Apr 30, 2012
Print This Post
By Todd Starnes
Jake Naman knew something was about to happen.
The 18-year-old from Redlands, Calif., was sitting inside a cavernous building in Seattle waiting to hear from Dan Savage, the founder of the “It Gets Better” anti-bullying campaign.
Savage had been invited to speak to several thousand high school journalists attending a national conference hosted by the National Scholastic Press Association and the Journalism Education Association.
Naman, who is a yearbook photographer at Arrowhead Christian Academy, thought Savage was going to talk about his anti-bullying campaign. But the Christian teenager soon learned that Savage had a very different message for the students.
“I hope you’re all using birth control,” Savage told the teenagers as he began his remarks. From there, he regaled the young people who stories about his husband, describing how he looked in a Speedo. At one point, Savage imagined what it would be like with his husband on stage – telling the kids that they would have to pry him off his partner.
FOLLOW TODD ON FACEBOOK! CLICK HERE
Naman was growing increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and tenor of Savage’s remarks. There were more lewd comments, profane words and innuendo. And then, Savage said something that made Naman take notice.
“The Bible,” Savage said with a elongated pause.
“”The very second he said the Bible and paused, I knew it was going to get ugly,” Naman told Fox News. “It was about to be a bashing.”
And Naman was absolutely correct.
“We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people – the same way we have learned to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation,” Savage told the young students. “We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things.”
Some will say what happened next took courage – but Naman said he was simply following the prompting of the Holy Spirit. And the entire moment was captured on a video that has now gone viral on YouTube.
The 18-year-old Eagle Scout and captain of the high school track team rose to his feet – and walked out – passing by hundreds of other students who were cheering the anti-bullying advocate’s profanity-laced rant.
“I felt like in my heart I couldn’t just stay there at all,” he said. “It was a really weird feeling I just had to get out. I didn’t want to cause a scene but I really could not stand to be in that room anymore.”
Jake Naman said he felt – bullied.
“If Dan Savage had gotten up there and said ‘God hates homosexuals and they’re all going to hell,’ there would have been huge outrage from that crowd,” he said. “As Christians we get the other side of that. When our faith is attacked like that – we are ridiculed for taking a stand against it.”
Naman thought that he was the only person who walked out – but when he got to the lobby – he learned that was far from the case. Arrowhead’s entire yearbook staff followed his lead – including his 16-year-old sister.
“I was shaking,” Julia Naman told Fox News. “I saw my brother pop up and leave and I took off after him.”
So did 17-year-old Haley Mulder.
“I never felt more hurt, felt persecuted,” Mulder said. “For me, my faith is what I Want to be defined by. For someone to say it was B.S. is really hurtful. I felt put down and bullied because of my faith.”
And then it got worse for the Christian teenagers. Savage directly targeted them with his remarks.
“You can tell the Bible guys in the hall they can come back now because I’m done beating up the Bible,” he said. “It’s funny as someone on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible how pansy-assed people react when you push back.”
Naman said a number of the girls began crying. He said it seemed like such a safe environment “But then Dan Savage went off and it didn’t seem that way anymore.”
“He had a position of power as a speaker and he was using that against a group of students who had never done anything to him,” Naman said. “I would consider that bullying.”
“He was completely insulting and degrading our faith,” his sister said.
Mulder said Savage needed to practice what he preaches.
“I felt it was ironic coming from a person who was talking about not bullying,” she said.
In all about a hundred students walked out of the speech, but Naman said many others wanted to. He said some Christian teenagers felt intimidated and were afraid of what might happen if they had left.
Still, the 18-year-old said one thing was certainly obvious – “The majority of the students did not support us at all,” he said.
Savage issued a partial apology over the weekend, saying he was referring to the walk-out as “pansy-assed” and not the students. However, he stood by his profane references to the Bible.
FOX News Talk
If the truth is ugly, that isn’t our fault.
The bible is just a kludgy old book of fairy tales with very little of relevance to modern humans.
You can keep slaves, men can marry as many wives as they can chase down and keep as many sex slaves as they can afford.* You can sell your kids as sex slaves for a few bucks or stone them to death for being disobedient. There are around 20 death penalty crimes in the OT, most of which are not crimes today. It’s estimated that under OT law, 99% of the US population would be killed.
*Solomon, one of the heroes of the OT, had 700 wives and 300 sex slaves.
Even xians know this. Virtually all xian sects hide the bible as much as they can. They quote mine mercilessly and all xians are cafeteria xians including the Pope and Ken Ham. The first person to translate the bible from Latin to English, Tynsdale, was burnt at the stake by the RCC. They clearly didn’t want the common people to know what the magic book said.
Well, it’s a small point for xians. They are ashamed of what their magic book really says and try to hide it like the crazy uncle locked in the basement.
This guy is a liar and does not know the word of God. In the Old Testemant you were under the letter of the law. When Jesus came you are now under grace. What he serves is what he said the Bible is. His own plate of BS. For someone that sent to have a discussion about anti bullying just served his brand of hypocrisy. I applaud all of those who stood up and walked out. You stood for your faith in God. Just as he said that he has a right to stand up for himself, we have a right to stand up for truth. Homosexuality is a sin just as murder, adultery, lying, etc. Those who practice these things will be judged especially if they do not repent and accept Christ. You can call me whatever you like, but it will never change God nor His word, it will never change what the truth is.
I am in agreement with you Butch Dillon Jr!!!
I don't even have words for how this makes me feel.
First thing I need to address is that Christians are sinners, just like everyone else…so if they hate, fornicate or divorce they sin and fall short of God's expectations just as homosexual behavior falls short…but guess what? God has something called grace for those that place their faith in HIM. There is salvation for the homosexual who is working through his issues with God in humility and even if he is unable to change his orientation God knows and forgives him as long as the Homosexual loves God and in humble about his struggles as all Christians should be as we are all sinners. Another thing to understand is that Satan will ofter attack Christians and use them for his purpose like hate if a Christian is not careful and remain on guard…many Christians get spiritually lazy and then hate and judgement start creeping in. Understand we are sinners and we screw up and often times oblivious to our own sin. But please do not lump all Christians into this hater typecast as that is what Satan wants! read the truth in His word yourself…the whole Bible front to back before you cast judgement on the faith…my church has baptized 3 lesbians and a handful of recovering drug addicts that may or may not be delivered and we don't care, that is God's job to work on that, we just want them to know God as they are. If you read the Bible it says to come as you are…all with a heart for God are accepted with His grace and mercy through Christ, accept that gift and you are free from the Leviticus laws this guy spoke of, through Christ, the law will be in your heart which is nothing but love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself PERIOD…
2nd Lie he spoke: the Bible never supported slavery the way it was in the US….that was opression and the bible is strong in it's message against oppression, VERY Strong read it for crying out loud. What do you think the civil war was for? Why do you think there was a Christian battle hymn of The Republic the Northern Christians sang as they fought against oppression? HIS Truth is marching on… Why do you think God called Moses to free the Israelites from slavery if he liked it? Why where so many black slaves Christian then? huh? What about MLK Jr? was he not Christian? That was THE worst argument I have EVER heard! The Bible refers to how Christian slaves are to behave, which does not condone slavery. However it does say to free the oppressed and forced slavery is oppression. The Bible refers to servants which as the same as household employees now days there were servants by choice. In fact the Bible teaches that everybody should have the heart of a servant by choice. Oh Lord Jesus help us all!
"the Bible never supported slavery the way it was in the US"
Ahem…
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=435495569813594&l=5d71e0d2f1
…you ~really~ haven't read the bible…like..AT ALL, have you? *shakes head*
PS – There's only ONE tiny little part in the bible that expressly forbids homosexuality…that would be in the Old Testament (that you're always trying to claim that Christians no longer follow)…coincidentally it's shelved right in with "how to stone your children to death" and "how to sell your daughters into slavery".
Slavery is slavery, there is no "nicer slavery" or "less bad slavery", you horrific Christian revisionist!
Wow…just….WOW…
"In all about a hundred students walked out of the speech, but Naman said many others wanted to. He said some Christian teenagers felt intimidated and were afraid of what might happen if they had left."
…so about a hundred students got upset because some guy told them they should ignore bullshit in the bible about SLAVERY and other HORRIFIC and NONSENSICAL things?
…that is just…amazingly stupid!
Not that it surprises me, Christians are always trying to paint themselves up as "victims", always trying to claim that they're "oppressed" even though they're in the majority and they're responsible for the WORST oppression, slavery, hatred, malice and horror throughout history. LOL, no, sorry kids, the cross is for Christ…not for you.
And saying you got upset because someone told you to ignore SLAVERY is just…WOW…that is just ~sooo~ stereotypically Christian. *shakes head* Running around enslaving people, killing people, hating on people, all the while trying to paint yourselves up as pious and righteous. That literally ~is~ the Christian modus operand.
I LOVE the part where he describes himself as a sacred, crying little girl though…LOL, that's just AWESOME!
Obviously Matthew Moulton you're repeating what someone has told you. Have you never read Romans in the New Testament? Read the first few chapters. It can't be made more clear. ..and that's just one book from the N.T. It's very clear—God did not created same sexes to have sex. Homosexuality is even sandwiched between two other sins that God finds abominable and that's child sacrifice and having sex with animals! It also would be helpful to you to read a variety of books on o.t. practices.
Cite your bullshit, kiddo, otherwise all you've got is running at the mouth. Coincidentally, I've read NINE different versions of the Bible as well as studied the original Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek texts upon which the Bible is based.
The only real direct passage about homosexuality is in the Old Testament, Leviticius 18:22, which roughly translates to "thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman tis an abomination"
The interesting thing about that passage is that it doesn't ~actually~ condemn homosexuality when you take it in context. Specifically in the Old Testament there are a whole SLEW of passages specifically degrading and shaming women, painting them up as inferior to the point of blaming them for original sin and as such they are to be treated as "sex objects", essentially, only being allowed to live for the purpose of procreation. You can even sell your own daughters into slavery! Marriage is likewise defined in a whole variety of different ways, from being able to take your dead brothers wife as your "fuck property" as well as being able to keep sex slaves from conquered lands and likewise if you RAPE a woman she is then ~forced~ to become your husband. Such are just a few forms of "traditional marriage" as defined by the Bible.
So, like I said, that passage, taken in ~actual~ context isn't saying that you men can't have sex with each other, ~rather~ it's saying that male sexual partners are *NOT* to be treated like property and sex objects as WOMEN are. It is effectively saying that a gay relationship between two men is an EQUAL partnership, where as with a woman she is to be treated as PROPERTY.
Sharon Pettit Curtis – Mmmm, also, you need to kill yourself and then burn in hell, Sharon, because the Bible strictly forbrids women from TEACHING:
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
I Timothy 2:11-14
A grievous sin to be certain (especially when taken in context), as your work history states that you were a teacher, well, you went against God and the punishment is burning in hell for all eternity. Sorry, but that's what your Crazy Bible says!
I am amazed at the posts that say, "he didn't attack Christians, he attacked the bible". Let me tell you something. As a born again Christian, when you attack the Bible, which is very precious to me, you attack me, a Christian, because that precious book and my relationship with God are the basis of my faith. They go hand in hand. If you don't know that, then you have no clue about my faith. This man attacked our faith…period!!!
To those who, like Mr. Wright, who believe that the anti-homosexuality position belongs to only Christians: Have you ever read the Muslim, Jewish, other world religious positiions on homosexuality? I'm pretty sure that if you said this to a Muslim, you would have a pretty big problem on your hands. It is easy to stand on a bandwagon and point a finger at others. What do you stand for? What do you stand against? These are the things that define you. If we relegate ourselves to one issue, then we are ignoring a plethora of other issues that are amazingly important. I support Mr. Savage's right of speech, but if the point was to discuss anti-bullying, he did not seem very credible because he went on the attack, instead of explaining how to stand against (anti) bullying. If I stood at a podium and said the exact opposite of Mr. Savage, then I would be decried by a multitude of people and organizations. Some would call for the state to revoke my certificate, and if public pressure was high enough, they would. Mr. Savage should be encouaged to focus on anit-bulllying, and not on his personal agenda. Book the lecture as a pro-homosexuality topic, not anti-bullying.
It's a huge problem in this country, that people like that get the nod to rant at kids. What the hell is wrong with people? Very few even care about the children anymore, it's always about advancing agendas through captive audiences. And in typical libtard fashion, if they don't like my vile message, attack them.
It's a huge problem in this country, that people like that get the nod to rant at kids. What the hell is wrong with people? Very few even care about the children anymore, it's always about advancing agendas through captive audiences. And in typical libtard fashion, if they don't like my vile message, attack them.
I could give a great speach on the subject, based on common sense. And guess what? Not one person would have a clue about any agendas I have when I was finished. That is how it should be!
Dan Savage turned the tables on the pansy assed bullies! He used the bible to bully the bible bullies! Brillaint
Dan Savage turned the tables on the pansy assed bullies! He used the bible to bully the bible bullies! Brillaint
Personally I say he had every right to say what he said. Now Christians now how it feels to be hurt when the truth goes out. Sorry but the faith is telling lgbt that they are not equal to them when they were made from the same flesh and blood that DNA and GOD have provided. If you feel hurt stop hating who you disagree with. I hate men but I still show my respect and talk to them. I don't bully or say nasty things. Only truth. Christians hate gays so they eighter bully them physically, torture them in some ex-gay therapy through electric shock therapy, or even kill them. I heard more violence come from religion then anyone else. It's time we call hypocrisy on this and teach these religious fanatics to love people. You can disagree about being gay all you want but you really need to learn how to love the person cause if you haven't noticed. Being gay has nothing to do with you people.
Khristiaan you're lying and you know it. I've been a Christian over 40 yrs. and never heard anyone do what you claim. Not encouraging destructive behavior is actually love. In my opinion, those who are encouraging this immoral behavior–which is nicer than how God describes it–are the ones who are hating. Quit hating! Alcoholics, adulters, child molestors—to truly love them is to offer them a hope to stop their destructive behavior!
Sharon Pettit Curtis If your actually comparing to normal human sexuality to that perversion Id be more concerned to healing yourself then others right now. Rather how you act on loving others is your deal but of course you wouldnt pay attention to how lgbt are suffering. I know cause I've been there myself. Dont claim im lying when you live your life according to some book written by heterosexual men thousands of years ago. No offense but even the bible says you should stone your daughter if she is not a virgin after she's married. So yeah you christians sure know how to pick and choose what you want to believe cause I dont hear anyone doing that. And don't go to red lobster they serve shellfish. lol. Idiot.
Are you defining a new normal? Pediphiles claim their activity is normal—do you agree? If so, why not? What's your definition of loving? Much of our suffering is brought on by the shame and guilt we bring on ourselves by our own sin—not how others are behaving toward us. Like plucking out your eye if it sins (N.T) is demonstrating the hatred God has towards sin It separates humans from Him. Picking and choosing what I want to believe would be me choosing to say homosexuality is not a sin—-the Bible claims it is. The new covenant in the New Testament was given because of the sacrifice of Jesus—No one need be under the Old Testament Law. You really have a lot to learn—Very naive.
I am proud tosaythat jacob and julia Naman are my cousins. And I think Mr. Savage dude it an idiot. Thank God for awesome brave cousins. And thank God for compelling them to take a stand!
Brady boby, you say"you Christians" and speak of things that you hold no truths in. I may or may not be a Christian, I may support gays or not; what the hundreds of us are posting to you is none of that matters here, this was needless profane no matter what you support, that is the bottom line to this whole discussion
Good for you to walk out. A anti bully rally that bullies people! Being salt and light to the world is never easy but you did good!
I love how educated you people think you are about Islam. Not all of them are zealots. And jewish people are ALOT more open and accepting of homosexuality than the other judaic religions.
What are the other Judaic religions?
Sharon Pettit Curtis I should have said religion. There's Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. That was my fault.
There is nothing "pansy-assed" about changing the channel. There were some talking points the speaker had made, but they were all lost once he became disrespectful.
Growing up gay in a christian household, I can say I felt the bullying the bible can do. Not physically, but emotionally I will be forever scarred by the hatred perpetrated by the bible and "most" of it's followers. SHAME ON YOU!!!
Ryley, you're in total rebellion and you know it. Those who are showing hate are those that would encourage or endorse behaviors that are destructive. It's like not disciplining a child—you're not loving him, you're hating him. You're hurting no one but yourself and God warns you about that. A Christian would be a real hypocrite if they didn't embrace what claims to be His word and has proven trustworthy. You are in a lot of pain, but God can heal that, and mine too through repentence and surrender. You can shake your fist at God all you want, but he's going to win.
Growing up gay in a christian household, I can say I felt the bullying the bible can do. Not physically, but emotionally I will be forever scarred by the hatred perpetrated by the bible and "most" of it's followers. SHAME ON YOU!!!
I think RICKY said it best:
Ricky Allen Hawkins.
I am Gay, and I am also a Christian..I found this guy very offensive, he did not conduct this ANTI Bullying rally well at all! He sent a negative message out to every Christian in the audience basically bullying them for there/our beliefs! If you want people to accept you for who you are.. you can't criticize them and belittle there religious beliefs and expect them to accept you! He was wrong in what he said completely and shame on all the kids in the audience for supporting a BULLY! He has done great harm to the LGBT campaign and to his own testimony..no one in there right mind would ever allow him to speak at a school again.
I couldn't agree more. The issue wasn't what he said about the Bible, it was bullying people who disagreed.
http://flakymn.blogspot.com/2012/05/dan-savage.html
If you truly feel persecuted for your beliefs go spend a few months in a majority Islamic country.
Just because you don't get special treatment anymore doesn't mean people are persecuting you.
I commend the young people who walked out. And I pray Dan Savage learns the truth about God and the filthy, vileness of his own actions before he dies.
This was a conference specific to journalists – the very people that will soon be writing and speaking their minds for the rest of us to read. They're walking out because someone disagrees with their viewpoint? Guess what – they'll be writing or speaking about topics that offend others. When someone refutes, how will they handle that? Are they going to walk out of the middle of that too?
It seems like nothing can be said without offending someone. Dan Savage did NOT say "The Bible is full of shit and all of you that follow it are stupid". Dan Savage was focusing on the bullies of homosexuals (as a part of an anti-bullying campaign) and emphasizing that Christians pick and choose what they want to believe… so why are they picking on homosexuals?
And as a side note.. are you serious Todd Starnes? "Christian Teens Say Gay Activist Made Girls Cry"? Is that the best you can do on a title?
What a fool. He says he has to defend himself and that they don't like being pushed back? No one was pushing at him or trying to bully him, yet he bullied them by bringing down for their beliefs in the Bible. I bet for damn sure, he wouldn't have been saying stuff like that to kids who believed in the Koran. Now who's the hypocrite…
I dont like either side of this story… I think both sides of it are BS.
Billy Denney I actually feel the same way. I just don't think on either side of anything we should be attacking anyone.
I love how every single pro-gay friend I have has said the same thing; "I have gay friends and they're all so nice!" Like being gay makes you nice? A jerk is a jerk! Gay or straight, that man had no right or reason to talk like that to young people.How foul is this man with adults? Sick!
Then perhaps in their eyes he is a rarity. There are mean gays and nice ones, just like every other orientation.
So what he really means is he's against bullying for HIS particular group. You see, I'm against bullying against ALL groups. I would say it's fair, considering the diverse group of friends I have AND having been a target of bullies both before and after I came to the faith, that savage is, in fact, an emotional bully. I grew up with one of those, and I can hear them a mile away. I would not associate with a jerk like this. He thinks he's better than everyone else. That's where bullies start from. They imagine other people are less than human, then they dehumanize them. He meant that "pansy assed" comment toward the students, and he's a liar.
I think the dialogue needs to concentrate on what it means to love and hate. You're not showing love to someone if you deliberately embrace, encourage, or endorse behaviors that you know are destructive. Who would do that when raising a child? Love is making it clear (and in the case of adults—when asked or confronted with public issues that affect us all) that you, with all your understanding as a Christian, and following the only book that claims God has spoken—and has the prophetic and history, & science to back it up, the Bible—will do all in your power to convince that what they're doing will only bring sadness to their lives. That's true love from a Christian perspective. Those hating are those that would encourage others in behaviors that the God of the Bible says will only hurt them. We are all susceptible to sin, and as you live long enough, you see the Bible is right. Sin destroys life usually in this life—and if the Bible's right—the next life too. That's where grace and mercy come in IF we're willing to accept it! Having been a Christian 40 yrs. I've never seen or heard any of the accusations concerning hatred towards gay. The Bible is harsh or sin, and if Christians don't trust and embrace God's Word—they may as well find something else to do!
Based on decades of research, clinical practice, and more than 450 authoritative references, homosexuality is not a “lifestyle.” Homosexuality and sexual behavior differences result from sexual center variations in the sex behavior center of the brain. Homosexuality, excepting adult onset caused by brain changes due to viruses, tumors, and injuries, are related to hormonal conditioning of the developing brain during fetal development. Homosexuals, when compared to heterosexuals, differ in hormonal differences and responses, uncontrollable reflexes, functional MRI readings, neuroanatomy, etc. Using thousands of subjects, Bell and Weinberg, social psychologists, state “Among both men and women in our study, there is a powerful link between gender nonconformity and the development or homosexuality.”… “At the moment, a large body of convincing research appears to suggest a biological foundation for homosexuality.” Same-sexed partnerships are known to exist in higher mammals and in many intelligent species. Over 450 species show same-sexed attraction and some life long bonding.
Using blind analysis, using modern psycho-physiological, neurophysiological, and hormonal response analysis and direct assay, homosexuals can be separated from heterosexuals with much greater accuracy than Hitler could separate Jews from Aryans. When it was done in Canada, the courts found it unconstitutional. At Auschwitz, homosexuals, along with Slavs, Gypsies, nuns and priests both Roman Catholic and Protestant, and other non-Jewish dead and alive, etc. were cremated in crematory #4 with a sign that read: "Juden Verboten."
Heterosexuals significantly predominate as sex offenders, regardless of victim age, sex or gender. While there are a limited number of homosexual phebophiles (love of adolescents), those who are predatory towards other males at this age and above are almost exclusively heterosexual. In prison populations, based on percentage of their population in the community at large, homosexuals are significantly under-represented among child molesters and violent offenders..
Many who are negative to homosexuality are in no manner homophobes. Particularly during adolescence and early adult phases, homophobia presents itself mostly among those who fear their own homosexuality. Research shows many “heterosexuals” vehemently opposed to homosexuality, using scientific measures, respond the same as homosexuals. Physicians and psychologists tend to see these individuals as self-loathing homosexuals. Anti-homosexual religious zealots are either unfamiliar with or deny the voluminous scientific research on sexual orientation.
A “homosexual agenda” does not exist. Homosexuals are extremely diverse politically and many do not identify with the GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered) community or consider themselves homosexual. Being part of the GLTB is a social process necessary to help disenfranchised GLTB individuals express their opinions, helping reduce prejudice and discrimination in an anti-GLBT mileu. GLBT emphasize positive image and self-acceptance and are active in numerous charities.
The GLBT tend to rely on scientific studies that show other than sexual orientation, there are few differences between GLBTs and heterosexuals. The GLBT community appears to be advocating for issues like: same-sexed marriage, full citizens’ rights, hate crimes legislation and support for all GLBT persons. The GLBT community supports heterosexuals and appropriate sexual behavior between consenting adults regardless of sexuality.
While social process is involved in sexual expression, it does not determine sexual orientation. To avoid stigma, some become pseudo-heterosexuals. Religiously motivated conversion therapy has never been scientifically documented to change a persons natural underlying sexual orientation. Pseudo-heterosexuality is the objective of such therapies. Many unable to change are significantly depressed and suicidal. “Two of Exodus International’s founders, Michael Bussee and Garry Cooper, fell in love and left the organization in 1979.”.
Sexual orientation should not form the basis for discrimination or inequality. It should remind us of God’s variant creation. Could homosexuality be a means of population control as suggested by Carl Jung? The opposition to GLBT persons is contrary to the compassionate and loving teachings of Jesus Christ (Mt 7.1-5).
Dr. Murphy is a retired Cal Poly psychologist, lectured at international universities, did medical research at the University of Washington, and was a consulting forensic psychologist for the State of California criminal justice system. He has presented authoritative scientific papers on sexual orientation internationally to professional organizations, the public, legislative officials, and the courts. For a scientific article with references, email dr.murphy@att.net.
Jake Naman and the other Christians who walked out when Mr Savage was bashing the Bible…so proud of each and everyone of you for taking a stand and showing that you are dedicated followers of God. Praying for you all!
Jake Naman and the other Christians who walked out when Mr Savage was bashing the Bible…so proud of each and everyone of you for taking a stand and showing that you are dedicated followers of God. Praying for you all!
The real crime is why all the "adults" in the room allowed this bullying and child abuse to go on? Why didn't someone man up and hit this creep with a 4000PSI water hose?
Those using profanity to criticize D.S. could be using such to try to make it appear that Christians are responding. There is no evidence they are Christians—just like the Phelps family who frequent funerals and call themselves "Baptists"—I think it's a brilliant ploy, but in actuallty have no connection with Jesus. J. C. followers are told to "judge", to not be fooled by wolves in sheep's clothing. If you check the back ground of the leader of the Phelps family, you'll find he's no conservative, but a liberal parading as such, and very deceitful.
This proves how far and how low the the left has taken indoctrination of their agenda into the schools.
Had he attacked Islam, the reaction from the rest of the crowd would have been much different. Our tax $$$ are being used for a PERV to describe his clearly sexual thoughts about his partner.
The only talking this guy should be doing is in jail, and then on a list of predators.
Did you notice how he worked the "GOP" into his rambling?
This proves how far and how low the the left has taken indoctrination of their agenda into the schools.
Had he attacked Islam, the reaction from the rest of the crowd would have been much different. Our tax $$$ are being used for a PERV to describe his clearly sexual thoughts about his partner.
The only talking this guy should be doing is in jail, and then on a list of predators.
He is just a hate filled loud moth, who knows the gay lifestyle is sinful.His type can't see hope for their existence.Just a life of pain and unhappiness.They are full of pride, which drives all sinners, and makes them rationalize what they are doing is ok with God.Yet, they know very well it is not.his causes them to look for empowerment by undermining others.
I'd beat this man to a pulp for being such a bully. I could care less about what he has to say about the Bible but for acting the very way he criticizes others for he should be hurt.
I am amazed at how narrow minded people choose to view what happened.
America needs to get the stick out of its collective butt.
You don't like how he pointed out an uncomfortable truth about the bible? Tough luck.
You don't get to choose what is truth, and the truth is that we have come to accept that some facets of biblical teaching are antiquated and have no meaning in the 21st century.
For centuries the bible was used as a promoter of slavery, until most of us came to reality and understood that it is an evil abomination, except for some nutjobs down south who still think anyone with darker skin than a redneck's forearms should serve their 'betters'.
With regard to sexuality such as masturbation and homosexuality it gets simple. The bible was written at a time when infant mortality rates were extremely high so if you weren't constantly getting a woman pregnant, then you were not contributing towards sustaining the tribe and needed to be dealt with in a manner that could be deemed justified.
Similarly is the treatment of women explained. Very early in the adolescence of judaism, when they first broke away from cannanism it was not under one god, but under a husband and wife pair of gods. Some time after that it was revised and men gained sole control over the religion. They had to take away as much power from women as they could to accomplish this. So parts were added to explains the 'evils' of the female half of the species and all traces of yahweh's wife were eliminated.
As Americans, when we get told something we don't want to hear in a way that isn't coated with enough sugar to give an elephant diabetes, we act like a 5 year old who just got their hand smacked with a wooden spoon for sticking our hand in the cookie jar half an hour before dinner. We consider the person who is trying to drive proper behavior through our thick skulls to be some kind of inhuman invader.
So instead of using his rant as an excuse to claim that everyone is persecuting the christian faith, when less than 10% of the cases are actual persecutions, try listening to what he said. Listen to what he said, take the time to understand what and why he said it. Then use that understanding to make reasoned judgements about what the bible calls us to do and why and finally to decide if that is still a legitimate need today. Things like sustaining the tribe have no legitimate claim today where we are an overpopulated cluster of people, meaning there is no basis to oppose homosexuality, masturbation, or contraception.
I could go on and on, but lets face it, most of you got through the first few sentences and couldn't help but react to the sliver in your colon caused by that stick.
We've lived with your bullshit for years. And now SUDDENLY when someone calls you out on your SHIT it's bullying? Grow a pair. We did.
The god I know is a loving god. The god I know doesn't know hate. The god I know is my father. The god I see around me is the ego of human society. Sharon, I'm not in rebellion… And i know it. I was raised to belive that god would judge me, when that day arrives, on how I judged other people. I've made peace with Christians that have bullied me or said that I was anything less then gods child. I pitty you. God will judge you for your transgressions against your fellow brothers and sisters. Sharon it is you who is in rebellion. Rebellion against gods only wish for his sons and daughters alive today. Rebellion against happiness. You hide behind your faith as a shield from your sins. I pitty you Sharon. And I pitty what god has to watch you and others do falsely in his name. He will forgive you though… And I will pray for your souls.
Ultimately, the only important questions is "what is true?"
I spent 25 years in Christianity, and now I've been god-free for about 18 years. If you'd like to read my story, google "reasons for my deconversion", or send me a PM.
…"questions is"…I need to head back to school to learn some grammar…
Trying to figure your intent in posting and I've come to the conclusion that you are not content in going your little miserable way in unbelief, but want to take as many along with you as possible. It stems, I believe not only for a desire for attention/significance but actually demonstrates cowardness, and that entails pride. I've been a Christian over 40 yrs., and some of your comments in your testimony are you wanting to believe you searched out all the "avenues" to find truth—and you just couldn't find it in Christianity. Interesting how you say all the positives things about Christians, because of course, you did meet some obviously genuine believers, but made it sound as if you were taught others were evil, outside the faith and you found it not to be so. Of course you want no want to quote scripture to you—because you've read it all, etc. But, I couldn't help but questioning your motives. Apparently you're trying to convince others it's to spare them from the pain you experienced. I've met people who have been in church for yrs., but lack maturiity and stability in faith.
Of course you don't want anyone quoting scripture to you (I'm sure it was convicting at one time) but this is for anyone who might take anything you say to heart. 2 Peter 2 Refering to false teacher: "…seducing unstable people…(they've) by abandoning the straight path, they have gone astray and have followed the path of Balaam…(These people)…for uttering bombastic, empty words, they seduce by fleshly desires & debauchery, people who have barely escaped from those who live in error."
Sharon Pettit Curtis
I understand your perspective, Sharon. Feel free to dialog with me directly to find out more about who I am now. Cheers.
"…thry are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them…(like the proverb) A dog returns to its own vomit." (He concludes) that "…The untaught and unstable twist then to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures." Therefore….be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of the immoral and fall from your own instability…"
Sharon Pettit Curtis
If you will only ask questions, I will do my utmost to answer them in an honest and detailed fashion. But you'll have to ask questions. I did not study the bible to leave god, but that was the result. If you are interested in my journey from believer to non-believer, please ask questions. To this point, you've only told me what you think my motivations are and have quoted the very scriptures I've rejected for their internal inconsistency. Seriously, please ask questions if you want to know more.
Jude 1, when writing to the early church advised them to CONTEND for the faith (and of course all the warnings including the apostates…10 But these people blaspheme anything they don't understand, and what they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals—they destroy themselves with these things. WOE TO THEM! and 16, These people are discontented grumblers, walking according to their desires; their mouths utter arrogant words, flattering people for their own advantage…(remember) In the end time there will be scoffers walking according to their own ungodly desires. These peopl create divisions and are merely natural, not having the Spirit.
Perhaps this will help. Imagine that you'd like to persuade a Muslim that your beliefs are superior to theirs, yet they never ask you questions, but instead tell you what your motivations are and quote the Qur'an. How intellectually honest, rational and open-minded would you judge them to be?
So, in conclusion, I'd say your determination to undermine Biblical truth lines up with the characteristics of those listed as anti-Christs—which of course is what your essays are offering—-not THE anti-Christ, and you will face those consequencess.( and I've also read the liberal scholars that make cases against scripture, but there are also those, thank God, who make good rebuttal arguments to counter those) Thankfully, repentence & forgiveness is always an option—something available for all our sins.
Sharon, you're not paying attention, and it's making you look silly. I am here waiting for you to ask tough questions about why I left the god of the bible, and you have simply thrown up a wall of bible verses I know well to presumably insulate yourself from having to think. Lower that wall for a moment, take a deep breath, ponder whether there is a rational reason to abandon the god you are clearly highly devoted to, then ask questions to see if my arguments are truly rational. I promise to answer the best I can. If you have a real spirit of god on your side leading you into all truth, it is a no-brainer since that god will quickly shame my illogic through your questions. Go for it.
Phil Stilwell Sorry, I did not see your responses. I actually read your commentary. I posted in chunks b/c I kept losing it. I really have no questions for you. I read your comments and clearly see where you're coming from. I'm just making the point that you have the freedom to go your way,, just don't try to discourage everyone else. I deal with hurting desperate people who have hope because of the interventions (quite miraculous) that God has done for them and often wonder where they'd be. Sorry that you were involved in a powerless Christian group—I know many are and I do think those circles are those that will fulfill the prophecy that there will b a great falling away before J. C. returns.
You have no questions for me? Are you kidding?
Did you actually read my account of of my deconversion, and now instead of a response to my reasons for leaving the biblical god, you simply throw up this wall of bible verses thinking they will make my logical deconstruction of biblical claims somehow less logical? Do you not have even a single response to anything I offered in the account of my deconversion? Is this the pathetic degree of rationality your god provides? You simply state what you think my motivations are without asking questions? You post multiple verses that do not address my reasons for rejecting bible verses? This is a rational god that is speaking through you? Really?
Here, do this. Before you post another comment, pray to your god to provide you with the highest degree of rationality possible so those reading these posts can assess whether your words carry the scent of an all-powerful and presumably all-rational god.
Also do what I asked earlier; consider a muslim who will not ask questions about your position, and only tells you what your motivations are and quote qu'ranic verses. is this how a rational god would have his constituents respond?
Phil Stilwell I have no interest in asking you questions. I find your comments are the same as I've been reading for 40 yrs—nothing new in response to the analysis/questions of Biblical authority/authenticity. I suggest you go to Stand to Reason str.org., and Greg Koudl does an excellent job in dealing with biblical questions. He does it full time—not me. There's no time nor space here to deal with all the discussion/scholarship questions of biblical criticism, nor do I have any confidence in discussing it with "the man in the moon". I think if you're as bright as you think, that you consider my admonition to go your way, but leave those unstable in the faith alone and give them a chance to be taught by TRULY educated, Spirit led people.
Imagine a muslim telling you to stop evangelizing with the christian gospel those muslims who are weak in their muslim faith. Do you understand your double-standard?
Those claiming to have the spirit of god provide a perfect opportunity for those honestly inquiring about that god to assess the mind of that god since the mind of that god will be reflected in the words of the believer. Sharon's god is clearly logically challenged.
Mohammed made no claims, nor was it prophesied concerning his death/ressurection. He's still dead. The ressurrection, eye witnesses, the empty tomb, those willing to die for the risen savior, etc. Lots of books… the Bible, common message throughout history, culminating in salvation for mankind. I would share this with a Muslim. Please don't give me all the scholars that have pointed out this and that—-It's old hat. There are scholars on both sides of the issue, and you've made your choice. May your life give you some measure of satisfaction—-and so far—-you claim it is—but it's not over. According to the Word, rejection of the truth He has revealed means—this is it for you. That's sad—and it would be for most in the world where life has been far from satisfying….Go into all the world and preach the gospel…!
Phil you can continue in your rebellion all you like. It cracks me up people who shake their fist at God—if there is a God. Arrogance/pride—–so destructive!
Sharon, pay attention. The muslim is telling you not to share your position since it will destroy the muslim faith of those muslims with weak faith. You demand that I stop my attack on the weak faith of some christians. Do you not see the double standard?
Seriously Sharon, before you post another logically incoherent word embarrassing yourself, get on your knees before your god, and ask him to give you only logical responses. Then clearly post that you have done this, then feel free to post all you want knowing that your god's reputation hangs in the balance. Do you words reflect the mind of your god? You'd better hope not based on what you've offered so far.
For those of you committed to rationality, google "the impossible god" to read a blog explaining why the god of the bible and his myth of redemption fail time after time when honestly scrutinized by those who are looking for a logically coherent god.
Phil Stilwell I have no problem whatsoever with a Muslim sharing their beliefs with a Christian. If you have any knowledge, you know the evidence and apologetics for Christianity are far greater, and with prayer and the Holy Spirit working, the door could be opened to truth. As a matter of fact, I would welcome that one on one discussion. I'm talking about you, a disgruntled, rejector of Christianity, who is trying to convince others to your apostate state. You haven't explained your purpose. What is it? Of course as this site is addressingf the Dan Savage speech, I'm guessing it's to undermine biblical authority for saying homosexuality is wrong. Quit your condescending comments. It's annoying.
Sharon, there was a man in the bible named Jonah whose motivation was not noble, yet his message was allegedly spot-on.
You can address my arguments. You may not speculate about my motivations or "disgruntled" emotions as a response to my arguments unless you also admit that this logical fallacy comes from the mind of your god that you presumably speak for. To this point, your god's reputation has been horribly tarnished by your words that presumably emerge from his spirit. You are ample evidence against your god.
And stop claiming to have read my "reasons for my deconversion". You actually asked about my motivation. I stated my motivation clearly in that message to my christian friends.
Read Sharon's first few posts above. Now evaluate her comment "Quit your condescending comments. It's annoying."
Is this the mind of an almighty god on her hypocritical lips?
Sharon, do this. 1. Find yourself a logical god. 2. Ask that god speak logically through you. It's never too late to start.
So my motivation here is to demonstrate that the biblical god is a silly myth based on many logical incoherencies I've addressed both in "reasons for my deconversion" and in "the impossible god" (both are easily googleable).
However, the easiest way to demonstrate the logical incoherence of the biblical god here on this thread seems to be to simply point to Sharon, a person who allegedly has the spirit of god speaking through her.
Phil Stilwell Oh please Phil! I've detected from your first post that you are a very angry individual who has obviously been deeply hurt by someone. Anger usually comes from hurt. God can heal that pain—no matter who caused it. Nobody forces you to serve God, believe in God, or like Christians—including me, but, here's logic: I might be the dumbest, dorkiest, rudest person in the world, but that in no way makes the truth claims of the gospel—Jesus Lived, died, & rose again–untrue. You are pouring your anger out on me because you've given up a lot–and I'm sure you truly hope there's no truth in the Bible.
Phil Stilwell hahahahaha! Yes—-point to Sharon—-we'll all know if God is real—if Jesus Christ is the the only way to salvation—-Wouldn't that be great! Thanks Phil!
What do other readers think?
Read the 1st 10 posts in this thread, then guess who actually has the audacity to later claim "Quit your condescending comments. It's annoying."
For this gross hypocrisy, I'm now angry. Sharon will go on to cite this anger as ample reason to ignore my actual arguments against faith in the biblical god.
It's a common tactic. Make someone angry, then claim the anger or some other pain is reason to to rationally assess the arguments.
If there are any other readers out there who do not wish to believe a lie, feel free to google "the impossible god" and "reasons for my deconversion". While I do not easily suffer fools such as Sharon, I'm more than happy to explain my thought to those committed to following truth wherever that my lead. Cheers!
Phil Stilwell I'm sure they think I'm the meanest person in the world! I see love for fellow man a little differently. I don't like to coddle— but instead I like stating truth, and see that as true concern for mankind—because what's at stake is too important!!!!
Truth does not come from hypocrites, Sharon. Truth not not emerge from an illogical mind, Sharon. Sorry, but you're up the creek of dogmatism without a rational paddle in sight.
Yes. follow Phil and find true, worthwhile meaning to this life. Good Luck! Those poor followers of Jesus who walked with Him and were willing to die for that truth, and did,, as they saw those brought back to life and His power over nature! He still is working miracles today! Google Nothing's too Hard for God and see how the power of the N. T. God is working in lives today! Don't be deceived by false teachers!
This exchange between Sharon and myself is an excellent way to assess whether the god Sharon represents and presumably speaks the mind of is anywhere close to the rational mind we would expect from the almighty god of the universe. If any of you other readers have honest questions, I'll be glad to tell you more about my journey to true freedom in the honest pursuit of truth. And if any of you would like to address my actual arguments, that is also welcomed. If I am wrong, I honestly want a rational explanation why. As long as we are both committed to rationality, there is no reason not to assess or reassess assumptions. Is your mind like Sharon's, or are you sincerely interested in following truth wherever that may lead? Join me in the adventure of an intellectually honest quest for what is true.
Dogmatic about truth—-Yes!! Maybe in your opinion those other things are true—but it still says nothing about the truth claims of the N. T. writers, Jesus' willing death for our sins (and yours) the empty tomb, and the claims that the end will come, and He will return to bring judgment on those who have willingly rejected His great salvation and caused others to stumble too. Thank you for confirming that the time is getting closer!
Phil Stilwe Trust me people, this is not "an excellent way to assess" the truth of the God of the Bible. Go to str.org if you want smart intellectual discussions on these topics, etc. and not Phil's site—even though he thinks of himself as an intellectual. Trust me on this. He's not, and neither am I.
If you are only interested in the short-cut to "truth" faith provides, you'll not want to read my arguments. But if you're confident that your beliefs are rational and can stand the scrutiny of logic, I invite you to both read my arguments, and dialog with me on those arguments.
And remember, Sharon has the spirit of her god that is presumably leading her to say the things she says. How does her god measure up?
Phil Stilwell And Phil has his own spirit. Good luck with that!
I claim to have the spirit of reason. Sharon claims to have the spirit of the god of the universe. The words of our respective spirits are there for all to evaluate.
Phil Stilwell Of all the writers of the Old and New Testaments—–covering thousands of years of history—many different cultures–with God communicating to mankind—the good, the bad, and the ugly—it's really doubtful if we all need Phil Stilwell to enlighten us with his little self centered analysis of life—–and I'm sure your self promotion of "having the spirit of reaason" and all that that entails, is quite profound! Sorry Phil I see you're desperate for a following. And as it is written….. pride comes before the fall! Knowledge does "puff" up as the Word says!
Thanks for your words Sharon. They are the rope upon which you've hanged yourself and your god as no real god would allow such irrational, unsubstantiated and personal attacks to be spoken. But you'll never see the rope around your neck until you look in the mirror of self-scrutiny rather imagining the necks of those you disagree with burning forever in hell for their commitment to rationality. You are pathetic human being…but don't feel too bad. To my shame I once held your beliefs, attitude and the pride that cause you now to believe that a loving god is noble in his desire to eternally torment creatures who neither requested nor can avoid the sin nature for which they will be eternally burned. It is precisely incoherent notions of god like this that make your god impossible and your comments the rants of a fool. Don't take it personally. I was that same fool 20 years ago.
Sharon seems to know a bit about the bible she claims is the sole source of truth. I also know a small amount about the bible. I have an idea.
Sharon, let's have a public debate on the logical coherency of the holy bible and the god it promotes. You'll have this alleged god on your side to the full degree that he exists, and I'll just have rationality. It should be an easy win for you, but I'm willing to embarrass myself in the quest for truth.
I've done a couple debates before, and we can use the same format if you don't mind. Google "Snake Oil Jesus | Vekl comes knocking" to view this format. Either you can start with your version of the gospel, or I will start with an argument against the biblical god as he is traditionally defined.
Fair enough?
Phil Stilwell Hell is actually a good place. Go to str.org and see Greg's commentary on hell. It's that final justice that we all desire and sometimes don't see here on earth. Sadly, no one need go. Obviously you missed the whole concept & understanding of surrendering that sin nature to Christ, who was perfectly obedient, and helps give us victory in our weaknesses. I can be pathetic–true. But, I was right about one thing—you're a hurt, angry person. "no real god would allow such irrational, unsubstantiated and personal attacks to be spoken"…..Hmmmm??? Where did you get your ideas of God? Why do you even think this? Am I some robot? What's your source? Your reasoned mind? It is to our benefit, that the God I serve claims he loves those who follow after Him with their whole heart. If He were not the true God, you could suppose that a superior intelligence could do as He/She chooses in regards to us little nobodies down here, and there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it. Fortunately for us, if my God is real, and there is good evidence He is the all powerful creator He claims to be, He says he wants the best for us, if we follow and trust Him. I would also suggest you read Signature in the Cell by Dr. Stephen Meyer—just so you can truly get a better view of the current science of man/universe and of the God you so arrogantly malign. I defintely don't take it personally. I am sure you probably might have been a fool 20 yrs. ago, because for sure, your condition didn't happen overnight!
Sharon, the debate I'm proposing with be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate how I got thing wrong about your god. You'll have to come up with actual arguments rather than your silly claims that that I am a "hurt, angry person" and the subsequent hypocrisy of calling me arrogant.
But you have your god leading you into all truth. You rightfully claim that neither of us is an intellectual, so with your advantage of your god on your side, it will be a simple matter to rationally dispatch my arguments.
When shall we begin? Let's start with the notion that humans deserve eternal damnation for following a sin nature they do not request and cannot avoid. This will be a great opportunity for you to share the wonderful gospel of Jesus.
Sharon, the debate I'm proposing with be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate how I got things wrong about your god. You'll have to come up with actual arguments rather than your silly claims that that I am a "hurt, angry person" and the subsequent irony of calling me arrogant.
But rest in the assurance that you have your god leading you into all truth. You rightfully claim that neither of us is an intellectual, so with your advantage of the spirit of your god on your side, it will be a simple matter to rationally dispatch my arguments.
When shall we begin? Let's start with the notion that humans deserve eternal damnation for following a sin nature they do not request and cannot avoid. This will be a great opportunity for you to share the wonderful gospel of Jesus.
Phil Stilwell Debates on the really difficult things have already been covered by the experts. Try John Lennox vs Christopher Hitchens; William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins; and one you've probably never heard of, the dvd, Conversations w/ an Atheist by Greg Koukl. They have brilliant responses to the tough questions. I will send you the last dvd if you message me a mailing address. Why would you have any interest in debating someone you consider irrational, illogical, & ignorant—other than to bolster your emotional needs with "gotchas", when intelligent responses actually take much space and time–even books? I certainly don't want to spend any more time discussing this with you—someone I feel is a blatant rebel—who only the Spirit of God and His mercy—through sincere repentence, can change. The only reason I responded to you at all is b/c of your determination to recruit others to your ignorant ranks. This is my last post to you—there are too many people that are actually seeking the truth of God—not being a recruiter for the other side.
Sharon Pettit Curtis
Sharon, pay attention. Count the words you've written claiming my ideas are wrong. Now count the actual arguments you've presented in response to my arguments. Are you starting to get the picture? It's time for you to either back up your words or admit you can't and that you've got nothing to offer but unsubstantiated fluff. Do you actually understand the arguments of your intellectual heroes? Then it will be a small matter to distill their arguments into your own words. But that really should not be necessary since you have the spirit of god giving you superior understanding of truth. You'll tear apart my position, no doubt, with the logical power of the god that dwells within you. You've nothing to fear.
If you don't debate me, count all the words you've written without a single response to any one of my many arguments against god. Zilch. Pathetic. But, hey, perhaps if you keep on with the red herring affirmations that I'm hurt and angry, your audience may forget that I have actual arguments awaiting your response…
So to recap, you have hitherto offered nothing but fluff. I'm giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that you actually understand the arguments of your intellectual heroes and/or demonstrate that the spirit of your god actually plays an active role in your intellectual life. Quit now, and you'll have merely shown the extent to which you don't have the foggiest understanding of how to construct a logical argument in defense of your rather arrogant claims. But don't feel bad. It's mighty hard to do when you're on the wrong side of truth.
I spent years defending the god of the bible, and I did not leave christianity lightly. For several years I begged for the god that was real to make himself known to me as I actively honed my critical thinking skills. Now this arrogant fool Sharon, not knowing a thing about me, nor having the honesty to ask questions about my journey, is calling my emergence from christianity a "hurt and angry" response to something? She not only lack any god of reason in her intellectual life, she also lacks the moral integrity to ask questions about someone before telling them their motivations. She's quite the billboard for the christian arrogance that is driving millions of young people away from the bankrupt ideology of christianity. The biblical god is an impotent concept that offers its sycophants no detectable intellectual or moral superiority as demonstrated quite perfectly by Sharon and her ilk.
Sharon is a fool. For those of you more rational who would like to ask questions before passing judgment, you have my full attention and civility.
Sharon, pay attention. Count the words you've written claiming my ideas are wrong. Now count the actual arguments you've presented in response to my arguments. Are you starting to get the picture? It's time for you to either back up your words or admit you can't and that you've got nothing to offer but unsubstantiated fluff. Do you actually understand the arguments of your intellectual heroes? Then it will be a small matter to distill their arguments into your own words. But that really should not be necessary since you have the spirit of god giving you superior understanding of truth. You'll tear apart my position, no doubt, with the logical power of the god that dwells within you. You've nothing to fear.
If you don't debate me, count all the words you've written without a single response to any one of my many arguments against god. Zilch. Pathetic. But, hey, perhaps if you keep on with the red herring affirmations that I'm hurt and angry, your audience may forget that I have actual arguments awaiting your response…
So to recap, you have hitherto offered nothing but fluff. I'm giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that you actually understand the arguments of your intellectual heroes and/or demonstrate that the spirit of your god actually plays an active role in your intellectual life. Quit now, and you'll have merely shown the extent to which you don't have the foggiest understanding of how to construct a logical argument in defense of your rather arrogant claims. But don't feel bad. It's mighty hard to do when you're on the wrong side of truth.
I spent years defending the god of the bible, and I did not leave christianity lightly. For several years I begged for the god that was real to make himself known to me as I actively honed my critical thinking skills. Now this arrogant fool Sharon, not knowing a thing about me, nor having the honesty to ask questions about my journey, is calling my emergence from christianity a "hurt and angry" response to something? She not only lacks a god of reason to ground her intellectual life, she also lacks the moral integrity to ask questions about someone before telling them their motivations. She's quite the billboard for the christian arrogance that is driving millions of young people away from the bankrupt ideology of christianity. The biblical god is an impotent concept that offers its sycophants no detectable intellectual or moral superiority as demonstrated quite perfectly by Sharon and her ilk.
Sharon is a fool. For those of you more rational who would like to ask questions before passing judgment, you have my full attention and civility.
Phil Stilwell Help me here with logic Phil. If your opinion of me is that I'm irrational, illogical, dogmatic, intelligence challenged, why would you persist in a debate? It would seem from your point of view, that it would be like me insisting on a debate with a 12 yr. old, and if I did out debate him (which I probably wouldn't), would that really prove that my point of view is the winning view? Hardly. So, in your own view of your brilliance, why, in the name of logic, would you even consider debating such an idiot? What a waste of time—-you'd think!
If I thought you were rational, I would privately ask you to teach me something. Since I believe you are irrational, your logical failures in a public debate will teach others.
Let's begin, shall we?
If I thought you were rational, I would privately ask you to teach me something. Since I believe you are irrational, your logical failures in a public debate will teach others.
(Of course, based on your ideology, that could never happen. You would simply ask the Lord to speak through you, I will be shamed by the cogency of your arguments, the audience will see the beauty of Jesus in your logic, and the Lord will be glorified. You can't lose.)
Let's begin, shall we?
Phil Stilwell Do you have anything new to offer, question, criticize, analyze concerning the Bible, God, religion, etc.? The answer is no. There have been books written, debates & discussions, etc. over centuries, pro & con, and you actually believe you have something new to offer? Trust me, you don't. And you have time to waste debating me? My last post: "…the more self-centered people get, the more miserable and the more in denial they become…Hell is a self-centered ego going on for a billion yrs. God according to Romans 1, lets people have what they want–and hell is simply serving yourself, going on forever. Hell is God giving you the life you want, on into eternity." In Ezekiel 18:30 God says, "I will judge you, each one according to his ways." But the verse goes on with God pleading with his people: "Repent!" Turn away from you offenses…Why will you die?…I take no pleasure in the death of anyone…Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:30-32) Timothy Keller—The Reason for God.
Sharon, you can ask me any question you don't answer yourself, you arrogant self-absorbed sorry excuse for a theist. The answer to your question is YES. I do have something new to offer. If what I offer in our debate is not new, call me on that. I'm promising arguments you have not seen before and can NOT coherntly answer. If you do, you will have glorified your god, and have shown me to be completely void of substance.
You have nothing to fear and much to look forward to if you actually believe your own words.
Now stop this silly delay of pompous questions you won't let me answer, and let's get to the debate where you'll have to actually back up what you say. Good grief. I've never seen someone write so many unsubstantiated words and think they've said something important. In this debate you can offer argumentation and evidence; nothing more. No speculation about my motivations, and no questions of me that you pompously answer yourself. Welcome to the world of rationality.
Let get started. Would you like to go first by presenting the causal dynamics behind the gospel? Tell us why we deserve eternal damnation, then explain how a 3-day death of one man is a just substitution for the deserved eternal deaths of billions. I will create a blog site to post the exchange, and you can mirror it on your own blog. But we both agree that it will not ever be deleted. After you shame me with your superior logic, I can not delete the site.
You talk as if you think there is substance behind your position. Let's find out.
(My scorn here is limited to arrogant theists such as Sharon who pompously attack the messenger rather than addressing the message. I have many theists friends who do provide arguments for their position, and we have some great civil discussions. Sharon is an example of why christianity, inherently fairly innocuous, can evolve into something insidious when you reach a critical mass of arrogant dogmatists who can't carry a rational tune, and simply rap their lies to the gullible.)
Phil Stilwell http://strplace.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/a-response-to-and-challenge-to-dan-savage/http://strplace.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/a-response-to-and-challenge-to-dan-savage/
Now stick to posting links, Sharon, and you won't be mistaken for someone who has her own (irrational) opinion.
Back to my original invitation; if anyone would like to know how I came out of the dogmatism you've seen in Sharon, google "reasons for my deconversion", then feel free to ask any further questions you have.
todd starnes, your an idiot… I watched that video and it was awesome. then I read what you had to say about it and I realized your not worth of living.
todd starnes, your an idiot… I watched that video and it was awesome. then I read what you had to say about it and I realized your not worth of living.
It was interesting that this ‘person’ was there to talk about how to stop ‘bullying’ maybe to help the youth to understand how to cope with ‘bullying’. Yet he was the one who was doing the actual bullying, that fascinated me here was a supposed adult bullying young people. And it is true that he took the scriptures out of context and he does not have the basic understanding of just what ‘slavery’ was in the society of the Children of Israel’s time. Well he sure showed that he knows about something and all he knows is how to bully youth. For any ‘Christian’ that goes off about homosexuality and who do ‘bully’ or condemn homosexuals you too needs to go back and read Lev. It does not state that the person is an abomination unto God but that ‘IT” (meaning the act of what we call homosexuality) is an abomination unto God. A true Christian will not bully, or condemn others just because of their sexuality orientation, color etc. Love the person not the sin; most Christians do not understand this concept.
Samantha Raether Sin brings separation from God (and Samantha you can only make your comments with any confidence in their truth, if you're admitting the Bible is true and God's Word, or why else would you quote anything it says?) Mayfield's comments are not solely "opinion". They are derived from scripture, which tells people to repent and turn from their sin—–and the scripture never implies that you should never confront anyone concerning sin, just b/c we have a sin nature–quite the contrary—if they're claiming to be believers, it says just the opposite. Luke 17:3 "…If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him…" This misunderstanding of the Bible happens all the time for people who really are not knowledgeable in its teaching. You already admitted this was sin, and wrongly concluded that no one should say anything. Wrong—particularly if that person is claiming Jesus as savior. We can all fall, but if we call on Him in repentence, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, can have victory.
the phrase…just b/c we have a sin nature…(was intended as) doesn't mean it's an excuse to yield to it——
The Bible does not preach slavery. Paul told believers who were already slaves how to show Jesus to their masters. That's very easy to show to anyone who really wants to look at it. He is a bully. Personality force and strawman arguments.
The only thing dumber then religion is religious people.
The only thing dumber then religion is religious people.
I don't care if he wants to bash the bible. That's just his ignorant opinion. It's nasty that he called out the students and bullied them for taking a stand.
For those who are against the LGBT Agenda on biblical grounds, listening to this man's approach, delivery and intent not to mention the fact he is an administration lackey, is just fuel for the fire. Under all the self-righteous pretense, this is the real heart and soul of the Movement!
http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm
I think there is irony and some truth to what he says.who has studied to show themselves approved so that when the WORD is mocked, they can make a mockery of the one who mocks it?