Dec 5, 2011
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The Supreme Court has rejected an evangelical church’s plea to overturn New York City’s ban on renting public schools for religious worship services. That means the city now has a green light to begin evicting congregations who pay rent to use public school buildings for church services.
“The Department was quite properly concerned about having any school in this diverse city identified with one particular religious belief or practice,” said Jane Gordon, senior counsel for the New York City Law Dept. “”The Court of Appeals correctly upheld the Department of Education’s policy not to allow the City’s public schools to be used as houses of worship. This case has been litigated for 16 years, and we’re gratified that the U.S. Supreme Court has decided not to hear it. We view this as a victory for the City’s school children and their families.”
The Supreme Court’s decision not to hear the case leaves in place a federal appeals court ruling that upheld the city’s policy.
The court case involved the Bronx Household of Faith – a church that paid weekly rent to hold worship services at a public school since 2002. The church, along with five dozen other congregations, was allowed to continue worshipping at public schools pending the outcome of the lawsuit.
It’s a sad day for religious liberty,” said Jordan Lorence, the church’s attorney and senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund. “Churches and religious other groups should be allowed to meet in public buildings on the same terms as other community groups and they’re being denied that in New York City.”
Churches will have to vacate public schools on Feb. 12, 2012.
“What’s odd about this is that of the top 50 school districts in the nation, New York City is the only school district that has a policy banning worship services,” he told Fox News & Commentary. “It does not show respect for religious liberty.”
The immediate impact means dozens of Christian churches will have to find a new place to hold services.
“A lot of churches are going to be homeless,” said George Russ, executive director of the New York Metropolitan Baptist Association. He said about seven of the 220 Southern Baptist churches in the city will be impacted by the decision.
Russ said churches will be scrambling to rent hotel space, banquet halls and movie theatres.
“It’s going to be a lot more money,” he said.
“The odd thing is these guys have blessed the schools they’ve been in,” Russ said. “They all have good relationships with the schools they’ve been in. They’ve purchased furniture for the teacher’s lounge they’ve given video equipment to the schools. They’ve done so many thank-you kinds of projects.”
The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals determined that allowing churches to use schools resulted in an “unintended bias in favor of Christian religions” – since most Christian churches worship on Sunday.
“Jews and Muslims generally cannot use school facilities for their services because the facilities are often unavailable on the days that their religions principally prescribe for services,” Judge Pierre Leval declared. “At least one request(ed) to hold Jewish services (in a school building used for Christian services on Sundays) was denied because the building was unavailable on Saturdays. This contributes to a perception of public schools as Christian churches, but not synagogues or mosques.”
Judge Leval also took issue with the evangelical church’s membership. “Bronx Household acknowledges that it excludes persons not baptized, as well as persons who have been excommunicated or who advocate the Islamic religion, from full participation in its services.” Leval wrote.
But it all boiled down to a key point, the judges decided. “In the end, we think the board could have reasonably concluded that what the public would see, were the Board not to exclude religious worship services, is public schools, which serve on Sundays as state-sponsored Christian churches,” Leval wrote.
With reporting from the Associated Press
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What the people in this country need now more than anything is to return to its Christian roots and to end the enroachment on our rights of freedom of speech, assembly, and of the press by the self-appointed aristocrats in government who have usurped the meaning of the Constitution to conform to their own ideological beliefs, using it for social engineering experiments.
Besides this, as broke as the city of New York is, doesn't it make sense to allow the use of unused space anywhere to generate rental income a prudent and practical matter?
This is a result, according to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, of the judicially-created doctrine of "separation of church and state." The phrase was coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter that assured a religious group, when he was President, that the new federal government would not adopt a religious denomination as the state religion. But Jefferson had no role whatsoever in developing the Establishment Clause that supposedly justifies the separation of church and state doctrine. He was on a five-year diplomatic mission in France when the Establishment Clause was developed and sent to the states for ratification. Moreover, merely giving religious groups (who pay rent) access to public buildings is not adopting a religious denomination as a state religion, any more than letting a "community group" pay rent to use the same facilities is an endorsement of their political views. The Second Circuit simply has an anti-religious, or anti-Christian, bias and is practicing what Jeferson called the "despotism of the oligarchy" of federal judges.
Of course, they must realize that this ruling goes for ALL religions. Muslim, atheist, etc.
If only the schools were as concerned about 'appearances' when it comes to poorly educating our children and promoting immoral behavior.
The first school books used were Holy Bibles.
The first school books used were Holy Bibles.
People forget the United States of America was founded as a Christian country. Then along came some liberal vermin in the 30s/40s and took something out of context that jefferson said which wasn't in the constitution and spread this idea of a "melting pot" and "religious freedom"… now look what we have thanks the left wing scum: radical islamists coming our country joining our military attacking us left right front and center.
People worshipping whatever they feel like a trash can an animal a cow even themselves in the mirror. Homosexuality running free and rampant throughout our media and in our homes its preached in public schools.
Abortion clinics convenience like fast food chains( what's next drive through abortions) and the liberals love this because its absolute "freedom".
ITS DISGUSTING AND ITS NOT WHAT THESE COLORS STAND FOR. What did our boys di at Valley Forge, Yorktown, Gettysburg, Antietam, Pearl Harbor, Normandy, Iwo Jima, Afghanistan, Baghdad and Fallujah….. for what….
- so Dumbo can sit at the throne of the white house and spread the works of Vladimir Lenin?
- So liberals can destory what's left our country?
-so homosexuality can soon take over heterosexual statistics in marriages?
-so deadbeat vermin are allowed to cause anarchy and chaos in the streets instead of getting a job?
- so our DA holder can prosecute a border agent for doing his job?
- so the same DA can funnel guns and money into mexico to drug cartels?
- so we remove holidays like christmas and take a christmas tree because a bunch of liberal vermin are getting offended but we promote ramadan in public schools?
- so islam can take over America!
- so we can grant amnesty to illegal aliens.
- so arabic can be the 3rd major language in this country (its happening already in some states…google press 3 for arabic).
I LOATHE YOU LIBERALS AND FIND YOU DISGUSTING THEN SOME HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY WE'RE RELIGIOUS AND FAITHFUL! NO, YOU'RE MENTALLY ILL THAT's WHAT YOU LIBERAL SCUM ARE!
Sad to say but more boys are going to have to die and more blood spilled for us to get the real America and real freedom we deserve. Freedom is not free.
oh, I forgot to mention how the liberals want to remove "In God we trust" on our currency, to remove "one nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance erase the song "God Bless America" altogether. They also want to remove the nativity scene @ the radio city christmas show because its "offensive".WELL LIBERALS OFFEND ME !!! CAN WE START REMOVING THEM!!!
Why are our boys fighting oversees? If I were I would feel unappreciated, the liberals regard the military as some evil unnecessary "war machine". After all the war in the middle east was unnecessary to them! we lost Vietnam because of deadbeat college hippies protesting while our boys were dying to stop the spread of communism… but the liberals love communism!!! so they protested and we lost moral support at home for the troops overseas and they came home defeated; yet they tactically won almost ever battle in Vietnam. So how could we lose? thank the liberal vermin scum.
Thanks to the liberals the FBI has become an extension of the piece of crap disgusting ACLU!!! An Islamic terrorist plans to bomb targets in NYC and the heroic NYPD goes at it alone because the FBI/DHS feels he isn't a credible threat and they don't want to be offensive. Yet those same agency's a few weeks later issue a national warning against deep frying turkeys for thanksgiving. WHAT KIND OF LUNACY IS THIS!!!! SAY THANK YOU TO THE LIBERALS VERMIN!!!!!!
Tee Hee Hadist Commander You're a communist nazi scumbag who wants to spread the works of marxism and adolf hitler in one big package. GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!! You and the liberal vermin are the thugs who are destroying this country. You want to force all the young children into neo hitler youth squads with your gestapo!!! you are probably anti- Semitic to. You and your kind hate everything that's civilized probably because you were a bastard child and your mother was a whore;that's why you think its ok to sleep around and be a homosexual and lil johnny can change his name to jenny dress like a girl and still have a penis. You're everything that's wrong with today, the media, the press, the schools EVERYTHING!!! You're the lowest form of fucking life I dare even call you human
My heart breeds hatred, terror and spite. My revenge will be your ruin .May your family die a thousand miserable deaths
Tee Hee Hadist Commander PS regardless of whether you think this country is a Christian one or not…. the points I listed you and the liberal filthy scum are allowing to happen and flurish!!!! DON'T EVEN TRY TO DENY IT!!!! and you think that stuff is ok to be allowed to occur in the great USA and you have the balls to say I want to destroy the USA!!! I WANT YOU AND YOUR KIND OUT!!!!… GO TO CANADA!!!!
Tee Hee Hadist Commander You're a communist nazi scumbag who wants to spread the works of marxism and adolf hitler in one big package. GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!!! You and the liberal vermin are the thugs who are destroying this country. You want to force all the young children into neo hitler youth squads with your gestapo!!! you are probably anti- Semitic to. You and your kind hate everything that's civilized probably because you were a bastard child and your mother was a whore;that's why you think its ok to sleep around and be a homosexual and lil johnny can change his name to jenny dress like a girl and still have a penis. You're everything that's wrong with today, the media, the press, the schools EVERYTHING!!! You're the lowest form of fucking life I dare even call you human
My heart breeds hatred, terror and spite. My revenge will be your ruin .May your family die a thousand miserable deaths
People forget the United States of America was founded as a Christian country. Then along came some liberal vermin in the 30s/40s and took something out of context that jefferson said which wasn't in the constitution and spread this idea of a "melting pot" and "religious freedom"… now look what we have thanks the left wing scum: radical islamists coming our country joining our military attacking us left right front and center.
People worshipping whatever they feel like a trash can an animal a cow even themselves in the mirror. Homosexuality running free and rampant throughout our media and in our homes its preached in public schools.
Abortion clinics convenience like fast food chains( what's next drive through abortions) and the liberals love this because its absolute "freedom".
ITS DISGUSTING AND ITS NOT WHAT THESE COLORS STAND FOR. What did our boys di at Valley Forge, Yorktown, Gettysburg, Antietam, Pearl Harbor, Normandy, Iwo Jima, Afghanistan, Baghdad and Fallujah….. for what….
- so Dumbo can sit at the throne of the white house and spread the works of Vladimir Lenin?
- So liberals can destory what's left our country?
-so homosexuality can soon take over heterosexual statistics in marriages?
-so deadbeat vermin are allowed to cause anarchy and chaos in the streets instead of getting a job?
- so our DA holder can prosecute a border agent for doing his job?
- so the same DA can funnel guns and money into mexico to drug cartels?
- so we remove holidays like christmas and take a christmas tree because a bunch of liberal vermin are getting offended but we promote ramadan in public schools?
- so islam can take over America!
- so we can grant amnesty to illegal aliens.
- so arabic can be the 3rd major language in this country (its happening already in some states…google press 3 for arabic).
I LOATHE YOU LIBERALS AND FIND YOU DISGUSTING THEN SOME HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY WE'RE RELIGIOUS AND FAITHFUL! NO, YOU'RE MENTALLY ILL THAT's WHAT YOU LIBERAL SCUM ARE!
Sad to say but more boys are going to have to die and more blood spilled for us to get the real America and real freedom we deserve. Freedom is not free.
I find it interesting that the NYC School District says they are doing this because of a concern on how this might appear to the community, but they provided no evidence of any actual cases where this happened and caused them harm. Keep in mind, they've been renting their facilities to churches for decades. Where is the evidence of any harm? Answer: There is none.
I find it interesting that the NYC School District says they are doing this because of a concern on how this might appear to the community, but they provided no evidence of any actual cases where this happened and caused them harm. Keep in mind, they've been renting their facilities to churches for decades. Where is the evidence of any harm? Answer: There is none.
Damn liberal judges…
There goes quite a bit of money for the schools.
What part of "…or prohibit the free exercise, thereof' does our own Supreme Court not understand?
We need to get rid of Lawyers, judges, and politicians.
THis is RIDICULOUS! If they are paying rent and abiding by the terms of the rental contract than they have the same right as any non-religious entitie! This is an outright attack on faith! RIDICULOUS! Thankful that Jesus fights these battles FOR US!
no suprise there
Meet in houses like any other Chinese church!
So much hate. The intolerance of someone who thinks differently than you is astounding. No one in these comments is forcing religion into the lives of anyone else.
The anti-religion folks here need to seek serious therapy and deal with their own demons. Try to live life and just be happy and tolerant. Don't tear others and their beliefs down just to try to give yourself some temporary satisfaction.
I am sad for you. I hope you find the help you need.
Very confusing article. The title says that NYC "can" ban churches. It doesn't read, NYC "Must" ban churches. However, based on the article and the reprint of the opinion of the judges, it reads as though all public schools will no longer be allowed to choose to rent space to religious groups on off days. I agree with the ruling in the sense that school boards should be able to choose how to rent their space. That is consistent with the title. However, it's unfortunate if it results in an outright nationwide ban on the practice. I can definitely see where there is an unintentional perception of bias, but every community is different. I don't see why other groups couldn't use some room in the school during the later part of evenings during the week. It's also not clear, who sued who and what the ramifications are, nationally. So before you all start jumping to conclusions, consider researching this and reading other articles. I can see why this poorly written article could lead to lots of pointless arguments.
Well, Christ predicted what is happening. Anyway, the school is just that,….a building. Every believer knows that they can take away the building but not what is in the soul. We will continue to serve our Lord regardless of a place to worship. The fact is followers can worship in any place they choose. If I choose to say a silent prayer, in a government building, NOBODY can prevent me from doing so. The only one's who know is me and GOD! So you liberals really do not understand the whole picture. Christ lives within the believer and not in a building.
All true believers. This isn't the end just the start! What NEEDS to happen is the Churches and Synagogues of N.Y need to unite and push new people for school board. Get them elected , push out these P.C. correct anti Christian/Jewish idiots and re-write the policy. But we need to stick together to beat the idiots who "think" they know what was meant by the separation of church and state. Unfortunately the S.Court needs a lesson on the original meaning of the phrase too. It only prohibits state religion period nothing more nothing less. Much like the 2nd amendment, the P.C. crowd with their opinion that the 2nd amend was meant for the gov't to own guns- so the 2nd Amend was put in there for the govt? They lie cheat and reason because they have no facts!
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/December/NYC-Ban-on-After-School-Worship-Services-Stands-/
Just as I thought. So the ruling simply allows schools to decide not to allow worship services. Seems fine to me. By the way, if you are looking for some entertainment, the comments at that other article are hilarious. In this case, the church is wrong. They think that they have a right to force schools to rent to them below market prices. They already get tax exemptions, so I see no problem with this ruling.
The court did what it should have done; send the issue back to the local court and school broad. For all who made comments here, it appears to me that most are conservative which has a basic principal of less Federal Government interference with more local control. But instead most are complaining about that local control. The NYC School broad is doing exactly that, local control. If the people in that district do not like the rule then they need to voice that opinion in two ways. First tell the local officials to change the rule or secondly go vote them out in November. Get the representation they want into both local and state positions.
For those who think I am just another liberal, no. I am a member of the local Tea Party, part of the first Tea Party protest in D.C., attendee of the 9/12 rally and an outspoken advocate to keep government of my life. Although our founding fathers encourage religious beliefs in the public square the Public Schools is not the forum as all are in enough trouble as it is; if a group wants to worship let them build a church.
Leval is an idiot- I do believe any religious could have rented the space and , who I s he to decide who can and cant attend any religious service. This is part of the one world religion idea the elites have in store for us.. This is def. the tail wagging the dog. Leval needs to be pressured to resign- Occupy Wall Street Style perhaps. A thousand people on his front lawn may help him to better serve the people.
So…I guess more tax dollars will go to replacing the lost rent that the school was collecting? Another brilliant move.
So…I guess more tax dollars will go to replacing the lost rent that the school was collecting? Another brilliant move.
its called seperation of church and state…..you send a child to school to learn….people goto and actual church to worship. Sorry but taxes pay for schools to be used for just that….as a SCHOOL. Not to rent it out to any tom, dick or harry who wants to pay rent. Sorry if you want to pay rent for a place to use for worship if you can't be bothered to use your church, then there are plenty of places around NYC that can be used for it.
That would be a good point if seperation of church and state was in the Constitution; alas… it's not. The Establishment Clause says the govt can't form a religion and can't prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's pretty clear. Any other interpretation is wrong. The Supreme Court doesn't always get it right (seperate but equal comes to mind).
a church that paid weekly rent to hold worship.
=========
NY could use this money!
We all seem to like to quote the constitution and founding fathers and what they inteded. At that time the school and church were often the same building. And as for the "separation of church and state", it was intended to keep the government out of religion not the twisted opposite it has become. It was intended to prevent a government from telling people where and when they can and cannot practice their religion. Remember, that is why they left England. Thus I don't get arguments like Keith's.
But again I do not understand the hate in their language. Why so hostile? Get some therapy, meditate, whatever, but seek some help.
We all seem to like to quote the constitution and founding fathers and what they inteded. At that time the school and church were often the same building. And as for the "separation of church and state", it was intended to keep the government out of religion not the twisted opposite it has become. It was intended to prevent a government from telling people where and when they can and cannot practice their religion. Remember, that is why they left England. Thus I don't get arguments like Keith's.
But again I do not understand the hate in their language. Why so hostile? Get some therapy, meditate, whatever, but seek some help.
This is a clear violation of 1st Amerndment rights. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" This decision clearly allows schools to prohibit the free exercise of religion. If other organizations can rent school building space, churches should have the same legal right.
This is a clear violation of 1st Amerndment rights. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" This decision clearly allows schools to prohibit the free exercise of religion. If other organizations can rent school building space, churches should have the same legal right.
We should ban the courts and government from school buildings as it would make the country not only more free but smarter.
This is what happens when common sense is thrown out the window. Who know what kind of protection the Lord has blessed these schools with because they were willing to provide these churches space to worship on Sundays when the school was not being used for any other purpose. People cry out why our society (including our schools) has become cesspools of depravity, violence and fear. It's because of the unrighteous policies of city officials and judges without the foresight or wisdom to recognize what's truly best for the people they are supposed to advocate. It is very sad when you consider the direction the city of New York is headed. The time for the people to rise up and take back control of the their city and communities can wait no longer. If they do not and permit the godless to continue to rule over them, they will have no one to blame for the consequences but themselves!
From what I understand the Muslims and Jews can't rent either… It's not like their singling out Christians…
If it was a Muslim group kicked out all you Fox New viewers would be cheering at the top of your lungs!
On what planet would you welcome to participate people who do not believe in your religion? Why would it be discriminatory to not allow muslims to participate in Christian services? do they allow Christians to participate in their services? Do they actually want to? this was pure liberalism looking for a hook on which to hang their desires.
Robert Nagel—thank you sir,i love common sense
“'In the end, we think the board could have reasonably concluded that what the public would see, were the Board not to exclude religious worship services, is public schools, which serve on Sundays as state-sponsored Christian churches,' Leval wrote."
REALLY? In order to assume this, the court must find that the public is ignorant of the truth that ALL organizations that use the schools pay rent and meet other requirements. To anyone who is well informed, the facts are clear: the presence of any community of faith in a school building IN NO WAY constitutes state sponsorship. If you believe it does, then you must believe the other Top 49 school districts in the country (who all allow churches/religious organizations to use them) are wrong.
These churches were not requesting special treatment. They were simply requesting equal treatment under the law.
Earth Changes are coming. They will grow as the days pass and there will be no place on earth that will go unaffected by them. They are coming because God is getting tired of looking down upon man's evil day in and day out. War without end, murder, thefts, lies, fraud, sodomy, adultery, cruelty to children, maltreatment of the poor, medical experiments on unsuspecting and poor, devil worship and witchcraft. These are all reasons why God allows and even directs these things to happen to men. So next time you see a disaster and ask God why, you will understand that there is a simple reason for it. Evil will not be allowed to continue for much longer.
I have read most of the comments on this story.
Background: Raised Christian, living as Atheist.
I do not agree with the argument of the school system not letting the churches use the school systems.
I believe the schools should be rented to whoever wants to rent it out at the appropriate times.
It is not the Christians fault that Muslims and Jewish faiths worship at different times than when the school is available.
A Christian church rents out my kid’s school on Sunday.
I would not have a problem if they rented it out to Muslims or any other faiths.
My kids do not go to school on Sunday, so what is the problem.
The Christian church never approaches my kids to join their faith and I doubt my kids even know that there are Christian services there on Sunday.
I do not understand how this is a problem.
We have renters on Sunday that reduce the tax burden on me. I am all for that.
My question would be if the Muslim or Jewish faiths were using the schools in New York would this issue even been brought to court.
I doubt it.
As for the argument that the Christian faith would get preferential treatment over the Moslem or Jewish faiths is bogus.
Have you not been reading or listening to the politically correct environment that we are in now?
Christian faith would lose the Sunday rental space in a heart beat. Very Sad!
Just a thought, the supreme court made it's first decision in 1791{after the constitution was written}In 1962{Engel vs. Vitale} the courts decision was based on a required prayer that was sanctioned by the state{not about prayer itself} Madalynn Ohair{atheist, member of the communist party}filed suit against Baltimore and then the court ruled God out of the schools. If as you uninformed scholars claim, the founding fathers wrote in favor of secularism, why did it takethe supreme court 150 years to reach that conclusion? The supreme court has taken the coward's way out by refusing to hear the case.By the way supreme court justices can be impeached.
Every muslim stutent should be banned from wearing a headscarf before they enter a school building. If they want religion out of school then muslims have to leave their religion at home too.
Maybe these churches could pool their money and buy or lease one building with a few stories to share. it is not about the walls but the worship. A communal kitchen and rest rooms and several different floors/rooms for worship.
The Constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, OR THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF." If they paid for it, they should be able to use it. This is utter bullcrap.
So they city looses the income from these churches. Renting the space is not an endorsement of religion any more than renting space to homosexuals is an endorsement of those activities. The city wouldn't toss out homosexuals, would they?
No comments. Come on. I'm playing devil's advocate here. Give me some feedback.
No comments. Come on. I'm playing devil's advocate here. Give me some feedback.
This is a direct assault on the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights. Plain and simple. This issue needs to be revisited when a judiciary grounded in the Constitution is seated. Until then, liberals rule the day.
so lets see these church groups donated audio / visual equipment to the school for the use of teachers and students… they helped give the teachers better furniture for the break room, and did other thank you projects for the school.. out of thankfulness and gratitude for being allowed to use the building on Sunday, now what will happen.. no more clean up the school days. no more paint over the graffiti days… no more new equipment for the students.. and teachers will soon find themselves back where they began over worked tired and unable to teach effectively… well then I guess that is a victory for the forces of "common" sense and atheism… put the schools back into cràppy conditions they had been taken out of through the generous donations made by the church….
Curious…could not this court also conclude that the fact school is not in session on a Sunday be a christian bias by the state? Therefore, I suggest these black robes put their money where their mouths are and demand schools be in session on Sunday.
Liberalism is a religion. So I think we should ban liberals from public schools.
"We view this as a victory for the City’s school children and their families.” They will live to eat those words. Good old New York. Unfortunate for the people in the state that are not educated stupid. Besides sponsoring no religion is RELIGION! Morons
These Judgea will be Judged themselves by THE Supreme Judge. One day God will pass His Judgement on them.
The "separation clause " is a missrepresentation of a statement by Jefferson when the government was intruding into church business. The courts are taking a statement by Jefferson out of context instead of reading the statement in the First Ammendment. "Congress" shall make no law. For more than thirty years after the Constitution was written, some states still had state religions which meant everyone in the state contributed to the state churc h. And after all, the phrase, "nor the free exercise thereof (religion)" is in the same sentance as free speach and free press. Simple English without opinion.