent points!
Dennis Fowler RE: because I figured out that religion can bind as well as free.
He came to set the captives free. He also came to heal the broken hearted, make the blind see and the deaf hear. He came to preach the Good News to the poor. Can you find a message that is it's equal in all history? This is what us believers fight for. So all can enjoy these freedoms in the right here and now. The message is Light & Love and those of us who fight for it are of Light & Love.
Betsy, it's not an idol. no one is worshiping or bowing their heads to this graven image. They are bowing their heads in prayer to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice for thi great CHRISTIAN nation.
"America is in no way a Christian nation, nor was it founded upon the Christian religion" John Adams.
Tyris Leslie – Where do you get your facts from. This country was in fact founded upon with religious intent.
Derek Deckert Thats not what the founders said. They said we weren't a Christian nation and that we could worship whomever we want, or no one.
Derek Deckert Thats not what the founders said. They said we weren't a Christian nation and that we could worship whomever we want, or no one.
Quoted from the Treaty of Tripoli btw
Quoted from the Treaty of Tripoli btw
Tyris Leslie This is true but he also supported freedom of religious expression for all religions.
Tyris Leslie This is true but he also supported freedom of religious expression for all religions.
Derek Deckert Not quite, it was, however, founded on virtue. We have many Congress-people who attend religious services, but lack virtue.
Derek Deckert Not quite, it was, however, founded on virtue. We have many Congress-people who attend religious services, but lack virtue.
Mike Harlow Yup, no one denying that here. Personally I think the statue should stay.
Mike Harlow Yup, no one denying that here. Personally I think the statue should stay.
Tyris Leslie … Walk into a government building and look around.. SEE..What bothers me is if you were to complain against a muslim display there would be riots and heads would literally role. You see all around the world how fear and violence change minds. The organizations who file these lawsuits are the same zero tolerance brownshirts as the ows instigators. (free speach is what I say it is , you shut up)
Tyris Leslie … Walk into a government building and look around.. SEE..What bothers me is if you were to complain against a muslim display there would be riots and heads would literally role. You see all around the world how fear and violence change minds. The organizations who file these lawsuits are the same zero tolerance brownshirts as the ows instigators. (free speach is what I say it is , you shut up)
"“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” – George Washington
"“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” – George Washington
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” – George Washington
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” – George Washington
“The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” – United States Congress 1782
“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.” – John Adams and John Hancock
“The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
America may have been founded by christians, but they were very careful to design a secular type of government to enforce the establishment clause of the first amendment.
Mike Harlow – “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
- John Adams
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Adams
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
- John Adams
Derek Deckert This country was founded to permit religious & political freedom – not to perpetuate Christianity or any other religion. It allowed people to be a Christian of any variety they chose, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. or not Christian at all, rather than the state run version offered by England – which is exactly why the government is forbidden from establishment of any religion.
Tyris Leslie That's why the first thing done in the original halls of congress was a bible study…
Tyris Leslie Bull. Read your history; gee I wonder WHO they meant when they said "endowed by THEIR CREATOR". It aint Mother Nature so quit trying to rewrite history.
Derek Deckert read this quote from Thomas jefferson:
Panel Two:
"Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion . . . No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively."
Tyris Leslie who was you rhistory teacher???? a moron!
Tyris Leslie who was you rhistory teacher???? a moron!
Tyris Leslie You forgot of how the U.S. got started. It was started by the Pilgrims settling here, then everybody else followed suit. Why did the Pilgrims come here? The were a different branch of Christianity than the King of England, which meant that they would get in trouble for not obeying the King and succoming to his version of Christianity. They were Puritans and Puritans are Christian. The whole idea of this country and what Adams is trying to say is that people are free here to worship how they see fit. It is freedom of religon, not freedom from religon. That is why we have so many different denominations. You're free to be an athiest just as I am free to be christian, so why do you want to prevent other people from being free? You don't like the cross, then don't look at it. You probably have T-shirts I don't like, so I won't look at them. It's really no big deal.
Tyris Leslie You forgot of how the U.S. got started. It was started by the Pilgrims settling here, then everybody else followed suit. Why did the Pilgrims come here? The were a different branch of Christianity than the King of England, which meant that they would get in trouble for not obeying the King and succoming to his version of Christianity. They were Puritans and Puritans are Christian. The whole idea of this country and what Adams is trying to say is that people are free here to worship how they see fit. It is freedom of religon, not freedom from religon. That is why we have so many different denominations. You're free to be an athiest just as I am free to be christian, so why do you want to prevent other people from being free? You don't like the cross, then don't look at it. You probably have T-shirts I don't like, so I won't look at them. It's really no big deal.
We are not a christian nation. It's legal to covet your neighbor's wife, take your invisible sky wizard's name in vain, you don't get to rape women and simply pay their dad 50 pieces of silver and marry her to make amends… there's nothing christian about our nation.
We are not a christian nation. It's legal to covet your neighbor's wife, take your invisible sky wizard's name in vain, you don't get to rape women and simply pay their dad 50 pieces of silver and marry her to make amends… there's nothing christian about our nation.
Derek Deckert, you are incorrect. This country was first settled for profit, some came here to get away from the Church of England later and then later still a constitutional convention was held and being based on any faith was rejected. Our constitution is 100% secular which is why it goes into things like how old you have to be to be president and other such things. There's nothing mythological in our founding.
Derek Deckert, you are incorrect. This country was first settled for profit, some came here to get away from the Church of England later and then later still a constitutional convention was held and being based on any faith was rejected. Our constitution is 100% secular which is why it goes into things like how old you have to be to be president and other such things. There's nothing mythological in our founding.
Al Wells “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Adams
Al Wells “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.”
- John Adams
Mark Laperle if you wanna start quoting founders, let's quote them all. You can start with Franklin who went to seminary, quit and stated flatly that he did not believe. BTW, you're misquoting Adams. But, who would expect a mythology believer to be honest anyways.
Tyris Leslie . Then I would believe, if I'm going to think like you that there should be no Christian value's to live by, I should legaly be able to end your sorry life if I choose. No morals no teaching of right or wrong, screw anybody that would dare think different! I don't believe this great country was meant to be governed that way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess those laws about killing people or stealing money or comitting adultery just fell out of the sky and don't relly count. More like meek suggestions or some one's wet dream. Your an Idiot!!!!!!!!
Mark Laperle BTW, here's a single source the rebuts all the claims that Christians like to make about the founders. How sad it is that mythology believers go around making dead men say things they never said. http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/peters-misquotes.shtml
Ken Jacobs You should read a Jeffersonian bible to see if he agrees with you regarding who the "creator" is. Jefferson found your mythology so ridiculous that he tore the entire bible to pieces and put it back together with no miracles attributed to Jesus. If you're gonna appeal to Jefferson's "god", then you may as well be an atheist as Jefferson did not believe in a personal god – and he's the fella who wrote the ONE WORD you cling to in the Declaration of Independence (which, by the way, is not the constitution and has no force of law).
Bill Lamb There is no law about committing adultery (perhaps a state here and there but not a national one) and, so's you know, pretty much all societies (christian or otherwise) make it illegal to rape and kill. "Morality" does not flow from your mythology and if you read your bible, you'll find there's very little civility in it.
Tyris Leslie
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Chp 3, page 9
Tyris Leslie As a Christian I agree- this nation was founded on the precept of religious freedom- to worship, or NOT worship as you see fit. But they never ever intended the government to be the arbiter of whether or not a statue of Jesus, erected as a memorial to fallen soldiers should be allowed. To suggest they would've objected to that is naive, and simply wrong. The government had no problem supporting Christian monuments, slogans, and even missionary work back in the founding days.
Tyris Leslie
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
Adams to his wife Abigail in a letter July 3, 1776
Sorry, but your quote is from a single person's (Adam's) viewpoint: Samuel Chase – As a Supreme Court Justice he said, "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." (Signer of Declaration of Independence). 54 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence went to Christian worship services three times weekly (so did George Washington, who stated during his presidency, "The State shall not run the Church, and the Church shall not run the State. But make no mistake about it, without the Church there will be no State"). And who were the Pilgrims?
Tyris Leslie
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
The writings of Thomas Jefferson Pg 385.
What I am getting at with these quotes is unlike those used by revisionists is they are not taken out of context.
Revisionists like to use quotes cutting out the paragraph and in some cases even mixing the sentences within to make a falsehood.
Much like "Seperation of Church and State" which was never in the Constitution and a focal point for atheists' arguments as if it were.
Even more alarming is the fact that some believe them to be factual.
Jefferson was a Christian, the fact that he omits every word besides those of "Jesus Christ" from his bible is omitted by these charlatans.
They claim others were Diests, Diests don't pray, go to church, have prayer books, or in Jefferson's case even write them.
John Taggart Agreed, but the reason that happens is because WE allow these cultists of islam, these zealots to get away with that kind of behavior. It's time we step up and take the stand against them and let them know we are no longer going to tolerate their actions or their "religion".
Tyris Leslie That is not a John Adams quote- as much as you would like it to be
Tyris Leslie -Has a thinly veiled hatred of christians brewing just under the surface.Kind of hard to contain huh?
If you look at the majority of his posts they follow an anti christian theme.
I agree with what many are saying.Their is a war against christians in process right now and I have drawn my line in the sand and taken my side.I do believe in freedom of speech though, so he IS entitled to his opinion,however offensive I may find it.
John Taggart , you mean like when Muslims attempted to build a temple in Murfeesboro? Townspeople sued and stopped it, and there was no Muslim violence – or violence by anybody else in retaliation. Look around before you generalize so much. There are lots of other examples where Muslims have been discriminated against, or had violence brought against them, and did not retaliate with violence.
Tyris Leslie – Would that be the same John Adams that wrote the Constritution of Massachusetts and in it wrote:
"The governor shall be chosen [annually]; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; [and unless he shall at the same time, be seised in his own right, of a freehold within the commonwealth of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion"
Also, do a little research, the old song and dance you are spouting is the only thin thread you folks can cling to, the "Treaty of Tripoli" and many scholars disagree in the authenticity of the that statement, there is great dispute at to whether it was even in the text as it was originally read to congress. That notwithstanding, there are FAR more examples of this country being referred to as a Christian Nation then the one you cling to.
Mark Laperle Couldn't have put it better myself. You go boy.
John Valvoda yes it is
Mark Laperle
Fortunately, the US Constitution is the Trump card here.
Matt Bowman Because they knew that dictatorship is the default position of man. Not in anyway that they were against Christianity. They were for the most part
l profound Christians.
Tyris Leslie No, they the very reason why the Battle of Tripoli was fought was because Muslims have always had a holy war against Christianity. And they targeted us because we were Christians.
Tyris Leslie – The quote you refer to is from a the first Treaty of Tripoli which was a muslim nation. This clause was used to alay their fear that the US would be at war with them because we were perceived as a Christian nation. Doesn't it seem appropriate that this would need to be inserted into a treaty becaus the muslim nations perceived the US as a Christian Nation. Considering most of our founding documents are infused with Judaeo/Christian values and principles and our Government demonstrated this by the inclusion of prayer in all of their proceedings that a peace treaty needed to assure our potential enemy that it wasn't a foregone conclusion that as a "perceived" Christian nation that we would be at war with a muslim nation.
Tyris Leslie, to say this nation was not founded on or with Christian ideals would imply to me that you have not read our Constitution. How anyone could read it and not pick up on the Christian concepts is beyond me. But you are correct in that our Founders agreed we could worship whomever we want.
Mark Laperle
Good thing you don't follow the standards of the early church. Otherwise you might have to dress and behave differently than you do now. Some things are meant to change. Your brain was given to you as a functional decoder. One book alone should not limit that capability. It is a slap in the face of God that you would simply believe, then apply reason or consider options. Use the brain…..
In God we Trust. "We" being America. It's on your currency people!
Rich Martin …I've been looking around for 30 years.. I'm not convinced.I have a bucket full of evidence, you have a drop.
Tyris Leslie
Facepalm—. I've given up trying to argue with people like you who get their facts from a satirical, sarcastic comedy channel "news" show or a Michael Moore fake documentary. I'm willing to indulge children in childish thinking, but sometimes it's just too much.
Tyris Leslie, I can give you any quote you want from any of the over 80 founding fathers that dont out right say "GOD or Jesus" but they do state that without religion there can be no order. That the devine helped make our country what it is. Benjimin Rush, Thomas Jeffereson even Benjimin Franklin makes any devout Christians these days look like sunday school toddlers. Give me one quote that isn't written from a book of someone saying something that someone else said. Look at the proclamations, look at the original constitutions for every state. The evidence is in the pudding.
Paul Nelms have you actually watched one of those Michael Moore "fake" documentaries? You do know he is an ordained minister. Or were you just passing judgement on him as well without merit?
Whyeven bother to respond to Betsy? She is lost.
She may be lost, but remember our Father finds the Lost sheep and returns them to the flock. We as Christians are to help do the same. It is frustrating, though, to think their are people out there with that mindset. Right now we, as Christians, need to just start taking the Word to the streets and telling the Liberals "NO MORE!!!!!!!" Obviously their plan hasn't worked and we see the wonderful nation we have become since they have driven God in to the corner. I for one am not sitting down anymore. I pray in public whenever the Lord calls on me to do so and I share the joy He has given me with someone every day I can. Let them try to silence me. AIN'T HAPPENIN!!!! All be blessed!
She may be lost, but remember our Father finds the Lost sheep and returns them to the flock. We as Christians are to help do the same. It is frustrating, though, to think their are people out there with that mindset. Right now we, as Christians, need to just start taking the Word to the streets and telling the Liberals "NO MORE!!!!!!!" Obviously their plan hasn't worked and we see the wonderful nation we have become since they have driven God in to the corner. I for one am not sitting down anymore. I pray in public whenever the Lord calls on me to do so and I share the joy He has given me with someone every day I can. Let them try to silence me. AIN'T HAPPENIN!!!! All be blessed!
Tanya Fowler Vbogart " Right now we, as Christians, need to just start taking the Word to the streets…" Tanya, that's the whole problem. That's why you think you are under attack. Stop forcing Christianity down people's throats. Be silent as Timothy 1 suggests you be.
Steve Smith YOU ARE THE KIND OF PERSON I AM TALKING ABOUT. I WILL NOT BE SILENT AND I WILL STAND FOR MY SAVIOUR. TAKING THE WORD TO THE STREET INSTEAD OF SITTING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS IN A BUILDING IS NOT FORCING MY THOUGHTS OR RELIGION DOWN PEOPLE'S THROATS. WHEN I AM ASKED I SHARE. I DON'T PROTEST. BUT I INTEND TO ENCOURAGE. YOU NEED TO LEAVE THE CONFINES OF YOUR LIFE AND DO AS CHRIST STATED AND THAT IS TO GO OUT AND WITNESS TO ALL PEOPLES OF THE EARTH. SILENT? NOT A CHANCE!
Tanya Fowler Vbogart Hi Tanya. What happened, your caps button got stuck on? Your book tells you to pray privately, indoors. It also tells you women to be quiet. It also condones and advocates mass murder, infantcide and genocide. Why don't you follow that advice? Why cherry-pick the bits that suit you?
Tanya Fowler Vbogart Hi Tanya. What happened, your caps button got stuck on? Your book tells you to pray privately, indoors. It also tells you women to be quiet. It also condones and advocates mass murder, infantcide and genocide. Why don't you follow that advice? Why cherry-pick the bits that suit you?
Tanya Fowler, typing in all caps is considered yelling and bad manners. Being a rude Christian will not help your cause.
Tanya Fowler Vbogart You go girl – we are right there with you! Don't let people who misquote the word of God try to silence you!
Isn't it interesting… When people do things that offend me I'm told to look the other way. These quacks see something they don't like they sue. Please show me how this monument is govt sanctioned religion? Do I see Feds forcing people to come and worship? The Freedom of religion in bill of rights was to protect us from what was going on in England. Every time you had a new king, they forced you to follow their religion and arrested and murdered those that didn't follow the kings demand. Maybe if these idiots actually understood history things would be different. The Bill of Rights was not meant to be used to force those of religious faith out of the public square. It was to prevent the govt from telling you what and who to worship.
it is to be expected but there is strength in numbers and Christ is not on their "atheists" side. They will get their due reward but in the meantime we can continue to beat these losers back at every corner.
So I guess its ok with you if the American Muslims put a big statue of Allah on govt land.
Bob Bridges – thats funny, Muslims would never do that. They want to rule the world and force you to be a part of their religion or die.
Thomas Lankford Clearly you've not read your bible as it says the same thing. Luckily modern christians don't know what their mythology says or we'd all have far bigger problems than we do.
Bob Bridges No. It might bother me. However, the bill of rights were not put in to protect rights that everyone agrees with. Do you think free speech protections were to protect popular speech? This was a war memorial that was put up over 60 years ago. Leave it alone. Again, I find lots that offends me. I move on. I don't think how I can sue people to get my way.
Bob Bridges Let em try, I'll be the first one to bust it to pieces.
Thomas Lankford did Fox News tell you that or Rush Limbaugh?
Bob Bridges You can't display images of Allah. Also, this was not a big statue of Christ
Al Wells Wrong
Please, don't confuse the morons with the facts.
Bob Bridges Sure it is, if they have the permits to use the land. I may be wrong but dont they not allow images of Allah to be displayed, or is that just Moohamed?
Bob Bridges If you will look to see where Muslims built their mosques after they overtook/enslaved Christians – you will find they built them on top of the churches. look in Israel, Istanbul Turkey etc. etc. Just another way to dominate…
Bob Bridges i am pretty sure that muslims do not depict allah and it is not accpetable in there religion. thoughts?
Bob Bridges i am pretty sure that muslims do not depict allah and it is not accpetable in there religion. thoughts?
Bob Bridges i am pretty sure that muslims do not depict allah and it is not accpetable in there religion. thoughts?
Bob Bridges i am pretty sure that muslims do not depict allah and it is not accpetable in there religion. thoughts?
Bob Bridges i am pretty sure that muslims do not depict allah and it is not accpetable in there religion. thoughts?
Thomas Lankford you know so much about people that you've never met. And did you know that Jesus is in the muslim Koran? And that there's a miracle he performed in it that's not in the bible? You do have absolute knowledge about Muslims don't you?
Keith Maszczak And Christian churches were not built on Roman and/or pagan temples? Give it up. Just admit that all the religions of Abraham seek to dominate when they can.
Bob Bridges "So I guess its ok with you if the American Muslims put a big statue of Allah on govt land." Actually, that is the only way that this Jesus statue will survive a Supreme Court hearing. If it's on government land, the Supreme Court has time and time again ruled that there must be no favoring one religion over another (I know many people disagree with the Supreme Court but tough titties, that's the way the cookie crumbles). So you need not only one of Allah (which would be hard since Muslims are discouraged to think of god in personal terms — perhaps one of the 99 names of god they use in their mosques), a Wiccan symbol, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Scientologist symbol and one for all the other religions I've not mentioned. Only then, could a Jesus figure appear on government land.
I don't know where you studied the Faith Betsy, but My Father and the Father of Heaven everyone I know follows, tells us in the Bible to witness to the ends of the Earth and if this is a tool for us to make an impact and witness to strangers we can't reach, then I seriously doubt we will all be condemned to Hell. God says ANYTHING put before Him is an idol. I am so sure you don't have a tv show you can't miss or a football team you love to watch and probably don't have a singer you almost fall apart when you hear them. That can be considered idol worship too. I say HALLELUJIAH! Rise up Christians and take this country back!
JESUS CHRIST SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, and I will praise Him til there is no breath in me, He and He alone is worthy to be praised, worshiped and glorified. He saved me, He touched my mind, and He healed my body.
Nice prayer.
Nice prayer.
Amen.
Amen.
I wonder if jesus has a puke bucket for prayers like that.
Brady Johnson, no, there is no bucket for prayers like that. But there is a "bucket" for folks like you.
seek help fast, you are ill.
Brady Johnson Shame on you! Good luck on judgement day!
Edward Heaslip
Prove Judgement day…….
Edward Heaslip
Prove Judgement day…….
Brady, one day you will bow your knee and also confess Jesus is Lord. The wise have chosen to do this before they die however!
Brady, one day you will bow your knee and also confess Jesus is Lord. The wise have chosen to do this before they die however!
Mike O'Melia that might have been the worst come back ever, also, you claim to know what god/jebus has, and that is a sin. Edward Heaslip Thanks for the luck! Im pretty sure if you believe in god, you cant believe in luck… does god have a yatzee cup included in his plan or something?
Paul Wofford If Jesus was real he was gay, never married, wore dresses, loved long hair and the only love for another human Jesus ever mentioned was "I love David as though I love god"
Jesus on the cross cried "god why have you forsaken me?" Does that mean Jesus lost faith in god at the end? Did Jesus think god had to answer to him? It clearly shows that Jesus thought he was above god.
Brady Johnson – not a come back here Brady. Jesus loves you. If you change you mind and want to come to Jesus, he'll be there waiting for you. No one of use is better or holier than the other. I pray I make it and I pray you make it too.
Rob Vanderford Thats Christian of you.
Rob Vanderford and Paul, Try this… Zeus will forgive you for the false Idol you hold, i know in my heart Zeus exists, i have faith that he does, he touched me, and i know that when you are cowering below mount olympus you will not know how to address our king of the gods, but hopefully you will "add friend" him before that time comes! Zues Bless
Silly right? 3,000 years ago, that would have been you.
I know that may be a bit obnoxious, but take a step back and really look at why you "know" there is a god sir, it is because humans, and society, are a complicated animal. What if you were born and raised in Iran?
Brady Johnson How old were you when Zeus touched you? there are laws about that and he can go to prison lol
Brady Johnson there are "christians" on here that Jesus wouldn't go near. And the book of Matthew in the bible instructs them to pray in private but they all disobey the "word of God" anyway and flaunt their relegion in public.
Brady Johnson
What you don't know makes you who you are.
God may just be out of your reach and you have no desire to use any of your personal effort to make sure you are right. You already know becaue it is accepted by all of your self-absorbed peers that he is just imaginary being. After all, they have never been wrong about anything you can remember and certainly not about something that important. They are like self-professed scientists or scholars and understand how the universe works, so they say.
Brady Johnson
Your delusions have been noted. Go get your tinfoil.
Paul Nelms, Brady is talking over your head. Sorry you didn't get it. Maybe he's just too educated to be a good Christian.
Bob Bridges
Your posturing as an intellectual with philosophical prowess is comical. Your incoherent maunderings are peppered with non sequiturs, misspellings, and general stupidity. I'm guessing you took Philosophy 101 at Community College.
No wonder you and brady there have a connection.
Paul Nelms Finite action deserves infinite punishment? What a sorry, pathetic superstition. But keep whistling in the dark Paul. You've already convinced yourself he's there.
Paul Nelms, another mean spirited Christian evangelinut has spoken. Showing their butt in Jesus's name. I don't posture as an intelletual, I am one. And attacking the messenger is par for the course when the truth is abhorrent. There's no group in America that's a threat to world peice more so than the Talibaptists and other praying-for-war Christians.
Paul Nelms, another mean spirited Christian evangelinut has spoken. Showing their butt in Jesus's name. I don't posture as an intelletual, I am one. And attacking the messenger is par for the course when the truth is abhorrent. There's no group in America that's a threat to world peice more so than the Talibaptists and other praying-for-war Christians.
That's world peace….. what the atheists and non-Christians want but folks like Pat Robertson, Bennie Hinn, and other relegious fanatics don't want.
That's world peace….. what the atheists and non-Christians want but folks like Pat Robertson, Bennie Hinn, and other relegious fanatics don't want.
Bob Bridges
Just remember, when you insult the intelligence of christians, you insult men and women who stand so far above and beyond your abilities to acheive, understand, or see outside your own self interest that everything else you say, on any subject is now tainted with mediocre thought and reasoning.
It is what it is and sadly you are what you are.
Bob Bridges
Just remember, when you insult the intelligence of christians, you insult men and women who stand so far above and beyond your abilities to acheive, understand, or see outside your own self interest that everything else you say, on any subject is now tainted with mediocre thought and reasoning.
It is what it is and sadly you are what you are.
Steve Smith
If the Darwinian fairytale is the best you atheists can come up with as something to "grasp onto," then it's no wonder you're so readily misled in your faithlessness.
But, you digress.
Steve Smith
If the Darwinian fairytale is the best you atheists can come up with as something to "grasp onto," then it's no wonder you're so readily misled in your faithlessness.
But, you digress.
Paul Nelms, what a jerk, I'm more of a Christian than you ever will be. And you're obviously a nut.
Paul Nelms Its men like you that turn people off to Christianity. Imagine Jesus saying. " Thou shalt be a judgmental, mean spirited, stone throwing jack ass and do this in my name." Its Anti-Christ of which you are a part of.
Paul Nelms Paul, they have proved Evolution over and over again in the last 150 years. If you haven't read a recent scientific overview then you are speaking from ignorance and will come out with such things as "are we descended from monkeys or stones?" A recent gallop poll showed evidence that the longer you spent in church, the more likely you would not believe the facts before your eyes re evolution. If you want to keep your head in the sand about science, then do so. Hey, it worked for 1,000 years or so once before: there is a reason why they call it the Dark Ages.
Paul Nelms Paul, they have proved Evolution over and over again in the last 150 years. If you haven't read a recent scientific overview then you are speaking from ignorance and will come out with such things as "are we descended from monkeys or stones?" A recent gallop poll showed evidence that the longer you spent in church, the more likely you would not believe the facts before your eyes re evolution. If you want to keep your head in the sand about science, then do so. Hey, it worked for 1,000 years or so once before: there is a reason why they call it the Dark Ages.
Paul Nelms. Evolution is a fact with a working mechanism, that of natural selection, and has thousands of applications that are utilized by scientists to make your everyday life better. Can you tell me the working mechanism behind Creationism, or give me a single application?
Bob Bridges
If you don't like being called a bigot, then simply don't be one.
Jesus was never shy about calling out liars and hypocrites. Read your Bible. You might learn something
Steve Smith
What you don't know makes you who you are.
If you want to use Gallup as your gauge then you might like this nugget. A recent Gallup poll from June of 2011 revealed that 92% of Americans say they believe in God. So I'm mainstream America. You are the kook fringe to put it mildly. But, hey, we all have to fit in somewhere.
Tim Gale
You seem again confused. Mine is not the extraordinary claim.
My claim explains the creation of nature and man in a nutshell without abstracts that has been accepted for thousands and thousand of years. God created everything in perfection and in perfect natural equilibrium and put man in charge.
Man's perception of God being the only question left up to the imagination.
Yours is the extraordinary claim that bits and pieces of chance assembled DNA goo bonded together for no real reason and that evolved after some 13 billion or so years into a living, breathing, thinking, inventive and highly social creature capable of even questioning his beginning and his creator. This far-fetched chance occurrence is beyond logical belief to rational thinkers.
With all due respect to your most civil response, my grasp of science is a bit more traditional than your current and PC brand that seems to omit God and even natural law from all equations.
Pure Science has it’s foundations in religion, philosophy as well as astrology, so when that is removed, where is the foundation of the art?
Your present PC science has its foundation in sociology and politics. A poor foundation for TRUTH to say the least.
Paul Nelms "What you don't know makes you who you are." Awesome Paul. You clearly have no idea of science or how this world is put together. I'm just reading today new research that says: "People of low intelligence gravitate toward socially conservative ideologies, which stress resistance to change and, in turn, prejudice. " That is: religion. Keep giving Christians a bad name Paul, the Dark Ages might just yet return.
Steve Smith
And you believe you are giving militant atheism a high and righteous name?? lol!!
Sadly, You dig yourself deeper and deeper making statements that have absolutely no verifiable facts. It simply shows an abiding hatred for anyone with traditional beliefs.
A hatred for Christianity and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
Paul Nelms OK Paul, let's talk about facts from your book. Answer me this one simple question: Who actually went to the tomb of Jesus?
Paul Nelms, Natural selection is the very opposite of chance. FACT!
Steve Smith
I believe if you read Luke 24 1-10 you will find the answer for yourself. I'm not going to do your research for you. Oh, wait is this one of those half-baked ffrf nutcase conspiracy theory gotcha scenarios?
Please, entertain me with your new "facts", I'd love to hear this.
Tim Gale
http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/23/evolution-creation-debate-biology-opinions-contributors_darwin.html
"In 1942, Nobel Laureate Ernst Chain wrote that his discovery of penicillin (with Howard Florey and Alexander Fleming) and the development of bacterial resistance to that antibiotic owed nothing to Darwin's and Alfred Russel Wallace's evolutionary theories.
The same can be said about a variety of other 20th-century findings: the discovery of the structure of the double helix; the characterization of the ribosome; the mapping of genomes; research on medications and drug reactions; improvements in food production and sanitation; new surgeries; and other developments.
Additionally, I have queried biologists working in areas where one might have thought the Darwinian paradigm could guide research, such as the emergence of resistance to antibiotics and pesticides. Here, as elsewhere, I learned that evolutionary theory provides no guidance when it comes to choosing the experimental designs. Rather, after the breakthrough discoveries, it is brought in as a narrative gloss.
The essence of the theory of evolution is the hypothesis that historical diversity is the consequence of natural selection acting on variations. Regardless of the verity it holds for explaining biohistory, it offers no help to the experimenter–who is concerned, for example, with the goal of finding or synthesizing a new antibiotic, or how it can disable a disease-producing organism, what dosages are required and which individuals will not tolerate it. Studying biohistory is, at best, an entertaining distraction from the goals of a working biologist.
It is noteworthy that Darwin's and Wallace's theories of evolution have been enormously aggrandized since the 1850s. Through the writings of neo-Darwinian biologists, they have subsumed many of the biological experimental discoveries of the 20th century. This is so despite the fact that those discoveries were neither predicted nor heuristically guided by evolutionary theory. "
Paul Nelms Well who was it Paul? Was it Mary alone (John 20:1)? Mary and another Mary (Matthew 28:1)? Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (Mark 16:1)? Or women who had accompanied Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem—possibly Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and “other women” (Luke 24:1; see 23:55)? This is no conspiracy theory. This is just what appears in your incontrovertible book of "facts". If the Bible can't get this one fact right about its central belief, what can it get right? There are hundreds more of these examples but of course you recognized them all and have no qualms reconciling all these inconsistencies. Or you don't care? Or you're gonna cop out and say "different witnesses remember different things" when really the witnesses are viewing different things all together—if their stories aren't all fiction in the first place.
Paul Nelms, Philip S. Skell was part of the discovery institute and not even a biologist. Vaccination was discovered by Edward Jenner who died before Darwin's 'Origin' was published in 1859 so it cannot be the case that vaccination was an application of evolution. At best the article argues that not all the applications claimed owe anything to evolution. Nowadays, applications basically fund the study into evolution: Fact. Again, tell me the working mechanism behind creationism and give me just 1 application!
Steve Smith
I could go to nobeliefs.com or infidels.org and copy and paste that same kind of blogtrash too? What did you prove? Absolutely nothing. What do you even think you proved is the more pertinent question?
You assume that the Bible is written in one genre: a literal and descriptive account. While the Bible does indeed contain literal and descriptive accounts, it also contains many other styles of composition, the Proverbs list "rules of thumb," the Psalms communicate through poetry, many teachings/prophecies are in the form of hyperbole and metaphor, parables contain deeper messages, since the Bible is actually many books of different genres by several different authors, it's no wonder your false assumption leads you astray if it is used to create contradictions where complimentation exists.
What you view as a contradiction, to many can be seen as complimentation. It all depends on which lens you are looking through.
It seems quite clear to me that yours is quite foogy and distorted.
Tim Gale
What I find most interesting is because someone doesn't fit your preconceived mold of what a "scientsit" should be (accept the theory of evolution without any questions) then Mr. Skell and thousands of other scientsits like him should be automatically disqualified from the discussion? That's not a real open mind you have there. Seeing as I never claimed to be a scientist or that I have all the answers, I refer you to someone much smarter than I on the subject and maybe this will help you in your knowledge quest.
http://www.amazon.com/Not-Chance-Shattering-Modern-Evolution/dp/1880582244/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328374819&sr=1-1
Man will never achieve the means to PROVE God does or does not exist because it is a spiritual endeavor and man has yet to reach that level of knowledge in his thinking and technology to even develop DNA, life, or even energy from scratch. That's where faith in something more important and bigger than in ones self comes in.
Continue to dig through the “political” findings of scientific evidence provided by the paid political science community and you will continue to get the political subscribed proof that God does not exist because that is the political motive behind the current PC science and that is the truth you do not want to understand.
Paul Nelms, (1) Philip S. Skell was not a biologist. (2) He was voicing his opinion against evolution, not offering any evidence for Creationism. (3) As Creationism has no working mechanism, high school science classes would consist of "So as you see children, God did it". (4) Those biologists who claim evolution is false account for virtually 0% of the body of world-wide biologists. (5) Scientists who do advocate Creationism overwhelmingly do so with a bible in one hand.
Moving on, although you can prove a negative, you can't prove a negative in the supernatural realm. So, using your words I could say, "Man will never achieve the means to PROVE Smurfs do or do not exist because it is a spiritual endeavor and man has yet to reach that level of knowledge. Finally,the scientific does not evoke god in their finding because there is absolutely no evidence for it. If the evidence lead to god that is what I would be believing but it does not.
The rule of thumb is to ignore the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Dave Silverman is what we call an 'in real life troll' who stirs up controversy where there is none. He isn't fighting the good fight to make America more tolerant of atheism, he is agitating to garner more attention for himself and his organisation.
There is nothing wrong with Atheists, I would prefer if they gave Christ a chance but it's their choice and IMHO God gave us all a choice.
Do know that if someone pushes Christ on you in such a way as to turn you from him the person doing so is sinning.
Giving and receiving both require open hands, and an open heart.
Louis Robbins
I was a firm believer for 34 years. Then the light came on. A ton of weight left my life. Suddenly I was free. Truly Free. Philosophy should never be stated as fact, and a poor mistake among religions… Uneducated at best.
You mean like you are "fighting the good fight to make America more tolerant of christianity"?
“This decision honors the ultimate sacrifice of the Tenth Mountain Division for whom it was erected following their service during World War Two, and is a clear victory for the First Amendment, which prohibits government discrimination against this historic veteran’s memorial simply because of its religious viewpoint.”.
As a Christian Veteran, I would like to thank the U.S. Forest service for their decision. I would also appreciate it if the Freedom From Religion people would end their bitter, secular crusade towards Christianity.
What if non-believers are being "honored" with this mythology dolly? Why should they have their wills ignored becuase some others and some of the living are mythology followers and want to put up Jesus dollies?
Al Wells You are showing your ignorance. The New Testament is one of the most solidly attested to work of the ancient world. To call it "mythology" is to say you know nothing of actual mythology, or the New Testament.
Al Wells… yup, you look like a person that know the "truth"… not so much
Al Wells
I suppose you think yourself the "voice" of these people you never knew?
Al Wells using "dolly" to validate your hair splitting, "What if", argument is rather childish and I'm afraid quite revealing to your true character. I'll be praying for you in hopes that may see the light of the Lord and the darkness of your ignorance. Refer to Antony Flew and C.S. Lewis as two examples of atheists that set out to disprove GOD, only to finally find peace in Him.
Scott Mohr, well put!
Scott Mohr :
It is a solid work of historical value. It was based on understanding of it's time. To say otherwise is to suggest you know and can manifest the mind of God or are a time traveler. Neither skills which I believe anyone living has.
Scott Mohr :
It is a solid work of historical value. It was based on understanding of it's time. To say otherwise is to suggest you know and can manifest the mind of God or are a time traveler. Neither skills which I believe anyone living has.
Scott Mohr :
It is a solid work of historical value. It was based on understanding of it's time. To say otherwise is to suggest you know and can manifest the mind of God or are a time traveler. Neither skills which I believe anyone living has.
I wonder if they have tax exempt status. I wonder if there rhetoric could be considered a hate crime?
I wonder if they have tax exempt status. I wonder if there rhetoric could be considered a hate crime?
I wonder if they have tax exempt status. I wonder if there rhetoric could be considered a hate crime?
Harry Reinhardt
Haha
Like!!!
Scott Mohr The Bible has to be THE most edited, re-written and forged work in history. To claim it is historical it ludicrous. Even my minister never claimed it to be anything but metaphor. It is full of inconsistencies which is surprising given that it's been re-written so many times that the church couldn't even get it's stories straight. There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus outside of the Bible. Any you mention (Josephus (sp?) etc) were years later and never knew him and, most likely, their accounts were forged. You would have thought that with all the miracles Jesus allegedly did, someone would have mentioned it. But no, outside of the Bible a big ZILCH. It's fine if you want to claim its philosophy but don't even go there on a historical basis.
Steve Smith, "Forged"? Are you taking a page from Dr. Ehrman, the author of "Forged: Why the Bibles Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are"? If not, then you both make the same sensationalized argument based on top skimming, pseudo facts. I've heard this all the before about Paul using secretaries and so on to write his letters. But, they are all seriously weak and worn out arguments from long ago. Some translation has been lost from Greek to Latin to English and no one will argue that here but are Forgery? Really? Jesus loves you! Have a Blessed day!
Steve Smith, Oh and those contemporary accounts of Jesus outside the Bible. Exactly what manuscript would have those accounts. I know of one! THE KORAN! Yes the Koran has a lot about Jesus in it even though it was written some 500 years later. Now, keep in mind that most people couldn't read and write at the time so things were passed on verbally and unfortunately some things were never written down. Also most of those people that witnessed Jesus perform those miracles probably became members of the first churches being formed or just remained practicing Jews.
Darryl Lambert Well NONE of the Gospels were written by those in whose names they appear. Books of both the Old and New Testament have been archaeologically examined and can be shown to have been written by many authors over (in some examples of the OT) centuries. I'd call that forgery. The Dead Sea Scrolls show heaps of variations within some OT books (Exodus being one example). I haven't read the Ehrman book you mentioned but you can refute it? Paul was a complete Roman apologist who the Jews (including Jesus' brother) wanted to kill because of the way he was re-interpreting Jesus' teachings. And he, Paul, was not a contemporary of Jesus either. The Bible: Forged, Edited and Re-Written to suit the politics of the day.
Darryl Lambert And if Jesus really does love me, why is he content to see me burn for eternity because I don't love him back? A religion of love? Some definition of love you have there.
Steve Smith, you call that forgery? Forgeries are forged from something original. Those are also known as copies. And what exactly were the politics of the day Steve? The new Testament went against politics of the day! You know like, Hebrew law, Roman law etc. The NT does not SUIT any political or law of the time. Yet, it encourages people to also follow the law like paying taxes and so on. So yeah, it is a religion of love no matter what! Most of the Dead Sea Scrolls are shockingly similar to today's version of the old testament. So I guess forgeries automatically mean not true or over exaggerated. That must be your point? Then you say "if Jesus really does love me, why is he content to see me burn for eternity because I don't love him back?" He's not content with that Steve. You were given free will to deny Him. If your denying Him then don't Whine about it and Hell will await you. If you don't believe then I guess it's eternal blackness for you so whatever.
Darryl Lambert, You would have thought at least one roman would have put pen to paper when the day turned to night and 500 zombies rose up out of their graves and went home after the death of Jesus. The fact of the matter is the so called eyewitnesses rejected the Jesus story on mass, which would lead us to believe that it it is in fact just that; a story.
Darryl Lambert, Rubbish. God makes the rules. If he wanted to stop my fall into a lake of fire for simply no believing, he could. If the devil is such a bad guy, why doesn't god just get rid of him? Why is belief rewarded over good deeds? Why did god send his son to be a blood sacrifice to act as a loophole for a rule that he made in the first place? The whole this is ridiculous.
Darryl Lambert, Steve is right. If god refuses to intervene when we burn, then that is not a dictionary definition of love. There is no way I would sit back and listen to my children scream in pain for simply rejecting me, especially if i had been invisible to them their entire lives.
Darryl Lambert, Contemporary means at the same time, so the Koran is not contemporary. Moreover, the gospels were written far away, in a different language, many decades after the alleged events by non eyewitnesses. Mark was written first and the next 3 were written with Mark in hand; a bronze age copy and paste hatchet job if you like. All this at a time when Christianity was vying for the hearts and minds of followers over Roman paganism. Tell me one error in my explanation here. And if you can't, tell me why the gospels are worth believing?
Tim Gale, your issue is purely emotionally and intellectually driven and worn out. Emotionally, you do not believe in God because of the issue of Evil. Intellectually, an omnipotent, and loving God is illogical to you, therefore impossible. You look at everything in terms of fair or unfair. It's unfair that you have to suffer eternal damnation for such a short period of time on Earth for something you perceive to be so minuscule . I understand where your coming from and it's a tough pill to swallow, but this is how it goes. Evil and damnation are absolutely necessary in order for us to find God in the broken world we live in(yes, thanks to Adam and Eve). In the Bible it says God does not intervene to stop human evil, instead he gives us over to the sin we have freely chosen. As humans we have a the moral responsibility before God to turn away from evil. by choosing evil, we damn ourselves…..because we chose to, get it? Also, it was 500 witnesses not 500 raised and the centurion and Roman soldiers witnessed the the tombs open when bodies of the saints fell out after the earthquake mentioned after Jesus' death. It was symbolic and not like the Lazarus resurrection. No one will refute that. I am glad you got Mark as written first. Most Apologists like myself know that. Luke was written by Luke, Mark was written by John Luke, nephew of Barnabas, Matthew was written by Q, yes Q. Oh, and John son of Zebedee wrote John. Where does this vying for the hearts and minds of Roman pagan practitioners come into play? That is complete bunk. The Martyrdom of Paul, Paul's conversion, and the martyrdom of many more should be proof of faith and not a power grab. This is not a fairytale my friend. That's all I have time for for now. Your days on earth are numbered as are mine. God bless you, and may you find Him!
*pardon my typos*
Tim Gale, God will be getting rid of Satan. It's not for us to worry about when. Carry on smartly!
Darryl Lambert, Thanks for your reply. There was no biblical Adam and Eve. We know this. It's not up for discussion. We have cave paintings older than 6,000 years for crying out loud. I don't believe in the biblical god because there is absolutely no reason to. I just listed a fraction of my reasons above. An invisible, inaudible, intangible god fits the definition of not being there.
Darryl Lambert, Thanks for your reply. There was no biblical Adam and Eve. We know this. It's not up for discussion. We have cave paintings older than 6,000 years for crying out loud. I don't believe in the biblical god because there is absolutely no reason to. I just listed a fraction of my reasons above. An invisible, inaudible, intangible god fits the definition of not being there.
Tim Gale, you may have me pegged as a "Young Earther", in which I am not. "Young Earthers" are in fact weirdos that believe the Earth in 6,000 years old and dinosaurs are a conspiracy theory. Seriously, many of them believe this. Genesis says "[I}n the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. NOW the earth WAS formless and empty". Look my friend, even the original Tanakh Jewish version of the script literally says Earth was re created. RE CREATED! Reading on one can read into a destroyed Earth seeing light again, but I'll leave that to you. Adam and Eve why not, everything has a beginning? There are over 20,000 world wide flood stories as well. From Native Americans, Hawaiians, to The Epic of Gilgamesh and some, I believe, Scandinavian legends. Cave paintings, well, every language and expression starts somewhere. I'm sure your scribblings as a tot looked worse than cave drawings. I know mine were. If God seems unfair to some, then if they ever really got to know Him, they would also call him…..very strange…We may never know Gods true plan but do we really need to worry about it? We as humans must work on loving one another first before we even need to worry about searching say, the cosmos for God or other life. The Bible is the instruction book if read properly!
Darryl Lambert, There lies the problem: My fellow atheists and I have a very simple message; we don't believe. Our philosophy on this issue never changes. That said, there are as many versions of Christianity as there are believers. Moreover, I too believe that the creation stories are allegories that were never intended to be taken literally. It's good to share that belief with you. Finally, if the bible was an instruction manual written by men who were inspired by god, why is it so hard to interpret? Why is god's message so vague and so easily interpreted to mean just about anything? For me that question is easily answered, in that I see no reason to believe the bible is the inspired word of god, whereas you have something to reconcile.
Tim Gale. Well then, I leave you with this. As myself an American, I disagree with what you say but, I will fight to the death for your right to say it! I enjoyed this conversation!
Darryl Lambert Darryl, there was no New Testament for 300 or so years. You couldn't live in say 150 AD and look at a Bible — the book did not exist. Certain parts of it did but it took until the time of Constantine and Eusibius before the cannon (sp?) was put together. They did not include all the religious books out there that early Christians were using. Some were thrown out because they were deemed too radical for the politics at the time. So the politics of the day I mentioned were that of Constantine who wanted a dominant religion essentially based on the power of the Church. Eusibius helped him do it. Ever notice why Rome is almost seen as the good guy in the Bible when in reality first century Palestine was a hot bed of political agitation and violent suppression? All carefully re-written and "edited" (read forged) from around then. Where do we first meet Josephus' writings? Oh, in Eusibius' time. Funny that. I could go on and on but it is clear you don't want to hear facts. And any that I do give you will fall on deaf ears. So keep believing your distorted view of history and reality. The Bible may have a message but it is not a literal or a historical work. Metaphor and myth is what it really is.
Darryl Lambert Darryl, there was no New Testament for 300 or so years. You couldn't live in say 150 AD and look at a Bible — the book did not exist. Certain parts of it did but it took until the time of Constantine and Eusibius before the cannon (sp?) was put together. They did not include all the religious books out there that early Christians were using. Some were thrown out because they were deemed too radical for the politics at the time. So the politics of the day I mentioned were that of Constantine who wanted a dominant religion essentially based on the power of the Church. Eusibius helped him do it. Ever notice why Rome is almost seen as the good guy in the Bible when in reality first century Palestine was a hot bed of political agitation and violent suppression? All carefully re-written and "edited" (read forged) from around then. Where do we first meet Josephus' writings? Oh, in Eusibius' time. Funny that. I could go on and on but it is clear you don't want to hear facts. And any that I do give you will fall on deaf ears. So keep believing your distorted view of history and reality. The Bible may have a message but it is not a literal or a historical work. Metaphor and myth is what it really is.
Steve Smith. Lets say everything you just said was fact. Everything you just said was pure unadulterated fact. I'll buy all of it even! The fact still remains that the gospels go against every single one of the the tyrannical regimes throughout history that used them to their own advantage. I just said "Almost every regime has abused the GOSPEL and the Pauline Letters for power grab purposes". Over the millenniums NOTHING has changed in the GOSPELS or PAULINE LETTERS. AT ALL! Aside from linguistic mix ups not much has changed. The basic message is still there. Many have died at the hands of so called "Christian nations and Monarchies". All of them bastardize the message of the Bible, yet somehow the message has always remained the same, and never actually benefited the Tyrannical nations using them. I find the Bible to be so incredibly unblemished over the thousands of years! Gods hand is truly on those who READ it with an open heart. Steve, you are one heck of a scholar and a gentleman. Thank You!! I mean that, no sarcasm!
Steve Smith, I heard your facts and openly bought most of them "lock stock n barrel". The issue here for you to refute is how did the Bible stay almost exactly the same, aside from linguistic mix ups, from one and many tyrannical regime after another. Even better, why did those regimes all fail when their power grab was smacked down. England was all about "God save the Queen" and the King James Bible is very un bastardized. How did Jolly old England fair in the end? Not so good. You see Steve, they sucked at being a Holy country. America, my beautiful country with "In God We Trust" on our money also severly sucks at being a nation of Biblical principles, yet we prance around like children pretending to be self righteous police of the world. Hopefully we can turn things around here. In short, every nation that has hid behind the Bible and used it for a launch pad has fell to its knees! For some reason the Bible hasn't changed though…….so weird is it not?
Darryl Lambert Well not much changed as you say after they all got together to get their story straight–well sort of, the Bible is still full of inconsistencies but we can talk about those another time. I am not saying the teachings of Jesus do not have a powerful message, they do and the central message of love thy neighbor has inspired millions (Gandhi is just one example). The best description of love, in my opinion, is found in Corinthians. But my problem with Christianity is reconciling those words with bizarre ideas of sin and eternal damnation. Take all that crap away and the message is even stronger. There was/is a huge difference between the message of the NT and that of the Old. If you read the words of Jesus, his message is very Buddhist in nature. Some even believe Jesus was Buddhist ("Heretic! Burn him at the stake!" I hear people cry) and there is a tomb in Srinagar, Kashmir supposedly containing his body. As I said, if you want to use the Bible to guide you in your life, fine but please don't take it historically or literally. Read it for is message (and I totally agree with you re mis-use of the message in the past) and we might all benefit. But don't tell me I'm going to burn in Hell forever because I love thy neighbor. It doesn't make sense. It must be late where you are. Take care.
Darryl Lambert, The gospels have been greatly altered through pious fraud and error for much of their existence. As a professional translator myself, the standards of translation from the Greek, or Hebrew, to what we have today do not meet the communicative/semantic equilibrium required for a sound and honest target text. If I produced a work of that quality today, I would be sued.
Truly, a fun and insightful debate here. Thank you gentleman.
Tim Gale Ahhh YES!!! But the symbolism in the Bible is unfailingly concrete and one cannot go wrong by interpreting the Bible through it's symbols despite the difficulties of language translation. But God does not give insight into His Precious pearls to those who do not appreciate them. Peace my friend.
Paula Hall, After 30 years of fervently praying for a revelation, I gave up waiting for those pearls.
Paula Hall But if the symbolism is affected by the translation, then how are you to interpret it? An example, the classic quote from Mathew: "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." I remember my minister pointing out that this was a bad case of translation, the word camel should have been rope. Then the symbolism would be fine but now we have had countless interpretations of camels and needles which are totally pointless.
Paula did you know that it was forbidden for the average person to read a Bible until about 400 or so years ago? The Church did not want the word to get out in case it became mis-interpreted or mis-construed.
Tim Gale Dear Tim; How about '"He came to set the captive free, that the blind may see, and that the dumb may hear, to heal the broken- hearted, and to preach the Good News to the poor'.
The realization of these goals is the highest achievement ever conceived in all of history. They are from Love. Love is doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. Serving them as a means of serving our God. Love is the whole of the revelation.
Steve Smith
The word, water, is a classic case of symbolism in the Bible. The meaning is always consistent even if the surrounding words are affected by various translations. And you see all of the patriarchs finding their wives at wells (of water). The Samaritan woman by the well; meaning that Jesus was now espousing the Gentiles instead of just the Jews. Even Hagar, the mother of the Muslims was espoused by God when He showed her a spring of water to keep her son from death. That spot is the Muslim Holy spot of Mecca.
Did you know, that for instance; many Communist infiltrators came into the Christian religion to discredit it? When I hear a minister making a statement about a bad translation rather than building faith this is the very first thing that pops into my mind.
Yes, as an avid student of Biblical history, I did know of the prohibition/discouragement on reading the Bible. But it was finally the common man being able to read the sacred texts that gave birth to the wonderful freedoms we so enjoy in America and why the persecuted of the whole world flee to her protection. Our forefathers copied what they learned in the Bible.
Paula Hall Thanks for your reply Paula. All what you say might be true but the central question remains: why does God deal in symbolism which is open to numerous interpretations by us fallible humans? Why does he not make his message clear? Why do Christians have to jump through hoops in order to "prove" their points when if God is so great, surely he can make his message easily understandable to all? I'm not being dis-respectful, I find it bizarre that's all. Anyway, it's been nice chatting to you. It's nice to hear some reasoned debate rather than the bile-trading which often occurs on these boards. Stay safe. (PS. My minister was not a commie LOL!)
Paula Hall, Yes, they are very admirable acts but there is zero evidence that they actually happened, and a mountain of evidence that they did not. It's not about what is possible but about what is probably. Is it more probable that a gospel writer, lied exacerbated or was mistaken or that a Jewish holy man was magic? Why do you instantaneously reject the supernatural claims of other religions but readily accept the beliefs that you parents taught you or are predominantly believed within the cultures where you were born and grew up?
Tim Gale
RE: Yes, they are very admirable acts but there is zero evidence that they actually happened, and a mountain of evidence that they did not.
I am not talking about what happened back then Tim. I am talking about what is happening today. Right here and now. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The Good News is that we (Christians) are delivered from the curse of poverty and ill health for all time.
RE: Why do you instantaneously reject the supernatural claims of other religions but readily accept the beliefs that you parents taught you or are predominantly believed within the cultures where you were born and grew up?
I have studied the Bible intently and have additionally read it through about 25 times. This is hardly just a matter of only accepting the beliefs which my parents taught to me. I have researched deeply any apparent contradictions or statements that appeared to be false or hard to understand and they have all reconciled themselves. Those who readily criticize the Bible, have they made as sincere an effort? Or is their criticism due to an attraction to popular sins of the day?
Paula Hall, How do you reconcile all the contradictions in the bible, such are the two distinct deaths of Judas? You say you have researched deeply. Have you read the Vedas? Moreover, what is happening now that you talk about with such fervor?
Steve Smith RE: Why does God deal in symbolism which is open to numerous interpretations by us fallible humans? Why does he not make his message clear? Why do Christians have to jump through hoops in order to "prove" their points when if God is so great, surely he can make his message easily understandable to all?
This is a whole different direction than one the conversation begun on. The whole reason of pointing a person to the use of symbolism was to overcome any difficulties that people were having with translation issues. The use of symbolism in our discussion was brought in to make the Bible easier to understand for serious students. It is not necessary in order to understand the Bible’s message at all. The message is clear and can be summed up basically ‘in doing unto others as you would have them do unto you’. That is the law of love. This law is not hard to understand but is hated by those who would jump in bed with anything that moves, those addicted to whatever; drugs, alcohol, pornography. By those who profit from sex-slaves. To those people God said, that ‘they have ears to hear and eyes to see but, they cannot understand His Word.’ This is why people have such a hard time understanding the simple law of love because they are attached to and love things that hurt themselves and others. Several years ago I made friend with a blazing liberal who hated Christians. As you can tell I am deeply conservative in my views. Jeff became one of my very best friends and actually made it possible for my business to prosper many times over. He is a pure joy. We get along simply because of one thing: “We both sincerely agree on doing unto others as we would have them do unto us” even though we don’t always agree on the application of exactly how that will be. But we’ve found we really agree more often than not. Peace to you my friend.
Tim Gale RE: Moreover, what is happening now that you talk about with such fervor?
If you read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 28, you will understand the concept of the blessing and the curse. The curse is what happened to mankind unless they obeyed the Ten Commandments. When Jesus Christ came, He became a curse for us cancelling out the curse of Deuteronomy 28. That curse included poverty and sickness. Read it for yourself. Also, if you’ll recall, the first punishment/or curse on Adam is that he would till the land and it would produce thorns and thistles. For a farmer (which Adam was) to produce thorns and thistles is tantamount to poverty. But when Jesus died he cancelled out this poverty. This is why the emphasis is on Grace and not works per se.
Another practical line of reasoning is when a person from their youth up lives a good life, gets married, stays married, supports their children, putting them through higher education. He/she is doing unto others (his own family) what he would have others do unto him/her. But the rewards are very real. Poverty is eradicated in this lifestyle. And also many of the diseases caused by fast living, addictions etc. You can see from this that the Word of God is alive and practical for us today.
Paula Hall That's IS the point Paula. My view on Christianity is simply that message along with Love thy Neighbor and Turn the other cheek. It's a great message and one not confined to Christianity. Indeed, I found it came naturally after a bit of life's experience. Aldous Huxley, who was one of the top researchers into comparative religion, was asked on his deathbed after a life time of research into religions: "What is the message you have gained from all your work?" He replied: "Be nice to other people."
My problems with Christianity per se, are the concepts of sin and eternal damnation which I find not to fit in with this message. I have no problems with Jesus (although I don't believe he did everything they say he did) but the god of the Old Testament seems small and cruel by comparison (and the concept of the trinity is utterly bizarre and insane). Historically, the Church has had a lot of problems reconciling the OT with the New and has had to jump through a lot of hoops to do so. Anyway, have a good day or whatever time it is where you are.
Paula Hall, We're not on the same page Paula. You need to demonstrate that your bible is true and correct before asserting that its contents hold any weight. I believe the bible is the word god because it says so in the bible is a circular argument and completely worthless.
Tim Gale Well Tim it’s quite easy to see that when anyone obeys its precepts that their life is improved in every measurement factor. That in itself proves the Bible’s validity. LOL
Steve Smith RE: My problems with Christianity per se, are the concepts of sin and eternal damnation which I find not to fit in with this message
Dear Steve, Pose that same idea to a woman/or child being held in bondage to sex slavery. Today sex-slavery is one of the biggest money makers for organized crime surpassing gambling, and illegal weapons. There is more slavery today than at any other time in human history. I ask you what is the solution to this? Or what is ‘doing unto others as we would have them do unto us’ in this situation? Do tyrants ever abdicate their own power? A resounding NO!!! Is it not a sin to torture these innocent victims? They prize the raping of the virgin exactly as is done in satanic ritual masses. What should happen to the perpetrators of such crimes that escape the radar of decent law abiding people and the law enforcement efforts? Jesus sees and hates this. He has freely died to prevent this kind of abuse and has given us the commission to preach the Good News so all will learn to treat others well. What should happen to those like these men who refuse to listen? LOL
Paula Hall, Paula, it’s quite easy to see that when anyone obeys its precepts that their life is improved in every measurement factor. That in itself proves the Torah's validity.
Darryl Lambert: "The fact still remains that the gospels go against every single one of the the tyrannical regimes throughout history that used them to their own advantage."
…while promoting the most tyrannical dictatorship one could possibly imagine. It rules without consent, keeps track of your every thought and action, punishes you for your thoughts, punishes you disproportionately with eternal torture for non-belief, for questioning its authority, and for other minor infractions, and the list goes on.
It goes against everything we believe in as Americans. And it's definitely not something worthy of worship.
If you have to threaten people (often children) with eternal torture for not believing your idea, then your idea is weak, pathetic, and not worthy of consideration.
Tim Gale The Torah and the Bible are both based on the Ten Commandments which would explain the similarity in results when followed. The Ten Commandments are the highest pinnacle of beauty in human living.
Paula Hall, Yes, but according to your holy book Jews are going to hell. As Jesus says the only way to the father is through me by consensus. The 10 commandments are early man's first attempt at a moral law and a terrible first draft. Thank goodness for a few hundred years of secular thinking where what is good or bad has been carefully studied, discussed and accepted. We are more moral today despite what Christianity teaches, not because of it.
idols are football, baseball, video games, basketball, and any other things that keep you from spending time in the presence of our Savior Jesus Christ, even money can be a idol.
Amen Bro.
idols are football, baseball, video games, basketball, and any other things that keep you from spending time in the presence of our Savior Jesus Christ, even money can be a idol.
The Freedom from Religion crowd are a bunch of loons who either can't read or have no reading comprehension. Its FREEDOM OF RELIGION in the first amendment.
Yes, but remember that "Religion has a universal context". It does not say "freedom of the Christian religion"
Dennis Fowler I believe the Christian religion was implied in those days.
Dennis Fowler I believe the Christian religion was implied in those days.
Dennis Fowler – Here we go with someone trying to breakdown a word to mean what they want it to mean. give it up man, the only fool here is you.
Thomas Jefferson was not a loon. Thank you. And he warned of having a state sponsored relegion. And I know that the evangelicals are a dangerous lot. They've got Bennie Hinn and Pat Robertson praying for WWIII. Which is sick and Anti-Christ.
I see. So, since it's FREEDOM OF RELIGION and not FREEDOM FROM RELIGION and you guys like to pretend that being atheist is a religion, then can I put a big sign on this your Jesus dolly that proclaims your mythology to be nothing but mythology?
Dennis, do your research: the writings of the vast majority of our founding fathers makes it clear that the US was founded as a Christian nation (starting with the Pilgrims). Even Thomas Jefferson, so often quoted by atheists, penned the words ".. are endowed by their Creator …"
George Duane :
Just quoting one of our founding fathers. As others are so prone to do. This comes down to philosophy. I would never attempt to force feed you my beliefs.
George Duane :
Just quoting one of our founding fathers. As others are so prone to do. This comes down to philosophy. I would never attempt to force feed you my beliefs.
Mark Laperle
Can you prove that? Or is there reasoable doubt?
George Duane :
Wow, third grade name calling. I wonder if that would be considered Christ Like?…
Mike Carter :
Christians aren't the only individulas to commonly use the word "Creator"…Next..
Dennis Fowler, why are you trolling man?!
Annie Laurie Gaylor said. “This diminishes the civil and political standing of nonreligious and non-Christian Americans, and shows flagrant governmental preference for religion and Christianity.” WELL SAID, AND RIGHTLY SO! One of the founding principles of our country WAS and IS freedom OF religion NOT freedom FROM religion!
Annie Laurie Gaylor said. “This diminishes the civil and political standing of nonreligious and non-Christian Americans, and shows flagrant governmental preference for religion and Christianity.” WELL SAID, AND RIGHTLY SO! One of the founding principles of our country WAS and IS freedom OF religion NOT freedom FROM religion!
Where do these hateful ugly people come from? Who raised them to be so angry?
These hateful people who oppose all forms of Christianity and any mention of God-desire to outlaw God so that the fundamental rights of Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can be controlled by the Government rather ordained to every individual by God. According to the the Declaration of Independence
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
All people in the USA have the God given rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. If God does not exist that you have no rights and all your rights are given to you or taken from you by the Government, which is precisely why atheists, socialists, liberals and communists are so angry at any display of Christianity or any public mention of God. Atheists, socialists, liberals and communists all have the same goal of transforming the USA into a completely secularist nation where Christianity is a crime, so that your rights are given or taken away at the whim of the government.
Godless liberals
George Duane yeah and they've declared a war on us.
George Duane and Puala Hall I know many liberals and none of them are Godless. In fact they are very nice people who "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" as they'd like to be treated. But I must say we are all tired of the nasty "Christians" proclaiming other wise about people they don't know and haven't met. You sound just like the obnoxious fat ass Rush Limbaugh, the GOP's chief promoter of hate.
Where do these hateful ugly people come from? Who raised them to be so angry?
To those involved with Freedom From Religion. Nobody is forcing any religion upon you. If you choose not to believe we pray for you. The monuments we erect simply honor God and those that gave all so you could have the freedom to not believe and to complain about those of us who do.
Praise be to God! Another victory in the name of Christ. You must continue to fight the good fight of faith, for now is the time to stand.
The FFRF should at least show some respect for the veterans who placed the statue and why.
I've skied by the Jesus statue on Whitefish (Big) Mountain – if you weren't looking for it, you'd ski right past it! I think it's nice and the locals refer to stopping at the memorial on their first run as "Sunday Mass" – thanks for keeping the statue!
What are all these non-christians getting so hot about? Do you remember reading about the muslim girl who wants the uniform of the US ARMY changed so she can wear her headscarf? No fits about that from the muslilm brotherhood. BUT I have a definite problem with that. All other faiths cannot wear anything that takes away from the uniform. All crosses, etc. have to be hidden and not overtly shown. So why let some camel jockey show their religion wearing the uniform of our country? There is a reason it's called "uniform" – because they are all the same no matter what religion you profess – or don't.
What are all these non-christians getting so hot about? Do you remember reading about the muslim girl who wants the uniform of the US ARMY changed so she can wear her headscarf? No fits about that from the muslilm brotherhood. BUT I have a definite problem with that. All other faiths cannot wear anything that takes away from the uniform. All crosses, etc. have to be hidden and not overtly shown. So why let some camel jockey show their religion wearing the uniform of our country? There is a reason it's called "uniform" – because they are all the same no matter what religion you profess – or don't.
Atheists would have complained about that for sure. Maybe it wasn't on the Fox boards. I missed it and I would have complained.
The tyranny of the masses wins again.
No, The Constitution wins again.
No, The Constitution wins again.
Mark Laperle there is nothing constitutional about the government showing favoritism to your mythology.
Al Wells just because you think it is mythology doesn't make it so…just your opinion in a sea of opinions. By the way the wording is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" not freedom FROM religion. You can choose to believe how you want no one and especially not this monument to the 10th Mountain Division is stopping you. A private group put the monument there and no one is demanding you or anyone else to stop there and do anything. It is your choice to stop or not. Other wise when you just spout out mythology and your constitutional right to be free from religion…I have to assume you are trolling to rile people up…troll away…your opinion has no effect on my day to day life and I just am amazed you choose to live a hate filled life…how absolutley unsatisfying.
Al Wells the constitution was given to keep government out of religion.
The tyranny of the masses wins again.
When I asked a individual how Hitler could K! LL 6.5 million jew's he said it was done very slowly and the avg. person had no idea until the end. Please step back a moment and see what has happen in just 3 1/2 year with the lost of either Freedom/or the take over of Goverment. again what is the different's!
When I asked a individual how Hitler could K! LL 6.5 million jew's he said it was done very slowly and the avg. person had no idea until the end. Please step back a moment and see what has happen in just 3 1/2 year with the lost of either Freedom/or the take over of Goverment. again what is the different's!
Hitler was a Catholic, but I agree, watch out for them too.
George Washington on the Bible and Government.
It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.
George Washington on the Bible and Government.
It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.
George Washington also grew and smoked pot.
Bob Bridges who would ever believe that? and how could you ever prove it? the same way evolution is proven i suppose.
Paula Hall its American history. A well documented fact. Washington wrote about it. Is that proof enough for you? So an American history professor would beleive that for starters. And no its not the same way evolution is proven, I'm a creationist anyway.
Paula Hall Evolution has been proven time and time again in the last 150 years. Recent DNA sequencing has proved it to a higher degree than ever before. If you haven't read a recent scientific overview of it, you are speaking from ignorance. You'll come out with ignorant statements/questions such as "we came from monkeys or rocks????" There was a recent gallop pole that proved the more you go to church, the less likely you are to believe it. If you want to keep your head in the sand about science, that's up to you. But don't comment on something you don't know. Doesn't Timothy I tell women to keep quiet?
You can speak reason to evangelicals. Their man in the sky is on their side only. And the rest of us have got it all wrong.
You can't speak reason to evangelicals. Their man in the sky is on their side only. And the rest of us have got it all wrong. To hell with the constitiution…..
Again, not really true there Bob. I am an "Evangelical" and please feel free to speak to me. I'll be glad to listen to your view on the subject. An God is not my God only. He has offered salvation to one and all. I am all for the constitution. As a matter of fact I am a four corners guy.
Rob Vanderford who has offered salvation? God or Jesus, the son of God?
Rob Vanderford Rob could you explain the Trinity to me. I'm not trolling but being sincere. I must be getting something wrong. Every time I say Jesus is God on these boards, everybody attacks me saying "you know nothing of Jesus" if that's your interpretation" and they leave it at that. I'm still confused. I thought Jesus=God=Holy Ghost. Where am I wrong?
Steve Smith when Jesus was on the cross and prayed "Father forgive them for they know not whay they do," he was actually praying to himself since he is also God. Now doesn't that make sense?
Bob Bridges I am reminded of Eric Idle's (Monty Python) description of the Trinity:
"God is His son and his son is God but his son moonlights as a Holy Ghost, a Holy Spirit and a dove and they all send each other even though they are all one and the same thing….God is like a shamrock: small, green and split three ways."
2012 is the year the US puts God back into its pledge
The phrase “separation of church and state” comes especially from the 1500s, and was a product of the Reformation in Europe.
In the fourth century A.D., the government took control of the church and began to establish specific doctrinal tenets by law, making the church an official organ of government and using coercion and brutal penalties against those who did not submit to government-established theology. That abhorrent practice predominated until some religious leaders began to oppose it in the 1300s. Eventually, over a span of two-and-a-half centuries, numerous individuals in different nations across Europe raised their voice against the government union of church and state. After all, God Himself had separated the two institutions, placing Moses over civil affairs and Aaron over spiritual ones; and when King Uzziah tried to combine the two functions in 2 Chronicles 26, God Himself struck him down, thus reaffirming the institutional separation He had established. (Those European leaders and their followers who objected to many of the unBiblical operations of both the state and the state-established and state-run church became known as “Dissenters”.)
The first recorded usage of the separation phrase occurred during the reign of King Henry VIII of England. Henry had sought a divorce, but when the church rightly denied it, Henry established his own government-run church and awarded himself the divorce. The Parliament also passed laws decreeing who could and could not participate in the Lord’s Supper and other sacraments, even deciding who could and could not preach the Gospel. The Rev. Richard Hooker objected, and is credited with being the first to use the separation phrase, demanding that the government stay out of what was rightly the church’s jurisdiction.
Since those who came to America afterwards were largely Dissenters and generally held the same view as their Dissenting leaders in Europe, the separation phrase was widely used in America for the next century-and-a-half, especially in objecting to British attempts to establish official theology or British-run churches in America.
The most frequently referenced American source for the contemporary usage of the separation phrase today is an 1802 letter written by President Thomas Jefferson to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, in which he assured them that because of “the wall of separation between church and state” the government would not interfere with or inhibit their religious practices or expressions, whether occurring in private or public. But in 1947, the Supreme Court reversed the traditional use of this phrase, for the first time allowing the government to interfere with and even prohibit religious practices and expressions, especially when occurring in public – a complete reversal of the historic meaning of the phrase and its usage both by Jefferson and those in previous centuries. Consequently, the modern application of this phase bears nearly no resemblance to either its historical or Biblical origins.
Thank you for that excellent history lesson.
One for the good guys….
I think groups like the freedon from religion foundation fail to consider that America is still a predomintly Christian Nation. It is nice to see Jesus win one for a change.
When people quote the founding fathers on whether religion was/wasn't part of their understanding of government, be honest and find a quote where the same people say the direct opposite. Also, please remember that while Jefferson may have written some document in the beginning, it was altered many times by others involved in the process. Just because he wanted something in writing doesn't make it the intention of the rest of the founding fathers. If they had wanted his viewpoints to be in there, they would have left them in. As the government itself did not erect the monument, it is therefore no violation whatsoever. There is no "wall" between religion and all aspects of government. Would you take away military chaplains since it is quite impossible to have a chaplain of every faith at all times with our deployed units? As long as Congress in no way is supporting a particular branch of religion, then it should be left alone. And, if you are a real atheist, then why in the world would it bother you? Just my opinion.
All that may be so (at least it's your opinion) but if this gets as far as the Supreme Court, Jesus will be gone. The Supreme Court has ruled time and time again that one particular religion cannot be supreme against any of the others on government property. I know you will disagree with the Supreme Court and I know a lot of people will attack me personally for stating this, but it's a fact. Sorry.
Annie Laurie Gaylor- Leave my country and go to France where you do not have to worry about religion. I'm not intolerant yet you need to realize that all those men that died in the 10th Mountain Division were Christians fighting for the rights of everyone, not the inverse rights of a few. If the Governement comes to your house and tells you to carry a bible you have a constitutional complaint. If you don't like the statue don't look at it.
CDS 9th Infantry Division.
So I guess its ok if the American Muslims put a big statue of Allah on govt land.
Of course it is alright for the American Muslims to put a statue of Allah on government land, if it is put there to honor something other than Allah as the statue in this story states very clearly.
And if we we remove the Statue of Jesus and leave nothing aren't we endorsing an Atheistic religion? Where will it all stop?
And if we remove the statue of Jesus and leave nothing aren't we endorsing the Athiestic religion? Where will it all stop?
And if we remove the statue of Jesus and leave nothing aren't we endorsing the Athiestic religion? Where will it all stop?
No matter how grotesquely the intellectually-dishonest bible-beaters try to spin things, it is EGREGIOUSLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the government to erect (or allow) religious symbols on public land unless said symbol is meant to apply to a particular individual–e.g., an individual grave marker in a veterans' cemetery. It doesn't matter whether the display is part of (or termed) a war monument or anything else–IT'S STILL UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
It never ceases to amaze me….how the liberal elite wanna-bes (Moss G. for instance) try soooo hard to sound intelligent while delivering a totally stupid point of view
Here is a news flash for you – you will never be Hillary, or Nancy, or Al. P. S. When I was in law school one of my professors always referred to California Law Schools as being filled with fruits and nuts 
just a funny expression – no harm intended 
It never ceases to amaze me….how the liberal elite wanna-bes (Moss G. for instance) try soooo hard to sound intelligent while delivering a totally stupid point of view
Here is a news flash for you – you will never be Hillary, or Nancy, or Al. P. S. When I was in law school one of my professors always referred to California Law Schools as being filled with fruits and nuts 
just a funny expression – no harm intended 
Rob Vanderford I'm willing to bet Rob, that if this does get as far as the Supreme Court, Jesus will be gone despite all your ideas.
Dinosaurs are not real. lol
Jesus was not real there has and never will be proof.
Believe in him or not, Doesn't "Freedom of Religion" give the people the right to believe in what they want with out fear of persecution? Enough is enough! I personally don't care what religious icon is there, fact is soldiers of many faiths have fought and died for our free country! If you are an atheist than pay no attention to Jesus. Or what ever it may be! Why have we become such a bunch of cry babies? Believe in what you want, but there should be no fear of doing it! LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!
I like Popcorn.
Sorry I don't want my tax dollars teaching the Bible, or supporting prayer in school. Out here there are soooo many bullshit charter school
I agree completely about no prayer in school, I have no problem at all with "a moment of silence" like I had, do with it as you may! I do have my own personal beliefs, and by no means am I any kind of "holy roller"! I don't believe in God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Quetzacotal, Zeus, or any other "God" character, but I do believe there is some kind of power we don't understand and everyone is entitled to believe and worship, OR NOT, in their own way. My issue is how som, including Atheists and Muslims among others are pushing their beliefs on the Christians and other religions and forcing suppression of them. To me "Freedom of Religion" encompasses all beliefs, INCLUDING non believers!!!! (Atheist do BELIEVE there is no "god", right?) Atheists are entitled to not believe just as much as any church going Catholic is entitled to believe, and Jews are entitled to believe, and Muslims can believe and so on!!!!! Interpret it as you like, but a belief in Atheism is a belief!!!!!! Embrace it, but don't ever force it upon any other!!!! Respect the fact that others are passionate about their beliefs also!!! That is my issue. I get angry over the "political correctness" that has evolved into a war against certain religions or beliefs. THIS IS AMERICA, LAND OF THE FREE!!!!!!!! LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY!!!!!
Atheists are in the military too…just pointing that out since you said "soldiers of many faiths have fought and died to free our country." So have atheists and other non-religious.
Thank you Kelly you are SO right! Got a little excited typing that and didn't think of it!!!!! I thank EACH and EVERY ONE of our SOLDIERS PAST and PRESENT for keeping us free and safe!!!!!!!!
If we have such an issue with god and the seperation of church and state, especially on our monuments on public property then explain why there are so many christian leanings on our money, the pledge of allegiance, and all other facets of public life? and why then are all of our politicians devout followers of whatever faith they follow. Enough is Enough, allow the veterans who believe in their beliefs to post whatever monuments and memorials they feel they deserve. They like myself and the current defenders of our lifestyle have given you the right to choose how you feel, at a cost that only our loved ones feel and understand. If you don't want that right then you are also absolutely free to go to what ever country that you choose to, and please…do so.
Here’s some facts on the Pledge of Allegiance:
- Originally composed by Christian socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892
- Formally adopted by Congress in 1942
- Bellamy published the original pledge as part of the celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the Americas; it was an attempt to instill American nationalism by selling flags to public schools and magazines to students
- Original pledge is as follows: “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” The pledge was intended to be “quick and to the point.” Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist he intended for it to use the words “equality and fraternity” but didn’t because state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and blacks.
- Originally the swearing of the pledge was accompanied by a salute: “An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up.” But since that was too close to the Nazi salute during the 40s, FDR changed it to the “hand over heart” gesture.
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In God we trust on money:
- Act approving the motto to be put on coins in the 1860s. Was not until after the Pledge was changed in 1954 that it was put on all currency. However, prior to 1954 it was not “required” to put the motto on the currency.
- However Teddy Roosevelt had issue with placing the motto on coinage because he considered it sacrilegious to put the name of god on money
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Now – that brings up an interesting point. Wouldn’t it be considered idolatry by putting god on currency? I mean doesn’t that in a way make the money an idol? Just a thought.
Bill Dowda: "…then explain why there are so many christian leanings on our money, the pledge of allegiance, and all other facets of public life? and why then are all of our politicians devout followers of whatever faith they follow."
Because politicians use religion as a tool to control people, to help them achieve their political objectives, and to maintain their power and authority. It's no mystery why they do it. And it really is quite shameful. The electorate slobbers all over this BS and then asks for seconds.
I think they should leave it there since it's a memorial – but I'm tired of reading all these comments from so-called "Christians" who use vile, hateful words and attack people. If you don't have a good argument or a way to make an intelligence conversation without name-calling, then don't bother. It makes you look ignorant.
Todd Starnes: Anyone who would pick a close-minded and twisted person such as Steve to be "Top Commentator" must believe in his way of thinking. I feel sorry for the woman who marries you Steve. Women are just as good at spreading the Word as any man and even better so in some cases. You continue to tell your wife to be silent, but don't preach to me. Good luck Mr. Starnes. I will no longer follow a person that supports such talk.
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