PLAY
A group of New York City atheists is demanding that the city remove a street sign honoring seven firefighters killed in the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks because they said the sign violates the separation of church and state.
The street, “Seven in Heaven Way,” was officially dedicated last weekend in Brooklyn outside the firehouse where the firefighters once served. The ceremony was attended by dozens of firefighters, city leaders and widows of the fallen men.
“There should be no signage or displays of religious nature in the public domain,” said Ken Bronstein, president of New York City Atheists. “It’s really insulting to us.”
Bronstein told Fox News Radio that his organization was especially concerned with the use of the word “heaven.”
“We’ve concluded as atheists there is no heaven and there’s no hell,” he said. “And it’s a totally religious statement. It’s a question of separation of church and state.”
He was nonplussed over how his opposition to the street sign might be perceived – especially since the sign is honoring fallen heroes.
“It’s irrelevant who it’s for,” Bronstein said. “We think this is a very bad thing.”
David Silverman, president of American Atheists, agreed and called on the city to remove the sign.
“It implies that heaven actually exists,” Silverman told Fox News Radio. “People died in 9-11 but they were all people who died, not just Christians. Heaven is a specifically Christian place. For the city to come up and say all those heroes are in heaven now, it’s not appropriate.”
“All memorials for fallen heroes should celebrate the diversity of our country and should be secular in nature. These heroes might have been Jews, they might have been atheists, I don’t know but either way it’s wrong for the city to say they’re in heaven. It’s preachy.”
City leaders seemed dumbfounded by the atheists’ outrage because no one complained about the sign as it was going through a public approval process.
“It’s unfortunate that they didn’t raise this as an issue while it was undergoing its public review either at the community board level or when it came before the city council on their public agenda,” said Craig Hammerman, the district manager for Brooklyn Community Board Six.
Hammerman told Fox News Radio that the community was “solidly behind this proposal. Not a single person stood up to speak out against it. I think it’s a little late in the process for someone to be bringing this up now.”
The criticism brought condemnation from Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League.
“There’s more than a phobia about Christianity going on here,” Donohue said. “There’s a deep-seated visceral hatred of religion and particularly Christianity. That’s what’s driving this because most people who are not believers wouldn’t blink an eye at this.”
Silverman said he would not be surprised if atheists are vilified for their criticism of the street sign – suggesting they were simply being patriotic.
“If we’re opposed to this sign, we’re somehow opposed to honoring the heroes,” he said. “The attacks on 9-11 were an attack on America. They were an attack on our Constitution and breaking that Constitution to honor these firefighters is the wrong thing to do.
“The patriotic and right thing to do is to obey our own law and to realize that we are a diverse nation, a melting pot full of different views,” Silverman added.
The local and national atheist organizations said they’ve offered alternative names that would still honor the firefighters but without any religious affiliation. Bronstein suggested they call the street, “We Remember The Seven – 9-11.” He said that would be “more appropriate.”
But the city has no intention of removing the street sign. If that’s the case, Bronstein said he may consider a lawsuit.
Well they may not beleive in hell either but it will too late when they've arrived.
Well finally someone with some calhounes wow about time.
I think many religions believe in heaven, muslims go to heaven yeah they claim there virgins in heaven and others believe in heaven.
It is offensive to me if the sign is taken down so who wins? For a few and very few in this country the majority suffer? I think not
This has nothing to do with the separation of church and state. The consitution does not state freedom from religion it says freedom of religion. This has everything to do with these people being jackasses. Where in the constition does it say you have a right to go through life and never be offended.
The Constitution doesn't say "freedom of religion". It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of", which Jefferson said built a "wall of separation between church and state".
The Constitution protects the minority from the majority. You can't enforce your religious beliefs on us (through the government) and we can't do it to you. A "There Is No God Way" would also be unconstitutional. The government can't support any religious belief.
Well then they had better start removing all the street signs that refer to Saints.
They had better cover their eyes when they pass a church or temple or mosque in case some religion comes pouring out the door and attacks them.
Pathetic.
Oh, and they should stop carrying momney around in case the word God will attack them as well.
The separation of church and state means that states cannot start a church. Learn your history!
I am aesterbunnyian but I have yet to see an athiest who is not in actuality an anti-theist trying to shove their religion of non religion down everyone elses throat.
Well then, you should meet me… Im an athiest because thats what i believe but i am very respectful of other's beliefs and I wouldn't dare thrust my beliefs upon anyone else. Trust me, there's a heck of a lot of atheists who don't "ram" their non-religion down your throat. Well, at least in my country and a lot of the rest of the western developed countries I've visited. The reason it seems like you've yet to meet them is because they seem just like normal people and you are probably unaware of their beliefs.
Atheists are convinced there is no afterlife and Christians are convinced there is. The problem with this, for the atheists, is they are never going to know if they are right and the Christians are never going to know if they are wrong. So, for the atheists, either there is nothing after they die or they get to burn in hell for their nonbelief. No wonder they are all so angry and mentally disturbed.
You're wrong, I'm an atheist and tend to believe in after life.
This is the logic. There are two states: 1) dead, 2)alive.
Therefore before I was born or conceived I was not alive. This is the same as being dead. So I went from the state of being dead to being alive. This is a fact that has already happened. After I grow old and die, I will again be dead.
I've already gone from being dead to alive once that I know of for sure so it's easy to believe that it could happen again in the future.
This is pure logic and a no brainer.
If you read books on quantum physics you also get a different perspective on things, Try it.
I'm an atheist and believe in an afterlife and believe in this on sound evidence.
There are two states. 1) dead, 2) alive.
So before your conceived you must be in a state of death. Then you become alive. Then you grow old and die.
So there is proof that you can go from being dead to being alive. It's already happened so after you grow old and die you could be born again. There is proof.
Where is the proof that when you die you'll be dead forever ??
After an infinite amount of time you will never come back. Where is the proof for this ???
It's not "unfortunate" that they didn't bring this up during the public process; it's DELIBERATE. They want the power of forcing everyone else to kowtow to their religious opinion. (Yes, atheism is a religion, one without G-d. Like Buddhism.)
These guys see no contradiction in 1. declaring that America has diverse viewpoints and 2. demanding that their "conclusion that Heaven doesn't exist" be the only religious viewpoint expressed publicly in our society.
"These heroes might have been Jews, they might have been atheists, I don’t know" – is it really that difficult to find out? No. I think the heroes who we lost – Lt. Joe Gullickson and firefighters Terrence McShane, Pat Byrne, Brian Cannizzaro, Sal Colobro, Tom Kennedy and Joe Maffeo – are not important to you at all, Mr. Silverman; they're just abstract objects that you hope will be a means to your ends.
(BTW – Jews do believe in Heaven, and we don't need Atheists to defend us from memorial street signs. We're much more thick-skinned than that.)
What about the atheist fireman. I certainly would not want my name associated with a sign like this.
It would make me physically ill if a member of my family was "honored" this way.
How about " Seven fallen heroes are now in the hands of ZEUS"
What about that one ??
I'm an atheist, and I'm appalled at these people. This country is about freedom of religion. I'm free to be an atheist and these people are free to have their sign about heaven if they want. It doesn't offend or even affect me. These people are just creating a problem where one simply does not exist, and they are doing it for attention. Plain and simple. And it's pathetic!
I am so tired of the minority dictating to the majority. If they don't like it here, get out. We are a Christian nation, and those wanting to take God out of everything & getting their way is sickening. It's high time we Christians start to speak up and quit letting these non-believers have their way.
Amen!!!
Why are atheists such a-holes?
Obviously atheists lack the courage of their convictions. They are scared silly that believers may be correct in their beliefs. Therefore any reminder that they may be mistaken serves to increase their anxiety about their probable fate should there acyually be an afterlife.
Why are you so close-minded that you lump all Atheists in as assholes?
This is hateful. As a Christian, let me just tell you that Jesus himself would NEVER justify your comment. And, I don't have to guess at the mind or will of Christ – it's very clear in God's Word. God loves atheists just like He loves Muslims, Christians, Jews, and every single other person in the whole world. Doesn't mean everyone's doing what they should do to be clothed in Christ on Judgement Day, but if God loves them and Christ died for them, how dare you say such a nasty thing about them?!
When are we going to stop reacting to these rodents among us. We should never give in to a minority group. It's becoming a scary trend. This politically correct society we are living in has got to go. Atheists are nothing more than trouble makers just as the Black Panthers are. It's a shame these groups try to ruin our life and everything around us. We must stand up and stop this.
Yeah lets burn the witches too (minority group)
I've been atheist since I was four years old and I don't disbelieve in God. I just put the probability very low. If God wants to punish skeptical people he's doing a good job.
I need hard evidence to believe in something and I guess God doesn't like skeptical people because he could change my mind with one little easy thing. It's called proof. Simple. So why am I not getting any????
That is a very good point you make mikey! Why haven't they ordered all places of religious worship to take down their signs? No signs, no crosses, no statues…that goes for Angels too, since they will remind people that "There is a place called 'Heaven'" The funny thing I find is, that if "God does not exist, and not just the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, anything called god, why does it "bother" them so…If God doesn't exist, why does it matter so much to people? Because through their attitudes, they show louder than words that "GOD" does exist! >:-)
I think they should remove all references to religious matters in public places. It will take time but it is only right.
I welcome all religions in this country, but please keep it out of the public, tax payer funded objects.
We have come along way and will keep working at it slowly.
I have no religion and my mother was lutheran and father was roman catholic. My wife is hindu and has dropped it.
I've told my children that they can believe in whatever religion they wanted to because I don't believe children should have any religion imposed on them but it should come from inside.
Guess which religion they picked? Right "none at all"
My wife of 20 years was never so glad to find out I had no religion, in her words. " I always thought it was a bunch of nonsense but had to go along with it because I was forced to and everybody pressured me into it"
This was one of the happiest times of her life to find out she had religious freedom, after we were married.
1. There is no law requiring seperation of Church and state.
2. There is no right not to be insulted or offended.
3. There are way too many lawyers.
Johnnycab you are correct three of 3! That is better than most politician can do. It is certainly better than lawyers can do.
As a retired firefighter/emt, I am offended by this attack on a simple sign in remembrance of those who fell on that tragic day. Why is it that it's all right to offend me (as a firefighter & Christian) by removing all references to God and Christianity in this country, but it's not all right to offend a non-believer?
Because of separation of church and state.
Street names are paid for by taxpayers!!
Any other non tax funded signs can say all of this.
What's so hard to understand.
I'm sure the atheistic fireman in this country wouldn't want this street name.
The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." We as Americans are not to be prohibited our free exercise of Religion. Hence, atheist shall stop worrying us about there being such an issue. As a firefighter, I am proud that our fallen brothers are recognized for the ultimate sacrifice for the victims of 9/11!
You're right but they should not be spending taxpayers money (on signs) that promote one particular belief.
If I was one of the deceased firefighters and had no religion, I would not want this sign.
Would you want a sign associating you with witchcraft or Apollo or Zeus that was put up after your death and there would be nothing you could do about it. Like this street name "Paula is now one with Zeus" and you are a christian !!!
Now do you understand.
"… it’s wrong for the city to say they’re in heaven. It’s preachy.”
Is it not preachy to insist that they are not in heaven or that heaven does not exist? Is that not a statement of religion? (Definition of Religion: application and practice of a theology, such as Christianity, Judiasm, Muslim, Atheism, etc…).
One must choose to be insulted. It is impossible to be offended unless you choose to offended. We tolerate each other, without being offended. That is the … [human] thing to do.
They aren't asking for a new sign to be put up saying the firefighters AREN'T in heaven. They're asking for a new sign to be put up that doesn't claim they are. Do you understand that there is a difference?
A sign, put up by the government or on government property, would be equally unconstitional if it said "There is a God" or "There is no God". The government is required by the Constitution to remain secular, and to abstain from having a religious opinion.
As johhnycab23513 correctly assessed, there is no constitutional provision stating that there be a separation of church and state. Way too many idiots are getting way too offended at anything that contradicts their point of view.
I am offended by Bronstein and Silverman's view, it implies that there is no heaven! As fo the belief in heavan, Christianity does not have a lock on that belief, get over it.
"Heaven is a specifically Christian place" is quoted is this piece. Does that mean Jews and Muslims don't have an afterlife to look forward to? Anyone know if even one of these people who gave their lives in the line of duty and to help mankind were non-believers or atheists?
Just when you think that bizarros have hit rock bottom out pops creatures like this……I'll bet that they wear Obama T shirts to Coney Island and proclaim Hope Nad Change
May I point out the WBBC to you?
Why do keep kissing a,,, Why don't we just tell themto shut up or leave our country !!!!
FED__UP
Which country ? I'm in Canada.
Are you telling me I should leave Canada and maybe go the the US where I have dual citizenship and protest this sign?
We've had enough of these taxpayer funded signs with religious messages.
How about this "seven firefighters have reached nirvana" I like this one better. How about you.
As person with a very high IQ, I am deeply offended by excessive stupidity… do I go around suing? No! I'd be a multi-trillionaire by now if that were the case. If you don't like the name of the street, don't live or drive on it. Give me a break. These people need a hobby.
OK lets rename all of the streets. What then.
"Seven Firefighters are with their Seven Virgins Forever"
It's the principal of the thing. If you don't stop it in the bud it will proliferate.
I guess that the only way to prove that God, does indeed exist is to send them for a quick visit before they descend into the depths of hell.
I am a skeptic and I guess god hates skeptics because one little tiny thing would change my mind but God has not done this simple act for me. This act is to give me one little bit of proof. I am 55 and I'm still waiting for proof. Tell me why God doesn't give even the smallest bit of proof for us skeptics????
I guess being skeptical is a "Sin" .
I hope that this is the straw that breaks the atheists strangle hold on this nation. Their mis-representation of what our constitution says has never had a basis in fact. There is nothing that says there is to be a seperation of church and state. It does says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". What is it about atheists that they can not understand this simple one sentence statement? Are they really THAT stupid?
They better be rounding up Obama for breaking the War Powers Act … put that dude in jail where he belongs.
U.S. gave Osama bin Laden RELIGIOUS ceremony following his death yet we have an outcry from left and atheists over honoring our fallen heroes? I want to open my kitchen window and shout: I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. Ya with me?
Lindawyatt, You bet we are with you!
Read the Constitution indeed — the first amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Since Congress didn't make a law "respecting an establishment of religion" then these atheist's ridiculous over sensitivity is completely unfounded. Atheists are the biggest bunch of whiners, but then we know this is really not about the Constitution, but another attempt by atheists to shove their unbelief down our throats.
Christian = Because I believe
Muslim = Because I'm an idiot
Agnostic = because I don't know
Atheist = Because I'm an asshole
Kent Perry = Because I'm an ignoramus
I'm with ya! But don't just shout out the window! Stand up, and get out there and DO something. Go and start or join a tea party (particularly one that is Christian-based) or just be creative (as Glenn Beck is suggesting we do) and start a group or organization around an issue you are passionate about. This is likely to be the last generation that can turn this country back to the Judeo-Christian values we were founded upon. It's sink or swim. And we better swim – NOW!
Cm'on atheists, you're better than this. Don't be offended by others' need to reveal their crocodile tears in this Disneyesque way; you know it doesn't mean anything, really, other than a self-serving gesture on the part of the initiators of the sign.
You can see the scene, can't you? "Oooh, what can we do to really show how empathetic we are…". Fortunately none of this brouhaha detracts from the courage of the men, some of whom died, who did what they said they would when they went to work that day as on every other day; it doesn't need a street named after them to live in my memory.
I find atheists very offensive and would appreciate them leaving my Christian nation.
"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
– George Washington
"Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals." – George Washington
"It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."
That quote is inaccurate. It's a fabrication by people such as yourself trying to support their own beliefs. You should check the validity of things before representing them as fact.
But, I guess I shouldn't expect people such as yourself to make sure their beliefs are grounded in reality.
Constitutionally- That street sign doesn't constitute a breach of separation of church and state. It does nothing to establish a national religion. I don't see anyone pushing a particular religion. Someone needs to read the constitution rather than rhetoric.
On the religious note- Heaven is NOT just a Christian concept. It is also Jewish (Christ was born Jewish). Other religions have a "heaven", but call it by other names in other languages.
I think someone needs a bit of tolerance for others who happen to have different beliefs. ie tolerance for Christians. It isn't a one way street!
God doesn't believe in atheists.
LRRP
Guess I don't exist then.
for equal opportunity and equal freedom of speech, let the atheists be allowed to put up their own sign in front of the other. let the sign read: In honor of seven who died and have gone on to their nothing reward.
"sign donated by us who have no souls. former apes who devolved into idiotic humans".
Your grasp of grammar makes it evident that I am indeed the one who devolved into an idiotic human.
Hey! Atheists! This is America, the land of the freedom of religion and beliefs! Get over it!
What part of the law of the land do you theist not understand. Keep your religion out of the public form.
Your fairy tale abrahamic religion started this hole thing in the first place.
So let's put up a sign that states history:
"85 to 90% of the police and firemen who died on 9/11 were Catholic. Atheists ran away."
If you do like living in a religous country, just ignore things like this sign, and names like St. Paul, St. Louis, New Orleans Saints, St Cloud, and streets Named after Martin Luther King, after all he was a Preacher.So why don't you wish God to go away in one hand, and crap in the other to see which hand fills first, then wipe your butt with Angel Soft toilet tissue.
I find it hilarious that all of you lump these idiots in with all Atheists. They're looking to cause controversy, and all you idiots fell for it. As me and other Atheists have stated, we don't agree with this, and we feel it's wrong too. However, this is not a Christian nation, and you forcing your religion on other people is wrong, just like the Atheists who shove their beliefs on others are wrong.
Stop lumping all Atheists together, and actually come up with arguments aside from general name calling. That's beyond low, and a tad pathetic.
I love you guys. The satire here is priceless. Thanks so much!
So if I would pass by an Atheist and say that that cappuccino I just had was heavenly delicious, I would insult him??
I am an atheist. I am not an idiot. I don't agree with making the sign using the word "heaven" on it. I also don't believe it's right to make an issue out of this and demand the sign be removed.
But, goddamn you christians posting in this thread are a bunch of atheist hating, intolerant a$$holes. I don't believe any one of you know what being a christian is about. Despite my godless, heathen views of spirituality, I have a number of years of schooling on what being a christian IS about.
This is not a christian nation. This is a SECULAR nation. Many of the founding fathers were atheist. That quote by George Washington is inaccurate.
All of you bible beaters need to do some research about the oppression against atheists before you try to play the victim.
Hey atheist you used the name of my God in vain and you prove by your name calling that I do not want to grow up to be like you. If you don't like the street, maybe you could go live on Alybaba Way or something. Yep, you guessed it, it's not in this country and you are FREE to leave any time!
Have you heard about the little boy that asked his atheist father.
Dad, do you think that God knows that we don´t believe in Him?
Silverman and Brostein LOL. From Uruguay, South America
Atheists aren't bad people…but the only ones who go through the trouble of representing Atheism never do their side justice.
Yes. they can be that stupid. And from the way things have been going since this political correctness took hold, they also think we are that stupid.
Atheist strangle hold? In a country where religion is as prominent as it is, I find your statement lacking and honestly laughable. What about the WBBC? Are you really THAT stupid to lump all Atheists in with these people?
as you know the courts and congress is stupid.stuped is stupid be ass holes they will always be.
Stupid !! I was looking for the law but you quoted it ""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Right "establishment of religion" This means they can't have a street sign law that respects the establishment of the christian religion.
Read it . You quoted it. Understand. It's the street sign law that is promoting the establishment of the Christian religion.
The street sign law is a "LAW"