Oct 26, 2011
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An Alabama school district has been accused of allowing prayers that invoke the name of Jesus during high school football games, according to a complaint filed by a national atheist organization.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation said the Lauderdale County school district has violated the First Amendment by allowing the prayers at Brooks High School.
School superintendent Bill Valentine confirmed to Fox News that he had received the complaint.
“We’ve referred that complaint to our attorney and we are in the process of reviewing it,” he said.
The complaint was lodged by a single resident who objected to the student-led prayer before high school football games played on school property.
The Times Daily newspaper identified the complainant as Jeremy Green. In an email to the newspaper, Green said he was taking a stand for the so-called “separation of church and state in an effort to protect the constitutional rights of the non-religious.”
“It is not the job of the public school system to endorse religion,” he wrote.
Valentine said that to his knowledge, no one has ever lodged a complaint with the school system about the prayers.
The Freedom from Religion Foundation filed a similar complaint against a school in Arab, AL. That school decided to end pregame prayers and instead offer a moment of silence.
Valentine said they haven’t made any decision about prayers for Friday night’s football game.
He said the complaint has generated lots of telephone calls – mostly in support of keeping the prayers. He added that most callers have been understanding and “seem to appreciate the quandary we find ourselves in.”
Lauderdale County has about 8,600 students enrolled in public schools and Valentine said the community has a very active religious community.
Among those is David McKelvey, pastor of the nearby First Baptist Church, Killen. He discussed the controversy during his Sunday sermon.
“It’s very sad,” McKelvey told Fox News. “I would think that any other prayer from another religion would not receive this kind of negativity.”
McKelvey said he’s attended football games when students deliver prayer and to his knowledge they have always been benign – mostly prayers for the players, the coaches, the referees and the fans.
“They are in the Christian context with the student ending the prayer in Jesus’ name,” he said.
The pastor called the complaint “unfortunate” but not surprising. Christianity, he said, is under attack.
“It’s going on all over the place,” he said. “You just hate for it to be coming to your doorstep.”
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It's not like they forced athiest kids to pray to Jesus! I go to Middletown High School in MD and we pray before every game and it isn't forced on anyone… if you don't want to you don't have to but at least let us Christians. we don't tell athiest that it's illegal to not pray!
P.S. I know the only reason this country is here is because God allowed us to be… So we need to think twice before we take Him out of the government.
P.S.S. anyone else see the problem with the attack directed right at 'Jesus' in the prayer?
A public school receives government money. The government cannot enforce any religion (First amendment), they must treat every one the same. So if you want to pray, sure. But the school cannot. I think if a school started praying to Allah you wouldn't feel the same way.
James Grimplin Jr But in the lawsuit it directly attacks Christianity. Also The athiest were never forced to pray so they can't really sue for a choice other kids made.
But (probably a little extreme) I believe that seperation of Church and state is too harsh, I truly think that if this country started turning to the Bible on issues we wouldn't be in the mess we are today… now If they had an islamic, buddhist, hindu etc.) prayer at my school I would do my own thing and pray to Jesus, but forcing someone into it, I believe is wrong. but that wasn't the case here.
Joshua Stalnaker If the lawsuit was aimed at the kids praying it's one thing, if it's the school, like the football commentator who is payed by the school (in turn is payed by the government, and taxpayer), then it can't be done. The government cannot do that, like it or not. The first amendment was put into place so there wouldn't be a government church, like there was in england. You can say that's wrong, and we should all be under a christian government, but I doubt you'll get much support for that, as it's just not what our country was meant to be. It's supposed to be a melting pot of every religion/race.
James Grimplin Jr I know I won't get much support cause unfortunatly nothing on earth can be perfect and this isn't heaven… but I do believe we can tolerate other religions or non-religions without them persecuting us left and right. Now people could say that we would be persecuting them but it's been proven 100's of time in History that when a nation turns to God they pretty much become invincible (Alot of is in Chronicles, Joshua leads the Isrealites into the promise land, and moses leads them out of egypt etc.) I think if we turned to God and truly meant it we would become a nation like isreal… Many people would at first think it is persecution, but since it would work I do believe many more people would come to believe in Christ… (I know this is really extreme, but sometimes you have to split seas, knock down walls, and die for what you believe)
It seems to me that this was not led by the school, however student led and allowed to be led. To me this is not a violation of seperation of church and state if students led the prayer. If a student of another religion wanted to lead a prayer, they are welcomed to. To me to NOT allow students to lead prayers would be a viloation of the 1st ammendment in that we are saying that they CANNOT have freedom of religion/speech. I can understand if the school enforced a prayer, or if the coach enforced a prayer, that would not respect the freedom of religion. However if a coach allows a student to pray, and the student is told that he cannot pray in honor of his personal religion, isn't that a violation to their 1st ammendment rights? If it's student led, it should be allowed no matter what the religion is. Students have a right to pray. As long as the prayers are not inferring racism or hatred, they should be tolerated and respected. If a student wishes to not participate in the prayer, that too should be respected. But to say a student cannot pray according to their belief is wrong.
God doesn't believe in atheist!
How can something that is imaginary believe in anything?
Mike Copeland, c'mon man you really arguing over a kid praying, let um pray, it's not hurting you or anyone else involved, if you don't believe that way then don't no one is forcing you to. Freedom of religion is freedom of religion, for everyone, christianity just happens to be more known here in our country but telling a kid he cant pray aloud is plain stupid, you can pray to God and not be a Christian. What's the answer then?
I am not saying he can't pray aloud. Feel free to pray aloud. I'm saying that the law says you cannot have the aid of the school or any school involvement.
Lets look at the writers of the Bill of Rights views on religion: Jefferson and Madison.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814.
James Madison:
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 – 731).
The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity (Letter to F.L. Schaeffer, Dec 3, 1821).
[T]he prevailing opinion in Europe, England not excepted, has been that religion could not be preserved without the support of government nor government be supported without an established religion that there must be at least an alliance of some sort between them. It remained for North America to bring the great and interesting subject to a fair, and finally a decisive test.
It is true that the New England states have not discontinued establishments of religions formed under very peculiar circumstances; but they have by successive relaxations advanced toward the prevailing example; and without any evidence of disadvantage either to religion or good government.
But the existing character, distinguished as it is by its religious features, and the lapse of time now more than 50 years since the legal support of religion was withdrawn sufficiently proved that it does not need the support of government and it will scarcely be contended that government has suffered by the exemption of religion from its cognizance, or its pecuniary aid. (Letter to Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).
Get a life where in the world do you get your way on a constant basis day afrter day. I'm, amazed someone has not complained I don't like this insuructor because she is female or male or as far as their a human. Grow-up.
Atheists demand that the entire country practice their religion.
“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” — Matthew 6:5-6.
If you're going to defend the Bible, at least read it all.
Hey Justin,there is a difference between personal prayer and corporate prayer.Matt 6 is referring to the prayer life of a believer,being in one's prayer closet as part of the life of a disciple.Corporate prayer as the book of Acts demonstrates when believers gather and pray corporately…in one accord.If your gonna read it all…just saying.
This quote comes to mind "if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything"…If Christians don't stand up for their rights to pray, and every athiest, muslum tries to change the laws then we have fallen and become vulnerable.. Believe me you don't want us to do that I hear Shariah law is pretty tough… If we stop fighting, and something like that happens to American's you'll be praying… I may not have worded this as good as I wanted to, but I think the point is there…
Christians are under attack in the same nation that was founded hundreds of years ago on Christianity, not atheism. The muslims can fall on the ground in so called prayer in the city of New York and nothing is said as well as other religions doing so, but if a Christian prays – watch out. Those students and prayers who attend the football games are volunteering to pray, the schools are not forcing anyone to pray and neither is religion taught during regular school hours. Christians rights are being attacked by a miserable bunch of people who obviously don't have much of a life. If the atheist don't want to pray – don't – but don't pull anyone else down into that pitt of misery! Have you noticed how nothing at all is said about the filthy language in music (if you can call it that), or how far people's pants hang-down almost to the knees and with underwear showing. Have you noticed that no one protest about killings and rapes or immoralities comitted as much as you hear of protests about Christians?
See the other 100 posts that show why nothing you said is true. Happy prayers to you. Now stay away from trying to get the school to join your prayer.
Mike Copeland NO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think we should find a town we can set aside for just atheists send them all there and let them annoy each other and I think we should teach the a prayer to them. "DEAR WHOEVER PLEASE HELP ME KEEP MY NOSE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES BUSINESS".
Except it is you sticking. Your nose in other peoples business by attempting to use a public school as an means to deliver your message rather than simply expressing it on your own.
@Mike Copeland I understand you wish for the government to not push religion on citizens but doesn't the first amendment also provide us protection from government outlawing us from practicing religion, in this case prayer before a football game?
The govt is not outlawing you from practicing. It outlaws the public school from practicing. THis includes the use of it's speaker system and it's faculty members.
When we decide to 'protect' the minority groups from exposure to religious practices, don't we start to prohibit the free practice of religion? I don't believe this gentleman was forced to take part in these prayers. But if the school or government prohibits prayer in any form, aren't the oppressing the people that want to pray?
No, because you're still free to practice yours. You're not prohibited.
But it sounds like I'm not….
Christian Bowers Then I don't think your listening. Know this, you can pray anywhere at any time. Even inside public schools. The issue is the schools involvement in it. That's all.
Mike Copeland I'm listening…I just disagree with your conclusion. This gentleman's argument is that the school allowed the prayer at the game (probably in the school). So your statement that I am free to pray "Even in public schools" is incorrect.
Mike Copeland I'm listening…I just disagree with your conclusion. This gentleman's argument is that the school allowed the prayer at the game (probably in the school). So your statement that I am free to pray "Even in public schools" is incorrect.
Christian Bowers Ive actually talked with Mr. Green and you are wrong here. He complained about the prayer being played over the PA system at the game, Mike is correct 100%.
Katie Aerumnous thanks for the information. That makes a difference. Regards….
Christian Bowers Thanks Katie.
This is just another reason for the need to abolish public education and the education department. Institute vouchers so all parents can put their children in the shool of their choice. Christian parents can place there children in christian schools and atheists can put their kids in atheist school. Mr Green can try to put together his own football team at the local atheist school, with the (I think it is zero?) other children there. I'm sure he would enjoy both the silence and the solitude. He would certainly have to learn good sportmanship (something he obviously needs help with), considering he wouldn't likely be winning to many games with a team of one.
The text of the First Amendment in part states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…." America was settled by many groups escaping the religious persecution of their home country's national religion, the Church of England. Quakers and other religious believers in England were subject to severe penalty for practicing/believing anything other than the established national religion. The establishment clause, as it has become known, was written to prevent a national religion in the new United States. Somehow, those words have come to mean that an individual uttering anything "religious" on "government" property amounts to the government's endorsement of the individual's belief and constitutes endorsement of religion. The Supreme Court has decided it is so and we are therefore stuck with their decision. It is interesting to me that the term religion in this context is primarily used to assail traditional Christian beliefs. The U.S. Government threatened action against a Florida pastor who threatened to burn a Koran as a hate crime, but that isn't endorsing a religion….right. Arguably, religion is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." In that context, the sad reality is that "religion" of nonbelievers is what we are all forced to "practice."
I go to a high school football game every week in north Alabama. I have never seen anyone forcing a non christian to pray. If you do not wish to participate then DON"T! But don't ask the rest of us to join you on your path to hell. I know how to get to heaven. Being afraid to pray in public and allowing non christians to have an influence on me will only send me in the wrong direction. Just to clear, I am an Entitled Christian. By accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I am ENTITLED to spend eternity in heaven him. Can you say the same.
that's my girl
If you show up with your Christian prayer group at the game, sure, I don't agree with your views so I won't join in with you. I also won't complain either, I will just let you be. But if you think you can have the school broadcast your prayer over it's speakers, THAT is the issue. The school cannot participate, its the law.
Mike Copeland Is that Shariah law Mike?You say you are enforcing the law as all good moral policeman do,but it's more apparent you are opposing Christ followers.A man was just sentenced to 3 years of hard labor in prison in Egypt, for espousing what was deemed anti-Islamic statements on Facebook.Jesus said if your not for Me,you are against me.Where does that put you Mike?Where do you plan on spending eternity?I'm praying for you Mike in Jesus name.
John Buchanan nothing you said is on point. Please participate rather than proselytize.
Kim Martin Battles, please explain how silence from a loudspeaker sends people to hell.
I can see that your mother brainwashed you as a child with religious indoctrination… looks like you had a lot of choice in the matter…NOT! It's a clear example of child abuse..
Actually, the headline should be, to be accurate, " Atheists Step Forward to Defend the Constitution." Christianity is not under attack. Freedom of Religion is being defended ironically by those with no religion.
Let's engage in a hypothetical experiment. Suppose an imam was to offer a prayer to Allah before the game. The pastor would be among the first to protest, the Establishment Clause would be the basis for his complaint and atheists would be on his side.
And our history lesson for today. What group wrote Thomas Jefferson about the need for this?
A. Atheists
B. Jews
C. Muslims
D. Baptists
Answer: Baptists.
I don't remember anyone turning to the Secular Coalition for any guidance,answers or comfort on 9/11 after the World Trade Center was attacked?
John Buchanan John Buchanan We weren't organized then but there were plenty of non-theistic organizations that did everything they could to help victims. To this day organizations like http://militaryatheists.org/ (an affiliate of the Secular Coalition for America) support the troops defending all of our freedoms. That is just one example of the many secular charities that help everyone, regardless of their religion and with out proselytizing. Maybe we don't always do an effective job of trumpeting the good we do.
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago
John Buchanan says, "I don't remember anyone turning to the Secular Coalition for any guidance,answers or comfort on 9/11 "
We are not a goddamn church.
Helping others is certainly a worthy cause no matter the organization. But you may as well be critical of the ASPCA of not helping the Girl Scouts.
Providing help and emotional sustenance is what humanist and secular help organizations are for. We joined folks like the Red Cross (a secular organization), United Way and other such organizations. And we did it not expecting to get points for our immortal souls as we enter heaven. We didn't do it because some preachers asked. We did it because it was the right thing to do.
FIRST AMENDMENT:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
ARTICLE 11 OF TREATY OF TRIPOLI:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.
WHAT NOW, CHRISTIANS?
Hopefully some gun owner will take note of who the complainant is and where he resides…..
The! st Amendment also says….Nor Prohibit the Free exercise thereof…(the Free exercise of Religion).
And you're not being prohibited. So stop bringing this up.
Mike Copeland well actually, isn't that what this suite in the article is about. Filing suit because the football team prayed….Not during school, it was the football team maybe coaches….Not the school and not during school. That's why people are fired up…THis game had nothing to do with church and state seperation or anything else. People were praying asking God to watch over them. Then some athiest comes out of the woodwork and needs to use it to make a point….There lies the frustration……
Mike Copeland Prohibit to forbid (an action, activity, etc.) by authority or law: Iin this case according to your argument you may not pray here. Therefore it is a prohibition of the student's ability to freely exercise their religion.
Mike Copeland Prohibit to forbid (an action, activity, etc.) by authority or law: Iin this case according to your argument you may not pray here. Therefore it is a prohibition of the student's ability to freely exercise their religion.
Richard Gutknecht Um… The people can still pray. Pay attention. The ruling is that the school cannot be involved, nor can their equipment. The people can still pray. Get with it.
Tracy Hill- Modra The prayers were being led over the schools intercom system, which indicates the school issuing an endorsement of this particular religion. That's illegal.
Mike Copeland A school is not Federal Government Property, so therefore it does not even qualify under what you seem to believe the establishment clause extends to. But if you understand the founder's intent it was that the Congress could not establish a Mandatory Religion by law, e.g. the Church of England. Just because the Supreme Court has a ruling or two in your favor does not mean it is constitutional. The Supreme Court has reversed itself on several issues over the years. I support the Constitution as written and intended by the founders.
Richard Gutknecht The public school is a govt entity, paid for through our taxes. The supreme court rules that this applies. So you are wrong. You have the right to your opinion, but not to your own facts. No where in the constitution is Jesus mentioned nor is Christianity invoked. You clearly want to violate what was intended to enforce your religion on others. You are against religious freedom so don't ever say you believe in the land of the free.
Mike Copeland Schools are State institutions and States are sovereign and therefore are not Federal property. Even though I reject the premise that the establishment clause extends as widely as you proport. To understand the stance of the founders regarding religion and the reason for the establishment clause and the free exercise clause, one must look further back in history to the Declaration of Independence. This declaration refers to God several times. Religious freedom was one of the major grievances against the King of England. With that said, you will not find a direct reference to Jesus in the declaration. Why? Because even though most of the founders were christian to various degrees, they acknowledged it is up to each individual to choose their own path to God. Furthermore, Prayer was an integral part of the congress and to my knowledge congress still has prayers during their sessions. Is this unconstitutional? You mentioned to others would I be offended if a Muslim or student of another religion offered the prayer? No I would not. I have been in many situations where prayers were offered by others not of my faith. I am not offended. If someone tells me they will pray for me, I'm happy! You are correct the constitution does not reference God, nor need it as it is a document for governing men, but it does plainly state men should be free to exercise their religion and further explains a man's religion should not be a litmus test for serving in office. This idea that atheism is the only religion that can be exercised on government property is ridiculous. This idea that someone saying a prayer is somehow forcing their religion on someone else is a bridge to far. If you hear an advertisement on TV or radio for something is that forcing it on you? No, you have a choice to ignore it or act upon it as you see fit. Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty comes with freedom and individual responsibility. We seem to have lost touch with this aspect.
Richard Gutknecht The Establishment Clause applies in Federal and State situations. You can say that you don't believe it is meant to be that way all you want, but it does not change the reality.
We do have religious freedom and freedom of expression. That is not being violated at all. As a person or student you are free to have your religious beliefs and not be persecuted for them. You are also free to pray at any time. It is the school that cannot demonstrate favoritism for a religion, and a school official cannot use their position to further their religious agenda.
This law exists in order to protect religious equality, not to hold it back. As a fair person you should be for this, yet clearly you are not. You seem to want schools to push religion. I say to you what right do you have to take your religion into schools and push it on children who are not yours? Why do you feel that your religious belief should be able to supersede the wishes of parents of children who are not yours and then proceed to have schools favor your religious education upon them? It's absurd. That is the reason for this Law and the Supreme Courts understand this as the continually rule that the side you want is unconsitutional.
You make excuses for why the Constitution has no Jesus laws or mention and you point to the Declaratikn of Independance. The Declaration is not a legal document. It was a declaration of independence from England, and one of the issues they had was the oppression of free religious practice. So of course it's mentioned but that does not justify your claims that this is a Christian country. The Treaty of Tripoli specifically states that we are not a Christian Nation. George Washington has letterrs written to the Jewish community reassuring them of their religious freedom and that of the new country.
You cannot even have true freedom with a national religion. By the nature of having one you are limiting equality to others. The courts again continually rule against such notions, so again you are wrong.
We are a nation with a Christian majority. Thats it. We are not a nation that oppresses non Christians should their needs conflict with Christian desires. If you think we are or should, then you are not a believe in freedom and hope for a nation more like that of Iran biut a Christian equivalent. It I'll never happen.
Just as Corporations are not really people, schools are not really people either. the Supreme Court has given Double rights to the Peole who run Corporations. That is Treason. A school administrator has the Right to ask anyone to pray. On school grounds or off. No one can be forced to participate. If a member of gov.(state, local, or federal) is told they cannot call anyone to pray, they are being Denied their rights as citizens.
Gerald Donahue fortunately, you don't get to make up laws and define treason at your whim. It's ironic that what you think treason is, is what the Supreme Court rules as Constitutional Law. It's been said before, you have the right to your own opinion, but not the rit to your own facts.
The same goes to Richard above. I sent a rebuttal to you earlier but apparently it got censored. I'll just say again that you too know nothing about the application of the Constitution. Rights granted by the First Amendment are applied to everyone, not dismissed at a State Level.
the Supreme Court ruled that "people of color" were mere property(Dred Scott Decision) until another Court corrected that grievous wrong. They are only human, that's why previous court rulings get overturned. Just because the Court makes a ruling does Not make it right, or even constitutional…or even conscionable.
Mike Copeland – you probably should learn that the Bill of Rights, which includes freedom of speech, came long before any ruling on the Separation of Church and State. Therefore, our freedom of speech cannot be taken away by the few that oppose one's speech. That would violate arbitrarily the entire Bill of Rights and thus the Constitution of the United States of America. The founding fathers meant to prevent the government from forcing a government-endorsed religion, like the Church of England had created. Their intention by no means was to create a society without religion, which you and the liberal world are seemingly trying to do. That goes back to the socialist/marxist/maoist view that if you take God away from the people, you can control the people, which is happening in America right before our eyes.
I think Steve, that you need to learn the subject before you go off with this nonsense. This isn't a violation of your free speech. You are free to pray all you want. Do you get it? No one is taking that away. Go to the school and pray. You're free to. Get with the subject.
Just a quick question to all you Atheists out there. Do you believe in any Deity at all?
interesting, don't you think? these idiots say the school should not be endorsing religion by allowing the prayers to continue. so by allowing some students and a coach to express their first amendment rights to freedom of speech – that is the school endorsing a religion?
so. this group wants to infringe on the first amendment rights of individual students who may be doing this of their own free will and of their own doing – which they are legally allowewd to do by the way – so the school infringes on the first amendment eitehr way.
let's hope there are some common-sense judges that show these frivelous lawsuits the door as soon as it comes across their desks. "case dismissed". you lose that case, you're done.
that's the REAL wrong in america. not enough judges willing to put a stop to this madness by saying "case dismissed" or by saying "is a student lead prayer before a game REALLY going to disrupt YOUR life? no one is forcing YOU to participate….get out of my court room – case dismissed!"
where are the judges with B@LLS!
You're the idiot Matt, and you're a liar. No one wants to prevent free speech OR expression. No one cares if the students pray. ITs that the school cannot be involved because it impart of the govt.
sorry – i do not see hte problem is a group of students lead a prayer before the game. the school is completely out of this. this is a student lead prayer on publically owned land (the school grounds). they really have no dog in this fight. if that makes me an idiot, then i wear it with pride. at least i am nt an asshole (wear that one well buddy!) i hope the students start chanting "JESUS!" during the games! as for restrictions on the first amendment…can you say you are going to kill the president of the united states? no. can you yell 'fire' in a crowded theater? no again. so tell me prick. where was my lie? if you are going to call me a liar, then come on…point it out. but quit while you are behind, ok?
and of course, when mike DOPEland is challenged, he is silent…typical liberal
Matt Albrecht Im not a liberal dummy. Do you not have the capacity for a Bette comeback than regurgitating this hateful divisive response?
And BTW, the school backed off their prayers being broadcast over the PA system because they found out with just a little bit of research that what they were doing is unconstitutional, they admit it, and have ceased. So your rant was baseless and simple minded as your pathetic comeback of erroneously calling me a liberal.
Here is answer to maybe help. Have the moment of silence. But before the game hand out a prayer card and asked the people to read it to themselfs during that time of silence and that why whoever doesn't want to hear a prayer or read the prayer doesn't have to. I know it should not have to come to this but it has and we have to deal with it when it comes up. or tell everyone who wants to pray to come to the game 30 minutes before the game starts and have it then. This way people know when the pray will be and show up after it been said.
"Alabama town under atheist attack" way to spin the headline to convey such violence there Fox. Not biased at all.
Fight back Alabama. This group of terrorists, the FFRF, lodged the same complaint against us in DeSoto County, MS right when football season started. What used to be a barely able to hear prayer led by some little old man has now been replaced by hundreds if not thousands of parents and students leading prayer before and after football games. I was personally told by the FFRF that they only demanded it be stopped over the school loudspeaker…that is was perfectly fine with them if it was led by students and /or parents so that is what we do now. Trust me…they should have left well enough alone. It sparked a true revival here in DeSoto County that is still going on! Christians will NOT be silenced in the United States!
Lisa, no one wants you to be silenced, so stop the drama queen act. We just want you to stop abusing the schools for your personal faith.
Lisa, I find it ironic that you refer to the FFRF as as "terrorists" when practically every act of terrorism today is motivated by religion. It's especially ironic considering that most acts of terrorism in the US have been committed by Christians.
Man created god, not the other way around.
Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)
Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.
Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)
State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.
Christians are being "Attacked" by Atheist? I was born and raised in Alabama. NO ONE EVER STOOD up for the people who were being ostracized by YOUR SCHOOL lead PRAYER. Yeah… this student lead prayer reason is BS. OUR Principal invited local preachers to pray. I say GOOD for MR. GREEN, He is making It better for all those people too afraid to stand up to your Religious Reich.
if ya don't like the prayer – don't go – no one is frocing you to – there is no so-called Separation of Church and State in the constitution – that clause is from the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republic's constitiution. I'm going to steal a line form a prveious post atheist already have their own holiday-April first.
Thanks for taking the time to say nothing.
Copeland is not very bright – why is he spending time arguing about something he doesn't believe exists – seems kinda pointless – if someone said the easter bunny was real I wouldn't waste time arguing with him about it – just consider the source – also remember when you argue with fools it is often hard to tell the difference.
Hey dummy, the law exists, and that's what I am arguing for. Not to quick are you?
Copeland is not very bright – why is he spending time arguing about something he doesn't believe exists – seems kinda pointless – if someone said the easter bunny was real I wouldn't waste time arguing with him about it – just consider the source – also remember when you argue with fools it is often hard to tell the difference.
All the more reason to abolish state run educational system. private schools and the voucher program is the only thing that will save our nation and traditional values. When one person out of several thousand can interject their values , or lack of them, onto the rest of the population it it time to consider a way to protect the family and our country from ruin. Private schools would do a much better job and do it for less. People could send their children to the Hegel/ Marx school of atheists or the school of the global citizens if they so wish. The rest of us would be freed to have our children educated in the manner we deem appropriate without interference from a very few malcontents that cause problems , JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.
By hte way these are the same people that are trying to have a WWII memorial removed from Montana , which consists of a 25 ft sq plot leased from the Forest service and paid for and maintained bthe Knights of Columbus. Go to Congressman Denny Rehburg's Home page to sign petition.
Oh, time to get off this site…people that read the crap on this site lack a sense of what "fair and balanced" reporting is…I just came in to see if they were still ignoring the Occupiers…yeah they are. BONUS! A parting shot to the god delusioned people here: "god" is just Santa Claus for adults.
The fool has said in his heart, there is no God-Psalm 53 v 1.
Quoting scripture is not convincing. In fact it demonstrates your inability to think for yourself.
Mike Copeland Aaaaaaah hahahahahahahahahahahaha….
Hey Mike,I would suggest you learn some scripture.One day you will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and have to give an account for your life and the jumbo tron will play and you'll even have to give an account for every idle word,like the words you use to speak against Christ and His followers.I'm praying for you Mike in Jesus name
Hey Mike Copeland, you might want to read George Washington's Prayer Journal-Abingdon Press New York 1919-I beseech thee, my sins remove from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west and accept of me for Thy Son Jesus Christ, that when I come into thy temple, and compass the thine alltar, my prayer will come before you as incense.You do remember George Washington?
American hisory fact-24 of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, held seminary or bible school degrees.David Barton does a great job of communicating truth of Americas founding fathers and their faith-www.wallbuilders.com.
To Mike Copeland: I complement you and envy your ability to clearly state the correct legal position about this matter of prayer implicitly endorsed by public schools. It amazes me how many just don't get it…that it is illegal for school administrators to allow prayers, Christian or otherwise, to be broadcast over the loudspeakers at a football game. No one's freedoms are being taken away; on the contrary, everyone's freedoms are being protected. The tryanny of the majority has to be subdued or it will run roughshod over the minority…especially over a minority of one. That's what the Bill of Rights are all about.
Thanks Arlen, we have explained it countless times in here yet it's still going over the head of too many bloggers.
Take a look READ THIS BOOK! http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights.html
I would recommend Mr Green read the book ORIGINAL INTENT by David Barton so that he can correctly understand our nations Christian heritage. He might actually want to read the bill of rights which does NOT say anything about separation of church and state. The phrase was mentioned by Thomas Jefferson addressing the Danville Baptists in CT. He might also want to remember that Jefferson did not have anything to do with writing the Bill of Rights since he was out of the country. It is also interesting to note that Jefferson spent several years attending worship services in the capital building in Washington. I don't see why he would have a problem with students voluntarily praying in the name of Jesus.
So the Atheists (Democrats) argue that the 1st amendment, the one that restricts the Government from impeding the free exercise of religion, is the amendment that they wish to stomp on so that their 1st amendment rights will take precedence over the 1st amendment right s of all the other people in that school and school district. I feel like everyone in America must be taking CRAZY pills. This separation of Church and State horseshit foolishness has got to stop. The 1st amendment of the U. S. Constitution in plane English.: The government will not create a law forcing you practice a religion of it's choosing (No National Religion) The Government will NOT keep you from being able to practice your own Religion (You don't need to move to Plymouth Massachusetts to do what you do in your church) You have the right to say whatever you like (Not wherever and no one is forced to listen to you) The Government can't make a Newspaper or any media outlet these days print or say anything or nothing (Papers can be sued for slander and it doesn't excuse them to tell lies or spread rumors or to act as a traitor to this country by giving away government secrets that could harm our Country or our fellow citizenry) You can gather together with anyone you like (so long as you have the proper permits) and finally we can sue the government if it does us wrong and we may ask for it's help if we think that we need it..
That's it. No separation of Churches or States or anything even similar in there. It was all made up by the Atheist Democrats in the early 1960s because the Republicans were finally able to get so many of it's equal rights pieces of legislation shoved down Kennedy and Johnson's throats. Well, that's not exactly why they made up the lie about there being a separation of state comment in our Constitutional Bill of Rights. Bills of Rights never contain Bills of Restrictions! That should be everyones first clue that it's all a big fat lie!
Many of the founding Fathers were NOT Christians say the idiots who get their News and Information inside of Trojan Boxes. Actually all were Christian except Thomas Pane and Ben Franklin who believed in a "God" though not necessarily Christ as his Son. Just like a lib to shovel crap and call it "top Soil". You are definitely a product of Government Schools and after 1965 at that. Actually try to read some of the History you are parroting from your lib pals. You numbskull always try to recruit kids or like minded in to your croup. Why try doing it with lies? You know you will be shown what you are. You believe that somehow on your word alone everyone will fall for your line and that';ll be the end of it? When you can't win an argument with facts you make up your own! Don't listen to this idiot kids. He is just a numbskull recruiting for his anti-reading numbskull academy. Believe what you like about who should or shouldn't be allowed to do what in their School, but don't fall for the lies these clowns are selling. America was founded by Christians and the tenants of Christianity is what made us try to be fair to the point that we let these scoundrels have too much power. Power they did not earn nor do they deserve. Conservatives are tired of carrying freeloaders around on our backs and slowly yet surely things will straighten out again. You will have to actually read and study in School. You will have to work and make your own way, as it should be and LIARS are called out as Liars when they try to fill your little heads with their crap.
If the people at the football games don't like the prayers than don't stand up are bow your heads just sit there and shut the hell up. Tell me how can something you don't beleive in bother you.Here in Coweta Ok we pray before all football games and we even have a christain classs u can take in high school so take the u Atheist and put it where the sun don't shine. You Freemdom from Religion Foundation people needs to get the Hell out, U are like a roach trying to infest but U will be wiped out in the long run.
I don't believe in atheists haha Each and everyone of them have proven themselves agnostic at best. Anyways, don't we have a 1st Amendment? I'm fairly certain it sates Freedom OF Religion, not FROM religion. To me and I may be wrong, ahh ya not really, we Americans are free to practice our religion, excluding human sacrifice and maybe dogs and cats. Not sure about cats lol Just kidding, I love cats, taste like chicken. But if someone prays to what they think their god is and that meaningfulness offends you, get the hell out of my country because we don't need anymore stupid mean people trying to force there agenda down our throats. So if someone wants to pray to Jesus, ala or buda, the sun or who or whatever, shut your mouth for the damn minute they need and move on with your sorry pathetic mean little existence. In Jesus name I pray
Regardless of what the Religious Right says, not only were we NOT founded as a Christian Nation but the founders would be appalled at the hold religion has on people in the US today. If people want to believe in myths and fairy tales that is their business, but forcing it on others stomps on everyone's rights.
Our founders envisioned a Nation steeped in the principles of the Enlightenment, yet we have become the laughingstock of much of the world due to the intensity of religious beliefs. Religion controls, threatens and is the biggest enemy of rational thinking ever invented by the mind of man.
Since the Christian god supposedly "has a plan", asking him to alter that plan by praying makes no sense. Petitioning a deity to intercede in a football game? Does anyone not realize how ludicrous that sounds when there are intense and appalling events going on all over the world? And if I sound angry, I am. We non-believers, who are picked on for no other reason than we chose not to believe in ancient mythology, are tired of being the bad guys. And BTW, lightning is not caused by a god's wrath….
Oh, and just because the majority of people believe in something doesn't make it true.
Hey Sharon,were you there with the founding fathers?
No, but neither were you. The fact they never mentioned "Jesus" once speaks for itself. It is a FACT they were Freethinkers and believed in Enlightenment principles. That is what they founded this Nation on, not Christianity.
No, but neither were you. The fact they never mentioned "Jesus" once speaks for itself. It is a FACT they were Freethinkers and believed in Enlightenment principles. That is what they founded this Nation on, not Christianity.
Sharon Hutchinson Hey Sharon,as a native Washingtonian,I can say I've been through all the capital grounds,Washington monument,museums,several times and have seen all the inscriptions.If anyone studied American history,they would see the truth.The greater majority of our founding fathers were pastors and teachers of the word of God.Anybody can easily google faith of the founders and find that.The prayer journals of George Washington.The travels of Benjamin Franklin going to George Whitfield revival meetings,who was the Billy Graham of his generation.If you choose not to believe that's okay.God gives everyone free will,to choose to have a relationship with Him or not.But please don't try to tarnish the legacy of Americas heroe's to fit your agenda.These men weren't running from England because they were faithless.They would roll over in their graves if they heard you say that.I would challenge you to see the truth about the founding fathers of this great nation at http://www.wall builders.com and you will see that David Barton has researched extensivelly,America's spiritual roots.
Everyone in this wonderful country has freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You can pray or choose not to. If people didn't want christians to be silenced then groups like FFRF wouldn't exist. It's a crying shame that people cannot just do as they please when it comes to praying or not praying. No one cares if people don't join in prayer…why should other care if some do pray? Like I said…all the FFRF did was stop a little old man from offering a blessing for the players, officials and people who are traveling to and from the game. You could barely hear him…over the school loudspeaker. I want to thank the FFRF for stopping this because now we can pray together and be heard more.
…… In The Beginning…. Man Created God….
Be not deceived,God is not mocked for whatsoever man soeth that shall he reap Galatians 6 v 7
Hey Michael, i have a question: if God did not create all things, then where have all things come from?
Did all things come from nothing? The answer is obviously "no". Since all matter is not eternal which has been confirmed, it must have an origin. Therefore, something must have created all matter and, indeed if it was created, it had to have been created by something greater than the matter itself – ergo, their is God, He created all things.
First of all this whole separation of church and state is crap! No where in the Constitution does it call for separation of church and state, the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Tell me, what does a bunch of high school football players praying have to do with Congress establishing a religion? By stopping these guys from praying does violate the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause. This whole thing makes as much sense as the Muslims suing a Catholic School because they don't have a "prayer room devoted to them that does not have any symbols of Christianity! Get a life!
Yes it does, and the Supreme Court rules that way as well.
Nice to know your stance however. You apparently believe the govt should be legislating Christianity on people and destroying freedom in this country. Sorry, you are not getting your hateful way.
Mike Copeland: so you agree with Al Miller that "by stopping these guys from praying does violate the prohibiting the free exercise thereof clause". In addition, just so you understand, the Supreme Court is not above the Constitution, the Constitution is the Law of the Land. The Supreme Court is strictly suppose to apply the Constitution to the arguement of the one(s) presenting the arguement – ergo, the Supreme Court is under the Constitution
Has it occurred to the Bible Believing Christians that Jesus might not want to be included in public prayer. He seemed to make him self clear on that issue. Matthew 6:1-6
1Take heed that yes do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise yes have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Has it occurred to the Bible Believing Christians that Jesus might not want to be included in public prayer?
According to the legend, he seemed to make him self clear on that issue. Matthew 6:1-6
1Take heed that yes do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise yes have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Wow,an atheist organization quoting scripture.Does that mean that you guys recognize the bible as truth?The apostle Paul said in Romans 1 v 16-For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ,for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes,to the Jew first and also to the Greek.We as God's people are not ashamed.We will lift up the name that is above all names,King of Kings,the Lord Jesus Christ at football games,Nascar races,family picnics and outside taverns,in hospitals and homeless shelters,state and federal prisons and anywhere else that God leads.I will lift up the name of the Son of God,the one who loved me and gave himself for me.I am unashamed.
@John Buchanan: Like we don't hear this every time we quote your big book of multiple choice. I am pointing out the hypocritical Christians who ignore their own instruction book. No we don't believe it and apparently Christians who violate its commands don't take it seriously either. It seems they have a problem obeying any sort of law at all.
Secular Coalition for Alabama Apparently Jesus didn't obey your laws either,and all the God mockers of that era thought they got rid of Him and His followers,but guess what? He rose again.He's alive and seated at the right hand of the Father.He took the keys to death,hell and the grave.You will see Him soon when He cracks the eastern sky and He comes on a white horse with fire in His eyes.Oh the terror and fear on that day.
Secular Coalition for Alabama Apparently Jesus didn't obey your laws either,and all the God mockers of that era thought they got rid of Him and His followers,but guess what? He rose again.He's alive and seated at the right hand of the Father.He took the keys to death,hell and the grave.You will see Him soon when He cracks the eastern sky and He comes on a white horse with fire in His eyes.Oh the terror and fear on that day.
OOooh! I forgot it was halloween!!! Wait…I thought jesus was god on earth,making jesus his own father ,and god…see! thats just crazy talk!
John Buchanan – sadly you are completely misinformed om so may things. Your preacher, Fox News and the Bible are all unreliable.
The Lauderdale County Schools finally realize that they must follow the law. http://timesdaily.com/stories/Schools-will-not-lead-prayer,183874
Secular Coalition for Alabama: your insults are weak and your ingorance is revealed when you state "your big book of multiple choice." The Bible is not multiple choice, so you really might want to refresh your memory and re-read it. Also, your arguements are so lame and do not follow any logic at all – to say "It seems they have a problem obeying any sort of law at all" is a statement that Christians are anti-laws; you have not established that at all in your statement. Humans (we) are flawed and do sin – we are not perfect nor do we claim to be perfect. So, if you are going to argue a point, try and do it constructively and try to apply some logic, that is of course, if atheists do have logic.
Jack Paschal: you make no sense at all…
@Dave Moreland: Anyone who know anything at all about the Bible knows that no two sects of Christianity agree on any point of doctrine or dogma not excluding what they consider to be the proper form a prayer. Multiple choice is not an insult, it is simply a factual observation. Christians can never get their own house in order.
Secular Coalition for Alabama: yes, I do agree (to some extent) with the statement "Christians can never get their own house in order". Yes, we often do tend to stick our noses in other peoples business instead of focusing on what WE can and should be doing. However, we should also stand on what we believe and not be ashamed in shouting it from the rooftops.
Dave Moreland That's fine so long as the roof tops are not the ones we must all share. The wonderful thing about the First Amendment is that it gives you the right to free speech and free exercise and it keeps government out of religion. So long as you don't ask the government to support your particular religion, as the Christians at Brooks did when they insisted that the school offer prayers ( a clear, deliberate and egregious violation of the Constitution) it's fine. Remember the government that can approve prayer can also prohibit it.
"We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism. We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. " Ronald Reagan October 26, 1984
Charles Raymond Miller: "so long as the roof tops are not the ones we must all share" has nothing to do with the constitution or this argument – this post is about Government and Schools, not public places. I have never asked the government to support the Christian faith because my faith is not in the government NOR do I need the governments approval. And, it is important to note that your logic is flawed when u state the following: "don't ask the government to support your particular religion, as the Christians at Brooks did when they insisted that the school offer prayers" – the school was not asking the government to support the prayer and again, they did not put a gun to anybody's head and say "you must pray or we shoot you"…if they did not want to pray, then they can stand in silence.
In addition, do you feel it is an "egregious violation of the Constitution" if a school has a Christmas party? Or celebrates Easter? Or recites the Pledge of Alligence? Or what if the school does something like "Operating Christmas Child"?
Secular Coalition for Alabama: it is always revealing whenever someone uses the phrase "anyone who knows anything about…" to attempt to make a point. This is a general statement with no foundation or support. Next, it is an insult when someone states that the Bible is multiple choice because, the Bible is NOT multiple choice it is completely contrary to that…either you believe it or you don't.
In addition, the phrase "it is simply a factual observation" is a joke of a statement.
Dave Moreland: Funny, you agreed with that factual observation.
I was at an event in Alabama that had a breakfast for the folks, including me, that had been there all week. They had a prayer while we were standing in line that mentioned The Carpenter. I did not bow my head and looked at the line. About half were looking at the line the same way. When our eyes connected we all smiled and I knew I was not alone at that event.
The complaint was lodged by a single resident who objected to the student-led prayer before high school football games played on school property.
I don’t get it…. The school didn’t fire up the megaphones and blast the prayer across the airwaves drowning out everyone, a student led fellow students in a prayer of their belief (Which was Jesus). Would this same resident have complained if they led prayer for Allah, Buddha, the Great Spirits, Mother Earth, a Higher Power, or No Power at all? They said their prayer on their time with their fellow believers. Nobody was forced or coerced into it.
To all the Jeremy Green's out there, I will pray for peace and understanding for you. Whether or not you believe in God is your choice, deep down inside I yearn for you to know Christ and what he has done for us all but again that is your choice and I will not cram it down your throat or make you listen to my prayers. I just request you to read the following passage:
Romans 12:14-21
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
This is what true believers of Christ live by. Would you have been anymore offended if they were telling inappropriate jokes, swearing, or cursing the fans in the bleachers? They bowed their heads and asked for protection from harm to themselves and I'm sure the other team. I don’t understand why any person wouldn’t accept blessings of peace and safety from their fellow man regardless of them believing or not believing in God.